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When we die do we go straight to heaven or do we wait?

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posted on May, 11 2008 @ 04:53 PM
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reply to post by jimbo999
 


I beleive the soul is eternal, of course we shed our physical body upon death. We may even sometimes come back to life(People call that a near death experience) if someone resuscitates you.

[edit on 11-5-2008 by darcon]




posted on May, 11 2008 @ 07:14 PM
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reply to post by darcon
 


Man it sure seems like your having a battle withe these guys but apparently religion is the way to go.

Gee if we were all spiritual in this thread, while following the ways of the light than would be all arguing anyway, don't think so.

Religion segregates and by the fact that OP believes.

With the 'I respect different views but Christianity is the true way' I don't care which way the OP puts it thats a contradiction, that is not respect. The OP didnt even get the previous point I made with a muslim.



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 07:22 PM
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reply to post by Drakiir
 


Well, bigwhammy is sure determined to insult me, but i respect pause4thought for not doing the same, and at least not bashing us for our views.

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, even if it is contradicting at times.

I think everyone should be polite when providing people with their beliefs and opinions. I know sometimes it can get heated, but their is a fine line between debating and fighting.



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 07:34 PM
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reply to post by pause4thought
 


I think I follow your line of thought. However I find it very unconvincing.

So I guess your line of thought is the only convincing one here, because it seems anyone who deviates from your thought is abhorrent, oh thats right you still respect them, cant be done but anyway.......

I agree, if you were to do that it would be deception insomuch as you don't believe Christianity is the true way.


You didnt get my point. It is deception to 'respect' a muslim in other words be freinds with him or her, go out places and have good conversations under the guise of 'respect' and than go home and have your view of Christianity is the only way.

Thats my point and if you were honest to the Muslim you would tell him your views, not hide them. Sorry muslim friend 'I respect you but my religion is better, still friends' you call that respect because thats what you are avoiding. How long would you be friends with the Muslim if you told him that, but would you?

I sure don't think thats respect and thats why religion will always fall apart and segregate becuase everyone can hide under the 'respect' excuse only so they dont have to deal with reality or conflict. They are too scared to tell the truth because they will cause upset but the days of living in a happy fairy land will never come along.

One way, One religion, not multiple. Untill this happens the world will continue to devide just as it has been doing and we can thank these segregating veiws as being part of the problem. Or be spiritual which I and Darcon and Paul are and all these problems disappear and if you think there are none, than tell all races that Christianity is the only way, I dont think they would appreciate it.

In simple don't give me the 'I respect you' when you think my beliefs aren't the 'true path', the whole 'respect' thing is scapegoat for dealing with the problem. The problem being that the world has gone so crazy that we accept or respect anything to avoid conflict, even if it means conflict to get to the truth.

We have become a world that excepts absolutely anything and as 'wonderful' as that may sound its only promoting chaos as no one seems to want to draw the line.

NOTE The second paragraph in bold is my part of my response as there are delays in ATS to edit it properly

It really comes down to what is separating everyone and the fact remains is that while you have multiple religions you cant have people who unite, it wont work.

Dont get me wrong I respect different opinions Im all for that but when someone tells me any way besides Christian is the wrong path, than Im afraid thats anything but accepting.


[edit on 11-5-2008 by Drakiir]

[edit on 11-5-2008 by Drakiir]



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 09:34 PM
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I don't know if this has been touched on, but the verse telling the thief on the cross saying "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43) is a little misleading in the English translation. In the original greek there was no punctuation (no comma before "today"), and the order of the words has been slightly changed in teh English. This is the order of the words translated literally from the greek...

Verily to you am I saying today with Me shall you be in paradise

Christ must be saying: "To you I am saying today, with me shall you be in paradise", as in something he was telling him that day, a promise that he would be resurrected from the dead, and this is for many reasons....

1: Christ went to the grave for three days and three nights, he himself didn't got to paradise!

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

2: Since Christ is raised from the dead first, and he wasn't rasied from the dead for another three days and three nights, then for the thief to go to paradise that day, he would have to be resurrected before Christ, which contradicts scripture....

1CORINTHIANS 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

3: As the obove passage also points out, and which also touches on the question asked by the OP, the first resurrection where the faithful are risen from the dead does not take place until the second coming of Christ, so nobody yet is in heaven or hell. Hell is another story altogether, the majority of the words translated as hell in English actually mean grave, except for the word Gehenna, which is in referenece the lake of fire at the great judgement. Another word, tartarus, is a place of restraint and talking about fallen angels, not men.

