Don't let gas prices scare you into a hybrid- Do The Math.

buy a $500 used corolla, 4 cyl. stick. save $18,000 for gas and beer; do the math.

I did my homework when I bought my economy car,being my tank gets 11 mpg downhill,I bought a Scion XB 1st generation,I put K&N filter and borla exaughst,my son used it to drive to Arizona,he averaged 39 mpg,plus very large inside,and very quick as well

As long as the car gets its power from burning hydrocarbons there will be a problem. The solution it to have a small five horsepower motor to power an alternator or generator, which recharges a battery bank. The car is powered by an electrical motor driven from the batteries. This technology has been around forever. I saw it work in the 70's on a converted OPEL GT.

Your thread sounds suspicious indeed since a similar story appeared on yahoo today. Same argument, but instead of using Ford in your example, you used Toyota. Interesting.

biz.yahoo.com...

Anyway, you sure throw a lot of irrelevant numbers around like a salesman. All I want to know is how big is the tank and driving range based on mpg. And revised fuel mileage standards are still relevant since they scale down.

Toyota Prius
Avg. price $22,000
tank capacity 11.9 gallons
driving range 547.4 miles
at $3.50 to fill up a bone dry tank, $41.65
average person would fill at 10 gallons, so $35.00

Toyota Corolla
Avg. price $13,000
tank capacity 13.2 gallons
driving range 409.2 miles
at $3.50 to fill up a bone dry tank, $46.20
average person would fill at 10 gallons, so $35.00

And judging from this I can see the Prius' 138.2 mile driving range advantage is muted by the higher cost of ownership in terms of car payment. Plus people don't drive til the tank is bone dry, so the average fill up is the same. And the extra trip to the gas station for the Corolla is less than the Prius when you take into account the car payment for the month.

Which is real curious since all cars having a driving range of 350-400 miles. Funny huh? Couple that fact with a rare US law that dictates any fuel economy car not made in the US must carry at least $4000+ in extra cost or reduce fuel mileage. They get them either way.

So the playing field is petty level, and the real choice one needs to make is how big a loan do they want to carry and how big a tank do they want to fill. So in my example, I would take the cheaper payment of the Corolla, since average fill-ups are fairly the same. On the plus side, I get more power and the maintenance is cheaper because its a simple combustion engine, which would probably last longer.

Eventually the world is going to run out of gas and America will be the only nation left to have available gasoline for the middle class.
Why not save the gas? Every gallon counts towards the future.
You don't need a scientist to tell you that conserving energy is beneficial.

You know we have been hearing about fuel cells for the last 20 years now and now we are seeing HUGE breakthroughs in electric car technology. Honestly folks, screw the hybrid, the technology is there we just have to start demanding it.

If you old car is less than 5 years old you are already using less emmisions and saving more gas than say a ten year old car. Bottom line is if you drive an SUV or 4x4 and it only drives on pavement and does not have a trailer hitch, you are an @#$#^@*.

Solution: Drive the speed limit, walk whenever possible, buy gas only from small independant companies, dont drive an SUV or 4x4 truck unless you NEED one, service your vehicle regularly, and tell your local car dealer that you will not buy a new vehicle unless you are able to purchase a fuel cell or an electric, bottom line.

Also consider that it is cheaper to maintain an older vehicle year after year for up to 7 - 8 years than to buy a new one every 3 or 4 years.

Hey OP you throw a lot of numbers out there that I can't be sure of, but I'll take your word for it since I do believe you when you claim to be an ex car salesmen. I wonder though, why you claim that you won't save in the long run for going hybrid. Cars usually last for long after they're paid off, but you make it sound like by the time you 'own' the car then POOF its gone and its time to buy a new one. I drive a 1997 Ford Explorer. University is about ten miles from where I live, work is less than a mile and I still am feeling the squeeze from gas prices. All other things equal, I can't see how I wouldn't be better off with a hybrid.

reply to post by Threadfall


Hi Threadfall

You're right that it is possible to save with hybrids in the long run, but my point is that most people won't. If you look through the figures that I set out, you're paying more for the hybrid for the first 5 years until it is paid off. Then you start saving money on the fuel and somewhere between the 8th and 12th year of owning the vehicle, your fuel savings finally equal what you paid extra to get the hybrid (depending on exactly what you pay for it and what fuel costs are which are impossible to gauge precisely).

If you are willing to keep the car that long, and use it as your primary vehicle for the entire time, then it would begin to pay off and you could finally begin saving somewhere around $60 - $90 per month in gas.

