When we die do we go straight to heaven or do we wait?, page 2

reply to post by darcon

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Hi. Nice to meet you.

I find different perspectives interesting & enjoy listening to what people with very different views have to say. It's worth bearing in mind, however, that the OP was clearly addressing the question from a Christian perspective.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Christian mysticism is what founded Christianity in the first place.

Originally posted by pause4thought
Look, I do know what you are getting at here, but it really doesn't hold water. Whereas a mystic seeks experiences that give feelings and impressions, the revelations from God which led to the writing of Scripture were rational and came with such pin-sharp clarity that sometimes entire teachings are premised on the choice of a single word from a previously-God-breathed passage. Or even part of a word (-e.g. Galatians 3:16)!

A mystic is a mystic is a mystic. They receive messages in different forms. Sometimes it is precise sentences, sometimes it is feelings, sometimes it is visions, etc.

And, let us not forget the fact that Saint Paul of Tarsus, who you are citing, was also Christian mystic

Christianity was started by Christian mystics. People who received information or data from Spirit, who then interpreted it, and who then wrote it down. Years later men decided to make it "scripture." Paul certainly had nothing to do with that decision, as they never asked him about it. His epistles were collected many years after his death.

And what's this business about pin-sharp clarity in all Christian mystic channelings? A great deal of it was and is ambiguous and frankly sophomoric in spiritual and metaphysical understanding. Which is precisely the reason why there are so many Christian churches, each with their own spin of interpretation.

Moreover, if you did any in-depth research on Saint Paul, you would know that his epistles, which later were selected to be scripture in a new testament, had all kinds of grammatical errors in them. They were not all channeled through him in "pin-sharp" clarity and some of it, although inspired by Spirit, came from Paul himself. Like his most well-known work that is used in weddings all over the world; what has come to be called The Love Chapter: 31 Corinthians 13.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
What website?

Originally posted by pause4thought
I apologise. I didn't make it clear enough that the quotes were from the NDE website you linked to.

If you find information from personal and valid experiences that contradicts that which you have been taught, then maybe you need to re-evaluate your fundamental understanding.

You know...DENY IGNORANCE & MANIPULATION.

You are being manipulated into believing things which are largely untrue. It is up to you, not me or anyone else, to enlighten yourself through EDUCATION.

Originally posted by pause4thought
Like Emperor Justinian for example, who ordered all references to the doctrine of reincarnation to be omitted from the Bible in the Sixth Century, under penalty of incarceration, torture, and death.

Most early Christians actually embraced the doctrine of reincarnation.

But because of Justinian, it pretty much ended in Christendom.

Originally posted by pause4thought
I confess I have never come across such a claim.

Because it is not taught in Christian seminary or Christian churches, as I stated.

Originally posted by pause4thought
It sounds somewhat esoteric, but that would be in keeping with your penchants.

Scholarly research, thank you. You should try it yourself.

Originally posted by pause4thought
However I am aware that false doctrines abounded in the early church, and large portions of the New Testament (even entire books, such as 1 John and Jude) warn against them.

False doctrines not determined by God or Jesus or Paul, but by early governmental leaders like Emperor Justinian.

Originally posted by pause4thought
As to reincarnation - that would clearly come under the guise of false doctrine. For a start the Old Testament would be sufficient to refute it, and that was the foundation of New Testament teaching.

Well, it's time to tear down the wall of ignorance you are embracing and learn the absolute truth and validity that most early Christians embraced the doctrine of reincarnation

I am serving The Light simply by relaying this higher awareness to you.

What you do with that awareness is your developmental problem.

Reincarnation Was A Strong Belief Among Early Christians

At the Fifth Ecumenical Church Council at Constantinople in 553 A.D., under the reign of the Emperor Justinian, several books, including those on reincarnation, were removed from the Bible and many other changes in the text were made. Resisting these distortions, the Coptic Templar Order continued to preserve the pure teachings and records of the life of Jesus through the centuries.

Coptic Fellowship Home Page

Next...

Not until the fourth century, when Christianity evolved from harried bands of secret worshippers to an institution ripe for political manipulation, did opposition develop to reincarnation in Christian theology. The new Christian-State alliance, aiming for the cultivated dependence on the masses, felt threatened by those who believed in rebirth because such Christians tended to be self-reliant, free-thinking individuals whose subservience could not be guaranteed. Neither to be induced by promises of heavenly bliss nor intimidated by threats of hellfire, they were branded as heretics (the word "heretic" means, at root, nothing more pernicious than one who is "able to choose"). Nevertheless, there was no official edict condemning the doctrine of reincarnation across the Roman empire until the year 533 AD, when the Emperor Justinian issued formal ecclesiastical curses against the "monstrous restoration" of rebirth. This censure was followed by persecution to all who refused to surrender their convictions. Resistance, however, was so tenacious - particularly by rebel Christians called the Cathars - that not until the thirteenth century did the church's campaign of terror and slaughter effectively rout reincarnational thinking in the West.