4: Also we have to take note of the words of Jesus, more than three days after he told this to the thief on the cross....

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

The thief on the cross didn't go that day with Jesus to paradise, for the simple reason that Jesus himself didn't go, since he was still in the grave. As others here have pointed out, there are numerous verses talking of the dead knowing nothing, returning to dust etc. Afterall, if the dead go straight to heaven at the moment of their deaths, then what is the point of the future resurrection from the dead at the return of Christ?

Jesus even points out that we are rewarded for our good deeds at the future resurrection, not at the point of our death, so how can we receive a reward before this point?

LUKE 14:13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Also, if anyone body should have gone to heaven, King david would have been one of them, since God calls him "a man after my own heart", but notice that even after the death of Christ, Peter says that David is still in the grave, and has not risen to heaven....

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

And by the way, it is my belief that the paradise Jesus was talking about, it his future kingdom, here on earth.



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 09:53 PM
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Originally posted by doctorex
I don't know if this has been touched on, but the verse telling the thief on the cross saying "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43) is a little misleading in the English translation. In the original greek there was no punctuation (no comma before "today"), and the order of the words has been slightly changed in teh English. This is the order of the words translated literally from the greek...

Verily to you am I saying today with Me shall you be in paradise

Christ must be saying: "To you I am saying today, with me shall you be in paradise", as in something he was telling him that day, a promise that he would be resurrected from the dead, and this is for many reasons....


This changes alot of things. If it were written this way in the first place this question would never have been asked, by myself now or anyone ever. Thank you for this info.

It does however lead me to pose other questions.
1. What does happen to us at death? and where do we go?
2. Is Jesus in fact in heaven now? did he get special dispensation or is he also waiting 'somewhere' until his return?
3. (slightly off topic, but its my thread and I can do what I want
) Who are the likes of John Edwards talking to? I know he is only dealing with people who believe that type of thing but for christians who believe it this should change things a great deal.

To all other posters, thank you for your input. Yes I am a Christian and am asking from a Christian stand point, but as I am referencing the bible that would have suggested that was the direction I was taking, but I am very much interested in any views on the matter which is why I asked you guys and not a Pastor.



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 09:57 PM
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reply to post by doctorex
 


I must say, excellent job at deciphering the Biblical writings.


Thats what I dont get to this day, its a book people incoporate in to their lives and its ancient in terms of when the texts were written and yet we still need people to decipher/interpret it today.

I mean think of when the bible was first published and its now 2008 and it still needs deciphering, no wonder people spend there whole lives researching religion. If only people would interpret it in plain english like you have with none of this Ye and though and whales belly.

Top job



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 10:03 PM
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Originally posted by Drakiir
reply to post by darcon
 



With the 'I respect different views but Christianity is the true way' I don't care which way the OP puts it thats a contradiction, that is not respect. The OP didnt even get the previous point I made with a muslim.


For the record, the 'OP' (by that I mean ME) did not say anything like that. I have only made 4 posts in this thread. The OP, one in pg 1, the post preceding this one and this.


Religion segregates and by the fact that OP believes.

Until my most recent post I didn't indicate whether I believed either way.



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 10:12 PM
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reply to post by VIKINGANT
 


I think he thought pause4thought was the OP.

[edit on 11-5-2008 by darcon]



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 10:22 PM
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reply to post by VIKINGANT
 


NOTE

I will redo the edit, Im having delays with ATS and it sending double posts, its also loading really slow

[edit on 11-5-2008 by Drakiir]



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 10:55 PM
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reply to post by VIKINGANT
 


I think the previous poster in his excellent interpretation has proved that the Bible is indeed a complex book to decipher.

I for one, would without doubt want the book verified in regard to missing information or pages or certain adjustments here and there, which has been proven in history to have happened on many occasions.

We have people like Joyce Meyer still interpreting the Bible today and its 2008 I mean that practically says it all. The Bible seems so open to interpretation that the truth is almost deliberately hidden or so hard to find you need to be a scholar to figure it out.

And apparently some Christians have said that the Bible doesn't approve of female Ministers but than again lets see how happy Joyce Meyer would be to hear that, I guess they are so used to male minsters that they don't want change, but I personally don't care who preaches from what I have seen, they are still reading the same book.

