So How Can One Mason Know That All Masons Are Innocent?

I have done a bit of reading regarding the Masons on this site and I have to say that I find that the arguments from Masons are lacking. The "I am in a Lodge and we don't practice world domination" argument is lame, excuse my opinion, please.

How do you know that a lodge halfway across the world isn't set up an international community service, as it were? Just because, so it seems, that anyone can gain a 32nd degree ranking in a matter of days doesn't mean that there are lodges that have different criteria set up for becoming a "32nd degree rank".

I'm just saying, Masons defending their own lodge is a valid endeavour, though the subjective nature of the rhetoric I see posted is sorely lacking.

But attempting to defend the whole of the organization and/or the name is a ludicrous passion when a priori logic necessitates that you don't know what is happening on the other side of the world.

I'm just saying, the "Masonry" conspiracy is possible. It is more likely that any 'conspirators' may just happen to be affiliated with Masonry, but the fact that some Masonic Lodges may be set up as an "international community service" headquarters is not impossible.

Originally posted by TrustMeIKnow
Just because, so it seems, that anyone can gain a 32nd degree ranking in a matter of days doesn't mean that there are lodges that have different criteria set up for becoming a "32nd degree rank".

The Scottish Rite in the United States had two jurisdictions, Northern and Southern and the procedure for obtaining the 32nd Degree is fairly similar in both. You are required to observe certain allegorical plays enacted to receive the 32nd Degree, although you are eventually, in time, expected to view all of them.

...but the fact that some Masonic Lodges may be set up as an "international community service" headquarters is not impossible.

Can you please elaborate as to what you mean by 'international community service' headquarters?

Hi TrustMeIKnow

Originally posted by TrustMeIKnow
How do you know that a lodge halfway across the world isn't set up an international community service, as it were? Just because, so it seems, that anyone can gain a 32nd degree ranking in a matter of days doesn't mean that there are lodges that have different criteria set up for becoming a "32nd degree rank".

Regular freemasonry is pretty consistent the world over - by definition it has to be in order to remain regular. Part of the "rules" of regularity is that Grand Lodges (as well as freemasons acting in an official capacity) don't make any comment or observation on non-masonic matters and don't get involved in politics or religion. This pretty much rules out most conspracy theories regarding freemasonry. Freemasons on this board who post are pretty confident in this because they know how the system works.

Let me give you an example. You imply in your post above that Lodges give the 32nd degree, but in actual fact a freemason would have to join an entirely different organization (called the Scottish Rite in the US) to get the 32nd degree. Only 3 degrees are practiced in the Lodge. This is not known by you (until now) but is well known by freemasons.

But you are quite right on one thing - the 32nd is treated very differently in different parts of the world. In the US it can be achieved in a few days but in England most members of the order (it's called Rose Croix in England) will most likely never achieve the 32nd degree no matter how long they remain members.

I'm just saying, Masons defending their own lodge is a valid endeavour, though the subjective nature of the rhetoric I see posted is sorely lacking.

We're talking about two different things here I think. defending ones own lodge is all about personal experience, and from personal experience I know my lodge is not up to anything bad. But beyond this, I have visited many many other lodges, and many many other freemasons have visited my lodge. I have never met anyone who felt differently about the subject. So am I qualified to say that freemasons as a whole are innocent of the whole luciferian baby-eating NWO thing? Absolutely.

As a side note - where is the personal experience of the anti-mason?

Then there is secondary experience - learning about something academically, or through the filter of a primary source. And then there is most anti-masonic material - third, fourth or fifth party information eventually becoming a self-sustaining carousel of myth, lies and exaggeration. One always needs to go back to the primary source wherever possible. It is a FACT that I know a great deal about freemasonry plus as an added bonus I am right here right now for you to question. The same cannot be said for anti-mason sources.

But attempting to defend the whole of the organization and/or the name is a ludicrous passion when a priori logic necessitates that you don't know what is happening on the other side of the world.

But due to the nature of freemasonry, plus the fact that I now happen to live on the other side of the world I am even more qualified to comment.

I'm just saying, the "Masonry" conspiracy is possible. It is more likely that any 'conspirators' may just happen to be affiliated with Masonry, but the fact that some Masonic Lodges may be set up as an "international community service" headquarters is not impossible.

Of course a masonic conspiracy is possible. Its just than in my experience it is very very unlikely indeed and there are far better places to look for corruption and sleaze than in the masonic lodge.