From Life Between Life by Joel L.Whitton, M.D., Ph.D. & Joe Fisher. Pages 62-63.

Want more?

There is strong evidence (e.g. Dead Sea Scrolls) that Jesus of Nazareth was a member of the Jewish Essene Sect. It is speculated often that one of the main reasons the Catholic Church has chosen not to release all the Dead Sea Scrolls for public scrutiny is because they contain unequivocal evidence within them that Jesus was a member of the Essene sect and that that sect strongly believed in reincarnation. Reincarnation was a widely held belief amongst many early 'Christians' (as well as some Jewish sects, the Essenes, the Gnostics and some Pharisees) up until AD 553, when the 5th Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church convened by the Roman Emperor Justinian at Constantinople declared the concept to be "an anathema".

It should be clearly understood that the concept of reincarnation is a serious threat to the power and authority of the Christian Church because it unequivocally renders as irrelevant the self appointed role of the Christian Clergy to "absolve sin and save sinners from descending into eternal hell".

If that isn't enough, we have a record of Emperor Justinian's edicts against the doctrine of reincarnation:

If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema.

Whoever says or thinks that human souls pre-existed, i.e., that they had previously been spirits and holy powers, but that, satiated with the vision of God, they had turned to evil, and in this way the divine love in them had died out (apyugeisas) and they had therefore become souls (yukas) and had been condemned to punishment in bodies, shall be anathema.

Medieval Sourcebook: Fifth Ecumenical Council: Constantinople II, 553

The above information is not esoteric. It is freely available online and in books for those who take their heads out of the sand of prejudice and do the homework to learn the absolute truth

You won't learn about it unless you actively seek to learn about it.

reply to post by Paul_Richard

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I too agree with Darcon and totally agree with you

I have a few reasons of my own to project to the opposition.

I also concur that blindly believing every word of the bible without questioning its authenticity and if it was subject to manipulation is a docile sheep to say the least. I mean after all the 'revisions' and recorded removals of sections I too would doubt the validity of the bible,

One of the best sources is the Dead Sea Scrolls as you have mentioned and is probably the most accurate depiction of how the bible should be.

Youve really done you homework Paul thats for sure.

I have to wonder when the dismissal of reincarnation is so strong and yet Jesus himself was reported to be reincarnated. Is the opposition trying to say that Jesus never reincarnated at all because he sure is pushing the line that the particular event is fictional.

So I guess Jesus never reincarnated at all, it was black magik or wikka huh

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by darcon

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Hi. Nice to meet you.

I find different perspectives interesting & enjoy listening to what people with very different views have to say. It's worth bearing in mind, however, that the OP was clearly addressing the question from a Christian perspective.

Indeed i think it is very important to keep an open mind.

LOL @ Christian perspective

[edit on 11-5-2008 by darcon]

reply to post by Paul_Richard

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let us not forget the fact that Saint Paul of Tarsus, who you are citing, was also Christian mystic

I'd rather forget this comment for fear of getting into an 'Oh yes he was'/'Oh no he wasn't'-type argument. Suffice it to say that Christians accept him as an apostle with the gift of prophesy. Saying he was a mystic, then calling this a 'fact', is disingenuous.

Christianity was started by Christian mystics. People who received information or data from Spirit, who then interpreted it, and who then wrote it down. Years later men decided to make it "scripture." Paul certainly had nothing to do with that decision, as they never asked him about it. His epistles were collected many years after his death.

I accept that you have spent time researching your beliefs, but the ideas you lay out here have no basis in fact.

This is what the apostle Peter said of Paul's writings:

..our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

2 Peter 3:15b&16

We therefore learn that:

1) Paul's epistles are part of Scripture, God's revelation to man

2) Certain people mess with them, and receive dire warning

3) Paul is held in highest esteem by Christ's true disciples: he is a beloved brother

It also seems to have escaped your notice that from the earliest days Paul himself urged that his letters be read not only by the recipients, but also by other churches:

And when this letter is read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans...

Colossians 4:16a

I adjure you by the Lord to have this letter read to all the brethren.

1 Thessalonians 5:27

Are you at least willing to admit that here you are wrong? If not, there is little point in debating, as the evidence from both Peter and Paul is unambiguous.