If only the Bible were interpreted in modern english as has been done on this thread we may all benefit from a more concise understanding. But when it does become consice suddenly we learn that what has been interpreted is sometimes misleading and has been demonstrated.

How many Christians would question whether people are in heaven now or not, mainly because of how the Bible is interpreted to them. There is no clarity when there is so much confusion and the Bible is one of the major contributors to it, along with all the other religions.



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 11:33 PM
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Originally posted by VIKINGANT
It does however lead me to pose other questions.
1. What does happen to us at death? and where do we go?


We are not yet immortal, we are only alive because we have the breath of life in us. We are simply physical entities that break down into the elements of the earth, from which we were created. But God, being all powerful, has the ability to resurrect the mind that was in us, making us then immortal spirit.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art , and unto dust shalt thou return.

Psalms 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (breath) shall return unto God who gave it.

The word hebrew word translated as soul simply means a living thing, it is the same word used for the animals.


2. Is Jesus in fact in heaven now? did he get special dispensation or is he also waiting 'somewhere' until his return?


Yes, since he has already be resurrected, he has risen to the right hand of God.

Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such a high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.


3. Who are the likes of John Edwards talking to?


The Bible warns us about talking with spirits, because they can be deceitful. Angels themselves are spirit, and one third of them rebelled, which are what we would now call demons, evil spirits. The demonic world is more influential, cunning, and deceitful than most care to believe.



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 11:39 PM
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reply to post by Drakiir
 



I for one, would without doubt want the book verified in regard to missing information or pages or certain adjustments here and there, which has been proven in history to have happened on many occasions.


I think if we could all see this everyone’s lives would change. Unfortunately even the most thorough of scholars can only decipher what they are allowed to see. There are higher powers (the Vatican) that hold original documents that will never see the light of day. They more than likely have already been translated, but the finding will never be publicized for obvious reasons. I know it is an entirely different topic but also very relevant for any discussion relating to the bible.



posted on May, 12 2008 @ 12:09 AM
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reply to post by VIKINGANT
 


Than Im glad we have found a common ground


I too am in Australia so we both know too well about the Welfare Schemes they have out here like voluntary work. What I have seen people who represent churches do in the name of money is beyond belief. One instance where a Minister was recruiting disabled people into the Army and to top it off he told the presenter how to increase the attraction of joining the army. I felt physically sick that day and I just wanted to leave the place, he was a traitor to honesty as far as I was concerned.

The phrases and wording the presenter used were bordering on a fantasy land novel and these people with disabilities believed every word, one saying 'so we just go out a shoot people, I can do that'

The spirit of people is what I love who they are and how they are, what makes them, them. In contrast I have seen the church come under so much corruption and deceit that I for one wont take up any offer to attend any service. That is the my fuel which makes me a spiritual person. So many churches preaching there way is the only way, anyone who so much as thinks the wrong way is controlled by demons when in fact its open mindedness. I personally find it offensive to be called a sheep of God as the bible calls me, Id rather be a wolf because they are independent and don't mindlessly follow what the other does.

Its crazy the amount of things the churches are covering up especially money wise but then again they wouldn't get a constant income and fancy cars if they convinced everybody to stay home. After all you don't need to go to church to be a Christian and it also saves you being made to feel guilty to hand over money so they can build a new fancy church.

I will note that not all churches are like this and other religions do this as well but what annoys me is I barely see any or hear of 'good and honest' churches.



posted on May, 12 2008 @ 12:13 AM
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Actually the scriptures stand up to more scrutiny than any other writtings from history.....

www.carm.org...

If you want to question the accuracy of scripture, then you have to question the writtings from everybody. If anybody has any eveidence that the scriptures have been tampered with I'd like to see it. The only verse I know of to be was that added to back up the catholics belief of the trinity...

Comma Johanneum - en.wikipedia.org...

1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

[edit on 12/5/08 by doctorex]



posted on May, 12 2008 @ 12:23 AM
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reply to post by doctorex
 


Thank for the link

That will come in handy for future reference.