Have some people who happen to be freemasons been bad? Of course. Is freemasonry embarrassed by this? Of course, although no guarantees can be offered that the lessons taught will actually sink in, or that people might join for the wrong reasons. Can we blame the organization for the failings of a few of its members? Definately not, as the organization clearly and transparently tells its members to be "good", so if they are "bad" then that's their decision.

Despite urban legend, freemasonry is pretty transparent and far from the mythological "secret society". If someone wanted to usurp an organization to hide within and create havoc freemasonry wold be a pretty poor choice.

There are many freemasons on this site, some of whom have quite extreme (IMO) opinions on conspiracy theory. But we all agree that freemasonry is not hiding anything because we know it so well.

Or as your screen name so clearly says it - trust me, I know.

[edit on 5/10/08 by Trinityman]

Hi TrustMeIKnow

Originally posted by TrustMeIKnow
How do you know that a lodge halfway across the world isn't set up an international community service, as it were? Just because, so it seems, that anyone can gain a 32nd degree ranking in a matter of days doesn't mean that there are lodges that have different criteria set up for becoming a "32nd degree rank".

Regular freemasonry is pretty consistent the world over - by definition it has to be in order to remain regular. Part of the "rules" of regularity is that Grand Lodges (as well as freemasons acting in an official capacity) don't make any comment or observation on non-masonic matters and don't get involved in politics or religion. This pretty much rules out most conspracy theories regarding freemasonry. Freemasons on this board who post are pretty confident in this because they know how the system works.

Let me give you an example. You imply in your post above that Lodges give the 32nd degree, but in actual fact a freemason would have to join an entirely different organization (called the Scottish Rite in the US) to get the 32nd degree. Only 3 degrees are practiced in the Lodge. This is not known by you (until now) but is well known by freemasons.

But you are quite right on one thing - the 32nd is treated very differently in different parts of the world. In the US it can be achieved in a few days but in England most members of the order (it's called Rose Croix in England) will most likely never achieve the 32nd degree no matter how long they remain members.

I'm just saying, Masons defending their own lodge is a valid endeavour, though the subjective nature of the rhetoric I see posted is sorely lacking.

We're talking about two different things here I think. defending ones own lodge is all about personal experience, and from personal experience I know my lodge is not up to anything bad. But beyond this, I have visited many many other lodges, and many many other freemasons have visited my lodge. I have never met anyone who felt differently about the subject. So am I qualified to say that freemasons as a whole are innocent of the whole luciferian baby-eating NWO thing? Absolutely.

As a side note - where is the personal experience of the anti-mason?

Then there is secondary experience - learning about something academically, or through the filter of a primary source. And then there is most anti-masonic material - third, fourth or fifth party information eventually becoming a self-sustaining carousel of myth, lies and exaggeration. One always needs to go back to the primary source wherever possible. It is a FACT that I know a great deal about freemasonry plus as an added bonus I am right here right now for you to question. The same cannot be said for anti-mason sources.

And as a further double-bonus there are other freemasons on the board who know a great deal more than me about specific areas of freemasonry (e.g. I'm not in the Scottish Rite).

But attempting to defend the whole of the organization and/or the name is a ludicrous passion when a priori logic necessitates that you don't know what is happening on the other side of the world.

But due to the nature of freemasonry, plus the fact that I now happen to live on the other side of the world I am even more qualified to comment.

I'm just saying, the "Masonry" conspiracy is possible. It is more likely that any 'conspirators' may just happen to be affiliated with Masonry, but the fact that some Masonic Lodges may be set up as an "international community service" headquarters is not impossible.

Of course a masonic conspiracy is possible. Its just than in my experience it is very very unlikely indeed and there are far better places to look for corruption and sleaze than in the masonic lodge.

Have some people who happen to be freemasons been bad? Of course. Is freemasonry embarrassed by this? Of course, although no guarantees can be offered that the lessons taught will actually sink in, or that people might join for the wrong reasons. Can we blame the organization for the failings of a few of its members? Definately not, as the organization clearly and transparently tells its members to be "good", so if they are "bad" then that's their decision.

Despite urban legend, freemasonry is pretty transparent and far from the mythological "secret society". If someone wanted to usurp an organization to hide within and create havoc freemasonry wold be a pretty poor choice.

There are many freemasons on this site, some of whom have quite extreme (IMO) opinions on conspiracy theory. But we all agree that freemasonry is not hiding anything because we know it so well.