Your average person will not keep a car that long, though. Speaking from experience, most people that come to a dealership for a new car are trading in a car that still hasn't been paid off. You said that you have a 97 Explorer right? Did you buy that car new and use it as your main source of transportation since then? If so, you are certainly in the minority, and maybe you would do well to get a hybrid with your ownership habits.

If someone is concerned about their economic situation here and now because they are struggling to pay the bills, my advice is to not buy the hybrid, but rather a small, economical non-hybrid, and they will be able to save more. Plus, if we stop buying the hybrids, the auto manufacturers might actually produce truly clean vehicles which is what most people concerned with the environment or our oil dependence really want.

reply to post by CAPT PROTON


I checked out the link to the Yahoo article, and I suppose it does have a ring of similarity, but I honestly hadn't seen it before. The point is a little different, too. They seem to be saying you probably shouldn't trade in your old SUV at all, whereas I'm saying that if you are thinking of getting a new car, the hybrid simply isn't as good a deal as a small economical non-hybrid. At least not for a minimum of 8 years or so. But I am in agreement in a broad sense that you should consider many aspects besides just gas mileage to see if the new vehicle you are considering is really the best for your budget.

today's hybrid cars are crutches anyway, they have an IC engine AND an electric one, complete with complicated transmission, carrying the weight of both engines and the gearbox around... ie. even more polished heavy metal than your usual car.

on top of that, batteries are toxic waste, but that issue could be overcome by stringent recycling.

if they used electric transmission and a well matched, efficient (in that role) combustion engine in conjunction with a moderately sized battery or condenser package, tangible reductions in weight and therefore, fuel consumption could easily be realised and at a lower cost. note: if anyone jumps on me for insisting on a combustion engine, i advise you to search ATS for a thread called 'Why the Hydrogen Economy does not Matter'. afaics, the only alternative is currently pure electric.


the industry wants to sell the bleeding edge, while it's still new and the shiny gloss is blinding buyers. it's about marketing, mostly and it ticks me off that GW is so successful in that role.


of course, since you probably can't build your own car from scratch, you're out of luck, kinda, and have to take what's there and a hybrid car might just be the best available solution for you, depending on your requirements, ie. how much you drive and how well you conserve the car and how long you keep it, etc, but:

keep in mind that one hurricane, tornado, hailstorm or the odd sleepy truck driver is perfectly capable of nulling your entire planning, therefore, saving reliably from the start is very much preferrable to paying more now and saving in a few years.

PS: if you can, test drive any car to see how much milage it really offers, manipulating mpg ratings is just too tempting, isn't it?

Has there been any discussion or thought put into the batteries themselves (in these hybrid cars) and more specifically, how to dispose of them when/if they need replaces or disposed of.

Basically, what impact do these batteries have on our environment once they are of no more use to us? Is this in the same league like the whole bio-fuel scam? Create cleaner fuels using dirty processing methods (coal-fired plants) and sell it as "environmentally friendly"?

Good topic though and thanks for bringing it up OP.

This thread is about the best way to save money on a car and showing that it is not by buying a hybrid. I realized that my examples showed how to save more money, but not how to save the most money. I'll add some more suggestions now which I hope will help those who are thinking of trading-in.

Well, naturally, the number one way to save money when buying a car is to pay cash for it rather than financing. Not only do you not have the finance charges, but you can carry the minimal insurance rather than the full coverage that banks will require. The insurance difference alone can be well more than a hundred dollars per month. I can remember several occasions when one of my deals fell apart because someone who was driving an older, paid-off beater had decided that now they could afford something newer, but they balked when they realized how much more they were going to pay in insurance.

Most people have a car payment, however, and especially those needing a different car to save money probably don't have much saved up to be able to pay cash. So is it better to buy used and pay less but possibly pay more in repairs, or buy new and have a warranty?

I would say this depends on the type of car you plan to buy and the way that different makes hold value. You are probably aware that not all cars lose value at the same rate, and that the rate of depreciation is much greater in the first few years than later on.

Some cars that hold value very well are Toyota, Honda, (and their luxury lines Lexus and Acura), Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, and Volkswagen. If you are considering one of these, I recommend buying new. Buying a car a few years older when not save you that much on one of these vehicles and you will already have significant wear and less warranty.

Value retention is much more about the perceived quality of a vehicle than its true quality. There are vehicles manufacturers that have similar complaint records to Toyota and Honda and such, but people have a worse perception of them so they lose value more quickly. I highly recommend buying one of these vehicles that is 1 - 3 years old. That way, the vehicle does not have much wear, but the previous owner has already taken the worst of the depreciation. So you get a newer, reliable car at a bargain price and probably still under warranty.