...his epistles, which later were selected to be scripture in a new testament, had all kinds of grammatical errors in them.

Christians don't regard the process of the writing of Scripture as dictation. They were produced via the medium of the characters and even dialects of the individual writers, but what they wrote was still what God intended:

But know this first of all, that no prphecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2 Peter 1:20&21

You are, of course, entitled to hold another view, but it is not Christian, and it really doesn't behove you to attempt to persuade Christians that they need non-Christians to teach them how to understand and use their own Scriptures.

If you find information from personal and valid experiences that contradicts that which you have been taught, then maybe you need to re-evaluate your fundamental understanding. You know...DENY IGNORANCE & MANIPULATION.

On the contrary, where experiences contradict each other I decide which are valid by examining the information and comparing it to what God has said. The better I acquaint myself with the Scriptures, the less I remain in ignorance. What is more it becomes more and more difficult for false teachers to manipulate my views!

You refer to "education". I gave my views on "what is falsely called knowledge" in a previous post.

I am serving The Light simply by relaying this higher awareness to you.

No, you are serving Satan by relaying to me doctrines of demons.

I still respect you as a person. For a start there is no denying you think about things seriously and deeply. But without accepting God's true revelation of Himself you have become caught up in things that actually oppose the true Light.

The true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.

Gospel of John 1:9

Unless, of course a person rejects and opposes it, which the context of this verse makes clear.

I truly wish you the blessing of the one, true God, whose Son is Jesus, the Christ.

reply to post by Drakiir

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I also concur that blindly believing every word of the bible without questioning its authenticity and if it was subject to manipulation is a docile sheep to say the least. I mean after all the 'revisions' and recorded removals of sections I too would doubt the validity of the bible.

Hi. Obviously you too are entitled to hold whatever view you wish. Nevertheless please don't assume we accept the validity and authenticity of the Bible without good reason. The revisions and removals you refer to are just hearsay and urban myth.

Such misinformation is thoroughly dealt with here, for example:

www.worldinvisible.com...

I sincerely hope that neither you nor darcon have a closed mind...

As to the Dead Sea Scrolls, they provide the most marvellous attestation to the accuracy of the Old Testament Scriptures in terms of their transmission. Previously extant Hebrew manuscripts hundreds of years younger - for example the book of Isaiah - were like carbon copies. The discovery of the DSS was actually one of the biggest blows to those who wished to decry the reliability of the Bible.

reply to post by pause4thought

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Im not Paul I know but I absolutely refute the aligation of representing Satan, maybe you should state that to the Goths, Churches of Satan, or Paganist but of all people not us.

Are you seriously stating that any view that opposes yours is of a Satanic nature because you sure are inferring it. You have the trait of a hypocrite, one who sings and dances of acceptance and yet stares an opposing view down and classes it as Satanic.

This is not only our view but our belief and if you weren't so quick to label our beliefs stemming from representing Satan than you are missing the true Evils of the world.

For a Christian you seem to forget not to hate others and treat them as you would treat yourself, but claiming Paul represents Satan and also those that share the same belief mainly myself and Darcon is proof of your hypocritical and deceptive nature.

Deception is bad but a hypocrite is worse so maybe you need to look at yourself before your judge others.

reply to post by Drakiir

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I certainly didn't say you represent Satan. I agree with you that some others do. I merely stated the standard Christian belief that all teachings that lead away from Christ have their origin in the spiritual forces that oppose him. It is very easy to serve Satan's purposes, however, in an unwitting manner.

I'm not really sure why you call me a hypocrite. I have sought to be genuinely polite, and I am sincere in that and in all I have said. As often happens, the absence of intonation in on-line chat opens the door to huge misunderstandings. If I have wronged you in any way other than to state opposing views, I will apologise.

Granted, what I said is not easy for you to swallow. But it was nevertheless intended to shock. Sometimes it is the only way to awaken people out of a fixed view-point.

Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the latter times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons...

1 Timothy 4:1a

I firmly believe that Eastern mysticism and the New Age movement, etc., have their origins in the Pit. As do Christians throughout the world.

It may, however, surprise you that I normally get along fine with people who have been influenced by such things. While making my views clear I still respect people who hold views that I believe are deceptive and which I find abhorrent.

After all, what could be more abhorrent than teaching someone something that hinders their taking the path that leads to the forgiveness of their guilt and eternal life with their Maker?

From a Christian perspective...

reply to post by pause4thought

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It may, however, surprise you that I normally get along fine with people who have been influenced by such things. While making my views clear I still respect people who hold views that I believe are deceptive and which I find abhorrent.