Or as your screen name so clearly says it - trust me, I know.

[edit on 5/10/08 by Trinityman]

reply to post by TrustMeIKnow


How can you know that any number of them are bad?
Any concrete evidence?

And I am not talking about what-his-face-from-prison-planet.

[edit on 10-5-2008 by WraothAscendant]

reply to post by TrustMeIKnow


Hello,

Let me assure you, there are organised and criminal Freemasons. Of course there plenty of law abiding Freemasons, but they know of the Masonic white glove treatment but do not lift a figure to put a stop to it.

I have been subjected to this form ritual abuse for nearly four years in the UK. The closest description I can give you of this horrifying experience is to ask you to imagine a sustained slander campaign, persistent stalking, mobbing at work, recognition and sneering by strangers, persistent and minor vandalism of property, covert surveillance including buggings at my home and repeated break ins with very minor thefts.

As far as I am concerned, the objective is to provoke a reaction from the target of Masonic hate with the consequences an opportunity for them to exploit. I have sought help from my Member of Parliament, David Lammy, who strangely insisted I must done something terrible to deserve this attack upon my person. I have also put my complaints to my local police station, Tottenham; they obfuscated and refused to investigate. They even refused to hand over to me cctv footage I secured under the Data Protection Act on a particularly aggressive stalking event as I went about my business.

The bottom line is that when Freemason decide to attack someone, and they do it all the time, they consider their target to be in their grip for life. This ritualised vendetta system is crucial for Masons on the make. It facilitates real estate theft, destroying business competition, controlling ex-spouses and furthering political agendas and careers.

The infrastructure of this kind of personal destruction employed by Freemasons appears to me to be a service that can be hired. I do recall a few years ago, in the US, several postal worker went berserk resulting in shooting sprees separately from each other after independently complaining of harassment and stalking at a time the US government was encouraging the management to union bust. Some of the postal workers were union reps and vocal individuals.

Finally, yes there are harmless individuals in Freemasonry but there are also vicious and criminal groups at the heart of this secretive organisation.

Originally posted by masonwatcher I do recall a few years ago, in the US, several postal worker went berserk resulting in shooting sprees separately from each other...

And what does this violent spree have to do with Masonry? Can you even remotely demonstrate that these events had any correlation with Freemasonry?

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

And what does this violent spree have to do with Masonry? Can you even remotely demonstrate that these events had any correlation with Freemasonry?

Apologies, I should have been clearer, it's getting rather late here in the UK. I should have said that the postal works had been harassed through organised stalking as practiced by Freemasons and cults.

reply to post by TrustMeIKnow

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[edit on 11-5-2008 by ChadAndrewATS]

Listen, watch, & read what ex high-degree freemasons have exposed:

Dude, how many other threads have you posted this. Is any of this your words, or content?

Is it possible that you are taking someone elses word for it?

reply to post by eye open doors

It's normal to take other peoples' words. I appreciate ex-high degree freemasons & I approve of their efforts to expose their former occult, so I glady use their words against you & other shills of the New World Order.

ChadAnrewATS,

Wow man, honestly, I believe you should take a step back from whatever is going on and take a deep breath. I do not belong to any organisations. If there is a New World Order I would be on the side of freedom, freethought, and love.

It is my opinion that the information you are spreading is bogus. If I felt it was real I would gladly from my heart support the truth. However, the one video I watched was clear bull#. An attempt at making a cut up of completely unrelated images and attempting to disinform the weak minded. It wasn't even entertaining.

I have not called you names, I would apreciate it if you would not call me names. Also, when dealing with conspiracy theories I have found it is healthiest to be wary of indulging in the fear.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Can you please elaborate as to what you mean by 'international community service' headquarters?

If it can be said that Masonry at times is community oriented then many lodges are active in community service relative to their specific community. In my opinion, it is completely plausible that a more affluent group of Masons would be more concerned about the international environment and as such their "community service" would be centered on a more expansive society (and many of the concerns inherent within such a scope).

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
The Scottish Rite in the United States had two jurisdictions, Northern and Southern and the procedure for obtaining the 32nd Degree is fairly similar in both. You are required to observe certain allegorical plays enacted to receive the 32nd Degree, although you are eventually, in time, expected to view all of them.

Are you being intentionally leaving information out...or are you unaware of the following?

