A reminder "dogfights of the future" on History Channel

Just wanted to remind everyone that the excellent Dogfights series on History Channel is airing a new show tonite. Its all about hypothetical future air battles with next gen fighter aircraft. It looks really interesting

pretty good show...i enjoyed pretty nice to see the Berkut is realized though..

[edit on 11-5-2008 by djvexd]

I missed it as I was at my sister and brother-in-law's for swimming and a BBQ. I'm sure I'll make an effort to catch it eventually

reply to post by drock905


It was kewl.
The reshow is the one I caught Del. You probly coulda watched it around 1200.

I just happened to catch it. It was absolutely awesome! I would say that almost everything in that show was realistic, and that we already have most of that technology. Not sure about the Russians having a scramjet, though. The producers of that show obviously love and KNOW military aviation.

i saw the show. it was great.

one question though, for any pilot out there. would a pilot really do a cobra maneuver like that? wouldn't that expose the whole profile of your plane? I thought the cobra maneuver was more or less a Hollywood type thing, cool stunt, but not really usable. it was a hypothetical situation. i thought they may have thrown that one in there for coolness.

reply to post by JSR


The Cobra or Pugachev Cobra is a hotly debated subject here on the forums but most people with a a fair understanding of the events that take place in a dogfight would only recommend it as a last ditch attempt to throw off a boogie on your 6.

A case of a Kulbit which is a full 360 ish ACM is here in the youtube video listed below that actually worked. The difference here is a issue of the fact the pilot (Mugs) loses control of the aircraft. The Kulbit is different in the fact that its a Post stall maneuver that still requires you to be in control. So you could argue that this is its precursor.

The down low that most will admit to being true is that if a pilot uses the Cobra and misses he is a sitting duck since his energy is gone and energy/momentum in a dogfight is life.

If your interested in a lot of information on the subject an read a debate and even revive it just follow the link.
www.abovetopsecret.com...


[edit on 12-5-2008 by Canada_EH]

Thats what I was thinking. The Rafale would have had to be closer to the F-22 for the manouver to be effective. Also people are always bashing on the Russians because of this manouver and here are the "Experts" talking about it. Seems a bit hypcritical to me. And how exactly did we perfect the thrust vectoring technology in the F-22 the Russians have had it for years and theirs have 3D thrust vectoring. But at least they gave Pugachev credit for the Cobra right? lol

Edit: Also how did the F-22 engage in a dogfight? It should have killed the Rafale from miles away like people are always claming it can. Where are the AWACS detecting targets from miles away? I'm not saying it cant, I'm no expert, but I would like to know.

[edit on 5/12/2008 by 3vilscript]

[edit on 5/12/2008 by 3vilscript]

This pisses me off. I only caught the last 15 minutes of the show. I wasn't even aware of it.

Does anyone know when they will be reairing this episode? I tried to do a search on my satellite TV and found nothing for the next 2 weeks.

Breaks my heart.

reply to post by 3vilscript


I missed the show unfortunately so I'm unaware of the engagement that your outlining. Hope to see it on youtube or in the box set when i buy it.

reply to post by Canada_EH



I have it on my ReplayTV and will watch it tonight. I did see the blurb in question briefly and if I recall the scenario had the Raptor performing the Cobra to force an overshoot of a Rafale. However, Cobras to the bes tof my knowledge are NOT standard doctrine for the USAF and you had dammed better hope that it works otherwise if the guy has a wingman in a loose deuce formation stealth or not, the Raptor would be meat on a hook.

reply to post by FredT


well less of a hook then say other 4th gen planes but yeah it still has to overcome the same issues of lost energy but it is quicker in the recovery due to the fact of post stall control and maneuvering.

reply to post by Canada_EH



Agreed Im just thinking that as it pulls the manuver, a wingman say a few miles away may get a great hit off of his AESA radar or even his IRST system and be able to get off a shot while it is still manuvering out of the cobra. As it flops over to gain speed its IR signature would be elevated. I also thought (But could be wrong) is that the aft of the F-22 is its least stealthy side

Just watched it last night.