I have heard that there is more first hand written evidence of the life of Jesus than there is of Napoleon, meaning if you believe Napoleon lived and did what has been suggested in the history books you must then believe in Jesus. (or at least his existence 2000 years ago) How accurate this is I do not know.



posted on May, 12 2008 @ 12:31 AM
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Look up Robert monroe. He coined the word Out of Body experience. Monroe also developed The Monroe Institute, which the CIA and army intelligence, took a great interest in. An ex-army intelligence officer by the name of Paul H. Smith wrote a book about his experiences as a remote viewer, and the involvement of the Monroe Institute.These two sources have a wealth of info on the after life. Check it out.

And no! we do not go directly to heaven or hell. There are many levels in-between. The journey dose not stop at death.



posted on May, 12 2008 @ 01:48 AM
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reply to post by darcon
 



I was not dissing you, i laughed cause you said that the OP was clearly addressing this thread with a Christian perspective,

Why does that matter?? So only people with Christian answers are worthy??

I realize that that is not what you are saying, but why would you post a comment like that.


Just one of those little misunderstandings. I was responding to this:


It is very interesting to see many Christians here.


What I meant was: why do you sound surprised? Nothing more.



reply to post by Drakiir
 


I don't have time to respond fully. I just wish to point out that my Muslim friends and acquaintances know full well that I follow Christ, and we all manage to respect each other. This promotes opportunities for discussion and mutual understanding. We can agree to differ and still enjoy each other's company. Maybe we even listen to each other and reconsider our views sometimes.

Anyway, glad to see the original subject is progressing now.



posted on May, 12 2008 @ 02:30 AM
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reply to post by doctorex
 


Here is just one account of parts being removed from the King James Bible.

I will provide the link here

www.thelostbooks.com...

All Im saying is that this cant be surprising to know this after how many people put the words in the bible. It will only cause more debate and the one inescapable fact is that the the churches these days are squarely money focused.

All christians know that any version of the Bible defines their life and to not investigate at least a little into the truths and possible mistruths which most people don't, is plain arrogance. We are not sheep we have a mind and we can be inquisitive and to deny that inquisitive nature by anyone is one step further to becoming obedient, mindless zombies.

I fear this world is headed that way at a rapid rate. As I mentioned before the world we live in today accepts absolutely anything. Everything has a 'social' label on it so it doesn't sound as bad, social drinking, social smoking are the two main ones. Where does the line get drawn, what next, social sex in public places. This world is out of control and denying ones inquisitive nature to anyone is to me, an unreasonable form of censorship.

If a Bible was to guide my life than I have every right to question and confirm it, after-all a book can say anything its understanding what it means that make the difference. Unfortunately the Bible and other religious books all fall down in that area, thats why Im spiritual, I filter out the pages of words and focus on the meaning, thats what is important.

The spark in everyone that connects us all is my focus regardless of race or religion. The Bible and Religion do not allow for this, its in or out of a certain creed with a certain focus that opposes everyone other religions view and there is no unity or harmony in that. Spirituality breaks both of these in half and focuses on what makes you truly you and encourages harmony between each other and each race, not segregate them by different 'factions' of religion.

I can go up to any race regardless of religion and find a common bond or a spiritual connection that helps us get along. I can than go home and respect that person and be life long friends. We have no quibbles over which religion is right or wrong, which way is right or wrong even in-front of their face or behind their back. Its this that makes spirituality so amazing and we have no religious barriers to bar us into a religious cage.

Everyone knows that God or The Light of Love exists and it would be foolish to deny it but how we serve in the light defines who we are, divided or united, its up to each of us and I chose united by Spirituality and in my belief is the only way for people and the Light to truly connect.

Im proud to be a Solist Mystic who follows the Light as Darcon and Paul do and whether that is right or wrong can be debated all day, but its our way of life and thats what we stick to and believe in more than anything.

The problem is that all religions think their way is the true way. Christians think their way is the one true way, lets not forget the koran they think theirs is the true way as well and, lets not forget the Buddhists either. And here is the segregation kicking in to play already, no harmony, no benefit only debate.


There is in all of these only one way to unite together and that is The Golden Rule: treat others as you do yourself, but I dont see the world making a decision to have One Belief. Somehow multiple religions and multiple confusion is better.





[edit on 12-5-2008 by Drakiir]



posted on May, 12 2008 @ 06:47 AM
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reply to post by Drakiir
 


Sure there is debate over which books to include and what not to, but my point is there is no evidence of the books contained in the Bible themselves being tampered with.



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