Originally posted by Trinityman
the 32nd is treated very differently in different parts of the world. In the US it can be achieved in a few days but in England most members of the order (it's called Rose Croix in England) will most likely never achieve the 32nd degree no matter how long they remain members.

Incidentally, do we have a 32nd Rose Croix on these boards? I'm guessing probably not.

The above supports my arguement, which is centered on the possibility of Masonic manipulation and influence of international events.

One Mason cannot know what another Masonon the other side of the world is doing. So, how can one provide a blanket arguement for the whole of Masonry in light of this fact?

Originally posted by Trinityman
This pretty much rules out most conspracy theories regarding freemasonry. Freemasons on this board who post are pretty confident in this because they know how the system works.

Sorry. Bad Logic.

I know how the American governing system works because I am a citizen. Does my idealogical confidence in the wonderful system of checks and balances mean that Watergate was impossible? What about lobbyists influencing the direction of congressional vote? What about the Patriot Act? The Patriot Act favors War Profiteers and information corporations (The big guys who work with elecctronic communications as well as companies like ChoicePoint. Not to forget the computer companies who are busy writing the code for automated phishing techinques and pattern recognition softwares.)

My point is this: There is never going to be an organization that is immune to corruption. You can say that because your lodge is not apart of any conspiracy but you can't say that for all lodges. As well...your personal testimony over the internet is suspect. How do I know you are telling the truth?

For what it's worth, though, I do attribute a relevant amount of truth value to your words. The point and possibility still remain, however.

Originally posted by Trinityman
As a side note - where is the personal experience of the anti-mason?

I am not anti-Mason. So I am not qualified to answer that question.

Originally posted by Trinityman
But due to the nature of freemasonry, plus the fact that I now happen to live on the other side of the world I am even more qualified to comment.

The other side of the world from which perspective? From Me? Or from yourself? The point of that was to illustrate that there are always people you do not know and as such you cannot defend their ideals.

More qualified then whom? An anti-Mason? I would believe that.

Originally posted by Trinityman
Or as your screen name so clearly says it - trust me, I know.

My screename is meant to be ironical...

[Originally posted by WraothAscendant
How can you know that any number of them are bad?
Any concrete evidence?

And I am not talking about what-his-face-from-prison-planet.

The topic of this thread is not meant to provide evidence supporting a Masonic conspiracy. It is meant to question the vehement defense of an ideal with regards to the implicit assumption demonstrated by Masons on this board that this ideal is the same for all Masons.

Please remain on topic.

masonwatcher: Could you u2u me more information? I find it interesting...

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
And what does this violent spree have to do with Masonry? Can you even remotely demonstrate that these events had any correlation with Freemasonry?

Again...please remain on topic.

Originally posted by TrustMeIKnow


Incidentally, do we have a 32nd Rose Croix on these boards? I'm guessing probably not.

Rose Croix is 18°. The 32° is Master (or Prince) of the Royal Secret. Most of the Masons here are at least 32° in the Scottish Rite. I am a 32° Knight Commander of the Court of Honour, and Appak is a 33°.

One Mason cannot know what another Masonon the other side of the world is doing. So, how can one provide a blanket arguement for the whole of Masonry in light of this fact?

Actually, regular Freemasonry is constantly in communion with its sisters the world over. Each Grand Lodge has foreign representatives and so forth.

My point is this: There is never going to be an organization that is immune to corruption.

No Mason would argue otherwise. We would just point out the absurdity of singling out Freemasonry, or any other fraternal organization for that matter.

Originally posted by TrustMeIKnow
Are you being intentionally leaving information out...or are you unaware of the following?

I am providing my answer on what I personally know. The quote you supplied from Trintyman is regarding Freemasonry in the United Kingdom, I am a member in the United States and so can only give first hand account on questions pertaining to my specific jurisdiction.

[edit on 11-5-2008 by AugustusMasonicus]

Originally posted by TrustMeIKnow
Incidentally, do we have a 32nd Rose Croix on these boards? I'm guessing probably not.

I don't think so. Just to clarify nomenclature here in the light of MLs post above. In England the Scottish Rite is known formally as the Ancient & Accepted Rite, and informally as Rose Croix, named after the 18th degree which is the first degree formally worked in full.

The above supports my arguement, which is centered on the possibility of Masonic manipulation and influence of international events.