Some vehicles that fall in this category are Chevrolet, Dodge, Chrysler, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, and Pontiac. Out of these

by brother in law works at a toyota dealership as a mechanic and he said that the batteries for the prius cost somewhere around $17,000 just for the batteries. however that was about 2 years ago, also i know that the batteries pollute worse than the fumes and many scientists have said that trees have grown more rapidly since the industrial revolution because they like co2.

ok, i drive an 02 Honda Civic EX that has a 13.2 gallon fuel tank. If i had to fill it all up while running on fumes, I'd spend 55.57 @ $4.21 a gallon. My friend with her 11.9 gallon capacity '08 Prius would spend 50.01 filling it up. she drives around the same, give or take a few miles. She fills her car once ever week, I fill mine up twice a week. I think I get the short end of the stick.
I'm thinking of buying a Prius because of that. Besides, a new Honda Civic Ex would cost me about the same as a Prius.
It's just not smart not having a fuel efficient car here in southern California, specially since gas prices have gone up 40 cents in less than a month and haven't gone down at all.

I used to drive a Pontiac Grand Prix which was averaging 22 mpg, I recently bought a Prius which is getting me 47 mpg right now. I drive 20000 miles a year.

So here is the calculation
Annual Cost
Pontiac
Gas 3800$
Depreciation 25% annual 6000$
Insurance $1000
9800$

Prius
Gas 1800$
25000$ Dep 15% Annual 3750$
5550$

Corolla 32mpg
Gas 2625$
15000$ Dep 20% Annual 3000$
5625$

Initial cost of Prius might be high but it holds its second hand value better than any car available

I guess everybody is missing that fact

everybody's fighting!

lol!

i had an idea while driving, today.

what if?

they developed a chip with broadcast/receive capability that allowed people to safely 'draught' (follow in the slipstream of a lead vehicle, thereby reducing wind friction)? make it so people can voluntarily join 'convoys' of cars all going exactly the same speed. sync the brakes up, so that if the leader hits the brakes, ALL the cars hit the brakes(because draughting works better the closer you are to the vehicle breaking the wind). leaders would receive some kind of financial reward.
perhaps drivers using this fictional system would hook up to a satellite which controls traffic flow.

or, this (this one's golden, imho):
everyone know that a heavier car gets poorer mileage. so, use compartments filled with helium to lighten them.

or, this:
everyone knows that a monorail is oppositely polarized magnets which cause the train to float. so, put magnetic strips on highways, and oppositely charged magnetic pads on car undercarriages.

a simple one:
dynamic speed limits. that is, allow cars to go faster downhill, and slower uphill. this saves a surprising amount of fuel.


feel free to patent any of those ideas. i ain't got time.
(however, if you get rich off one, give me some points(a royalty percentage), damn you!)






edited to change "ship" into "chip".

[edit on 28-7-2008 by billybob]

This might possibly be interpreted as off-topic in a way,

....but who in their right mind would make a $1000 down payment? If you can't pay for at least half of a car when you get it, you shouldn't consider buying one at all!

I have a '05 Honda Civic Hybrid. One one of the available tripometers I have available ave milage for the 48000 miles I have driven it. Turns out about 40.3 mpg. That is 1191 gallons. During ownership I lived in Cincinnati/Chicago/Indiana. Over this time the ave price of gas would probably be around $3.50/gal.. So I spent $4168 on gas. I traded a F150 extended cab/bed truck..Which go about 15.5 mpg. That means I needed 3096 gallons or $10068 for gas. That is about $6000 difference. Payments were about the same although I would have been finished with Ford a few monthes ago..I only have a year to go payment wise. The battery thing..I bought the insurence that was available. Maybe I am actually in essence buying a new battery that way haven't really reviewed it or been concerned with it. One article I read seemed to indicated they are expecting longer life from the batteries.. I have been told the resale is very high for the Civic Hybrid. I still miss my truck..

i have an HHR, and i've gotten 43 MPG on the highway through driving style (ie. follow a big heavy truck[not too close!], slow down up hill and coast down, 60 mph tops, 50 mph lowside).

even driving at eighty miles and hour with a load, it gets 28 - 30 MPG(2.4 litre manual).

tons of cargo space, 170+ horsepower, accelerates like a 1985 porsche...

gasoline is not dead, yet.


it is not the supply in the ground that is the major problem with "peak oil", it is the demand VS. refining facility output(supply).

and don't forget, OIL DOES NOT COME FROM DINOSAURS!!!! it is a self renewing resource!!

where DOES oil come from?