It was interesting and fun to hear from some of the insiders etc.

two nitpicks:

The narrator made several references to the Mirage Rafale which is incorrect.

Also he talked about the Rafale also being incorrect

Several of the scenarios were intersting esp. using the ABL in an air to air role. If they can get enough range on the sucker it may be plausable. However, while ballistic missiles are far faster than an aircraft, they are not able to manouver like them. Im not sure the nose mounted turret on the ABL is capable of dealing with a aircraft doing ACM.

I think it may be better used in dealing with the mach 5 Sams that hit the Raptors in the 2026 scenario.

I thought this show was pretty good.

I'm not too up to date on the newer aircraft anymore, but that F-22 looked pretty good in "action". I thought that the Army/Navy/Airforce was a bit cocky when they said that they would have air superiority for 2 decades or so. I would think that the Russians would be able to put up a plane that is just as good, if not better than the F-22.

I also thought it was somewhat dumb to just tell our potential enemys what the fighters strengths and weakness' were. I forget what they said, but some kind of low key radar or something could find the stealth F-22.

On another note, I wish that Dogfights would do more on WWI.

reply to post by ChrisJr03


Oh trust me they do plenty on WW2 air combat if you want a youtube link for episodes just ask. But unfortunately it sounds as if the next season has been cancelled so I recommend getting the box sets of the seasons.

All info published in the episodes is out in the public domain and not anything new by any means. Not to mention the show is under the careful eye of the USAF which isn't in the habit of slipping to many secrets on national tv shows

I have a question for the people that know more about aircraft and war tactics in the air. Whats better, Highly advanced F-22's in small numbers or les advanced SU-35's in grater numbers? I know that wars are'nt won in the air but in a batlle, lets say 5 F-22's vs. 20 SU-35's, what would be the outcome?

reply to post by 3vilscript


My personal belief would be that in a single engagement, the F-22's may well tear a large hole (half or more) in the Sukhoi formation. However, assuming that you knocked out 2 or even one of the F-22's the odds are much better the next day for the numerically superior force. When you factor losses not due to enemy contact into the equation it skews it even more. I'm not sure where the balance lies; that's the current debate. There are so many variables, it's really hard to say definitively. If I'm a pilot, I want the clearly superior machine; if I'm in charge of maintaining air superiority over a large area, along with tasking ground attack and reconnaissance flights, the more airframes the better assuming they are reasonably capable like the Su-35, imo. So for the average air force, I'd take 80 Su-35's over 20 F-22's for example.

reply to post by _Del_


I don't know Del, the F-22 capacities seem so far and above right now that even the 4 to 1 odds I may still favor the Raptor even in the long range maritime patrol mission. In fact given its range in areas like the Pacific Theatre it may even have a greater advantage given its flight range.

Or better yet if you put up say a few global HAWKS and then intersperced the F-22 the whole sensor fusion comes into play nciely and the supercruise ability means they could vector to threats outside thier inital patroll area.

[edit on 5/14/08 by FredT]

reply to post by FredT


I said for the average air force. The average air force isn't going to have to face F-22's. And if they do, I think they'll encounter severe attrition before they even take to the air to reach the F-22's. It won't matter what they are flying, because few of them will make it to the air. That being the case, the superior numbers would probably be more useful there as well.
The US finds itself in a position that they aren't going to have enough F-22 airframes to fill the maritime patrol mission. It'd be nice to just use the Global Hawks for everything except ASW, actually. The B-1R would be even better used in concert with the Global Hawk program.
I think the US will need more airframes than just the F-22 numbers projected. I don't think patching F-15 and F-16 airframes is a long term fix, and I'm not sold on the ability of the JSF to meet all it's objectives (particularly as it relates to cost and timeframe). They might do well to consider a bigger number buy for a slightly less capable plane like the Su-35 for multi-role and leave the F-22's for the air superiority mission(or better yet buy more F-22's).