Without knowing how regular freemasonry works I can quite understand how you might think this. But although I have no idea what individual freemasons are doing in different parts of the world I can have great confidence that the organization as a whole is sticking to the "rules of freemasonry" which govern regularity. Deviation from these will cause the GL in question to find itself beyond the pale pretty quickly.

Perhaps an analogy might help. We can be reasonably confident the Boy Scouts are not trying to take over the world because their raison d'etre is something quite different. We can also be equally confident there are no rogue Boy Scout Packs out there somewhere in the world because there is a district and regional infrastructure which manages the organization and ensures best practice is followed. If a "Bad Pack" emerges the next level of authority would catch it, etc etc right up to the top of the organization.

Freemasonry is no different to the Boy Scouts or indeed any other organization in this respect. The "rules" are laid down from the top and a regional and/or district infrastructure ensures compliance. My province in England (a sub-structure of UGLE) chases after lodges who do not adhere to masonic regulations. Imagine how quickly the ax would fall if a lodge started doing serious stuff like talking religion and/or politics in the lodge, or discussing a "coup d'etat" against the Labour Government (tempting though it might be). It simply can't happen under regular freemasonry unless you are working on the assumption that the whole organization is corrupt. In that case there probably wouldn't be many "good" lodges and the active freemason such as myself would have come across something wrong by now.

My point is this: There is never going to be an organization that is immune to corruption. You can say that because your lodge is not apart of any conspiracy but you can't say that for all lodges. As well...your personal testimony over the internet is suspect. How do I know you are telling the truth?

Freemasonry is incredibly simple and transparent compared to a behemoth like the US Government. I'm quite sure there is plenty of corruption going on in all governments at all levels. But within freemasonry? Embezzlement on a local level could probably be hidden, of course, but that sort of thing is the actions of a corrupt freemason as opposed to a corrupt organization. No-one would deny freemasons as individuals can be corrupted.

But influencing world events? A private lodge could not do this in its masonic capacity without its regional infrastructure being alerted fairly quickly. If there are individual freemasons who are all members of Lodge X but only discuss their global machinations outside of the lodge can that truly be said to be a masonic conspiracy? Freemasonry bans such conspiratorial activity as part of its "constitution". If they are all discussing global plots outside of the lodge what would be the point in their maintaining lodge membership?

As to whether I am telling the truth? Only I know that

Originally posted by Trinityman
As a side note - where is the personal experience of the anti- mason?

I am not anti-Mason. So I am not qualified to answer that question.

Of course. It was a rhetorical question.

Originally posted by Trinityman
But due to the nature of freemasonry, plus the fact that I now happen to live on the other side of the world I am even more qualified to comment.

The other side of the world from which perspective? From Me? Or from yourself? The point of that was to illustrate that there are always people you do not know and as such you cannot defend their ideals.

If their ideals are masonic then yes I can very well defend them, because within regular freemasonry I know exactly what they are. I used to live in England and I now live in the US. Freemasonry is executed quite differently in both countries but the ideals and the values of the organization are identical.

[edit for spelling]

[edit on 5/11/08 by Trinityman]

How can one Mason know that ALL Masons are innocent? They can't.

Another question: Why do ALL the ATS Masons, who are online simultaneously en masse all day every day, come here just to claim"that ALL Masons are innocent?"

None of the Mason/agents are on ATS looking for the truth. They're only here to provide a seemingly benevolent face for Masonry and to denounce/detract/out-right lie to protect their organization from being exposed.

It's always amusing to see people who are supposedly dedicated to the truth quoting William Schnoebelen, the ex-Mormon/satanist/vampire/Mason/UFO abductee...

Originally posted by freight tomsen
Another question: Why do ALL the ATS Masons, who are online simultaneously en masse all day every day, come here just to claim"that ALL Masons are innocent?"

No one has said that. You are a liar, dude. So, you don't really have a leg to stand in regards to preaching about the "truth" either...

*sigh*

As you were.

Originally posted by Roark

*sigh*

As you were.

That sigh comes from fighting for the losing team.

That sigh comes from constantly calling me a liar, when you can clearly see that the public is really starting to discern which of us is telling the truth.

I would sigh too if I came to ATS everyday trying to desperately discredit (to no avail) informed conspiracy researchers like myself. Free humanity is RAPIDLY awakening to your Masonic manipulations now and those sighs are going to turn into chronic depression if you don't hurry up, break free from your self-imposed Masonic blood-oaths, and help expose this crooked organization.