This is precisely why I call you a hypocrite.

The whole 'I respect your views but find them abhorrent' is a contradiction in itself. You cant respect someone when you think their views are abhorrent. Thats like me respecting a muslim and going home and preaching Christianity is the true way, thats deception.

The whole 'respecting decision' is a soft approach or a deterrent to stop conflict to finally realize that the only way is one way. Until the world choses one religion and one only than the world will continue to segregate and fall apart. That is why I am a spiritual person so I can go up to anyone from any race and respect them, I can then go home and respect them not preach an alternate religion behind their back.

So you see you are a hypocrite and deceptive and in what way does it matter in linking Pauls view and Satan, you linked them together no matter what words you used.

reply to post by Drakiir

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You cant respect someone when you think their views are abhorrent. Thats like me respecting a muslim and going home and preaching Christianity is the true way, thats deception.

I think I follow your line of thought. However I find it very unconvincing.

I agree, if you were to do that it would be deception insomuch as you don't believe Christianity is the true way.

If I show respect to Muslims (which I do - see this thread I started a long time ago, entitled "Why Muslims should be treated with more respect": www.belowtopsecret.com... ) and continue to tell others that Christ is the true way, which I do, then I am simply holding true to my convictions. It is not actually that difficult to respect a person whatever their beliefs - at least in my experience. It comes from believing that every individual is made in the image of God, and is therefore worthy of respect in and of themselves.

You are trying to drive a wedge of disrespect between me and Paul, which any fair-minded reader can see is unfounded. If you need further evidence as to how I regard people with different beliefs you only need to look at page 1 of this thread and see how I treated someone from a Roman Catholic background.

Turn down the heat, man. I was enjoying an orderly, although admittedly frank, discussion...

Anyone like to discuss what happens after death?

reply to post by pause4thought

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P4T I must say I really respect your ability to tolerate and communicate with others. However I've run across the rather comical but dangerous false teachings from this new age crowd before. They believe they are "a-scending" into the spirit realms. *cough cough prefix 'de' * I've heard Darcon claim evil does not exist. Can't say for certain in his case, but that's usually a clue that one is sold out to it. Let's see Paul_Richard recently counseled an ATS member whose mother passed away to consult a known psychic scam artist necromancer. I put this crowd of squarely in the false prophet category.

Good choice you made here...

Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the latter times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons...
1 Timothy 4:1a

Sometimes its best just to overturn the tables of the moneychangers in the temple.

Does that seem narrow minded to you new age descenders? Good!
"The way is narrow that leads to life but the way broad that leads to destruction."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the topic at hand...

The Apostle Paul said to die is to be with Christ.

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Phil 1:21-24

reply to post by Bigwhammy

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I love how you insult me and Paul and our beliefs.

[edit on 11-5-2008 by darcon]

reply to post by darcon

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A few posts ago you wrote this:

LOL @ Christian perspective

(followed by mocking icons to rub it in)

Why can't we just discuss the issues?

reply to post by darcon

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Originally posted by Darcon
Yet another example of a misguided soul. They will pay a Karmic Debt when they leave that life. Everything we do, and say is replayed when we die, and the Karma Police are their.

No such thing as evil.
Just your perception i Suppose.

Originally you posted that you never said evil doesn't exist... you then went back and edited that out because you did say that.
Busted red handed in a lie Darcon.

reply to post by pause4thought

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I was not dissing you, i laughed cause you said that the OP was clearly addressing this thread with a Christian perspective,

Why does that matter?? So only people with Christian answers are worthy??

I realize that that is not what you are saying, but why would you post a comment like that. To me, it does not matter if his perspective was from an Atheist, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, or even a Buddhist standpoint.

It certainly does not matter if the replier is one of the above belief systems or not, or if he is not the same religion or spiritual belief as the OP.

This is ATS, a place where everyone can express there opinion.

I am all ears, i have read everyones posts, and i am sorry if i offended you in any way, as Bigwhammy has done to me. It was not my intention.

[edit on 11-5-2008 by darcon]

reply to post by Bigwhammy

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Yes, i edited my post before you posted that, cause i did realize i had said that.

I apologize.

You can call a person who has done bad things in his or hers life, evil if you want too. I like to call them misguided.

[edit on 11-5-2008 by darcon]

reply to post by VIKINGANT

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Ermm...neither buddy.

hate to break it to you - but when you die - you basically die. Like every other llife form on this planet, you slowly turn to dust. Period.

Nothing else happens.

Whoever tells you differently is either:

1. After your money.

Or

2. Full of Ka-Ka...



J.


[edit on 11-5-2008 by jimbo999]

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