When we die do we go straight to heaven or do we wait?, page 1

reply to post by VIKINGANT

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The saved since Jesus' resurrection go straight to a place referred to as heaven. Before Jesus resurrection, they went to paradise. All those in paradise were resurrected with Jesus and are now in heaven. Hope that clears it up sufficiently for you.

Originally posted by Howie47
reply to post by VIKINGANT

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The saved since Jesus' resurrection go straight to a place referred to as heaven. Before Jesus resurrection, they went to paradise. All those in paradise were resurrected with Jesus and are now in heaven.

But 1 Thess says
"And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"
Which refers to the second coming. There will be those still alive being called up meaning ( to me anyway) that no one is in heaven YET

Hope that clears it up sufficiently for you.

Not really but I do understand what you are trying to say.

Solarskye,
thanks
And I couldn't agree more, but aren't you just a bit curious?

reply to post by VIKINGANT

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When we die do we go straight to heaven at the moment of death or do wait until Christs second coming and the resurrection?

I have to give it to you - this is a well-posed question. If only more people thought through the big questions so carefully...

My first point of reference would be:

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in Me, even if he dies, will live. Everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die - ever. Do you believe this?"

Your quandry is based on the text in Thessalonians:

...we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep... Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

(etc.)
1 Thessalonians 4:15b&17a

Who does "them" refer to? I believe it is "those who are asleep" who, having entered Heaven from the moment of death, are permitted to take part in the mother of all Spectaculars.

This can be backed up by the following Scripture:

Look! The Lord comes with thousands of His holy ones...

Jude verse 14b

While on first glance we might take 'holy ones' to mean those amazing dudes whose homeland is Glory: angels (literally 'messengers') - comparison with the text in Thessalonians, etc., suggests it may well mean our Christian friends who have previously departed. ('Holy ones', sometimes translated 'saints', just means 'those who have been set apart to live for God'.)

Why don't you come over (or should I say down) to the BTS Faith board? Its a good place to explore such issues. Here is a thread that relates closely to the issue you are raising (in terms of near-death experiences):

www.belowtopsecret.com...



reply to post by dAlen

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Your hypothesis concerning explaining NDEs in terms of a hallucination also sounds like the result of some serious thought.

I think there are a number of reasons why that could not explain all such experiences. For example:

1) Many people with no thought or expectation of life after death suddenly find themselves confronted by a reality so far from their previous imaginations and beliefs that even while experiencing it they automatically assume someone has just turned out the lights.

2) Many many vivid experiences closely accord with the teaching of the Bible even where the person previously had no leanings in that direction. A three-dimensional experience involving all the senses - including a fully-awake rational facility - is different from a hallucination, which produces bizarre and usually very incoherent experiences and thought-processes.

Having said all that I personally still prefer to make the Scriptures my bedrock. Someone who, over thousands of years, was predicted to come and eventually to rise from the dead, who himself kept promising to rise from the dead, and then did it, only to return and keep teaching - he commands my trust like no-one else and nothing else.

When we die do we go straight to heaven or do we wait?

It all depends on the spiritual development of the individual

Stemming from it's application of The Golden Rule (found in all world religions), its selflessness, and its ability to love genuinely and deeply - which translates on the Other Side as the ability to Radiate Spiritual White Light.

Regardless of faith or philosophy, if a soul is spiritually retarded, it will not be able to ascend in vibration within The Light to even a basically spiritual place on the fourth plane (in the traditional seven plane paradigm), where the religious heavens are located.

That's the waiting period.

There are other Cities of Light on the fourth plane that are not Christian based, i.e., they don't espouse that Jesus was or is a facet of a Trinity God and/or the Son of God.

The choices we make in life matters deeply.

Life is a golden opportunity to live a spiritual life in a world of darkness.

Life is very important because how we have lived our life largely determines how far we can go into the light.

Near Death Experience Research Conclusions

The nonliving and infinite Light on the Other Side which judges ALL after death, is indifferent to persons, groups, how one views God, and religions in general.

All The Light is interested in is one's SPIRITUALITY...or lack of it.

Those who investigate this subject for many years and more than one lifetime, realize that the discarnate dimensions generally consist of a large number of "special interest groups."



Christianity being only one of many, representative of this world and of many others which contain humanoid life.

reply to post by Paul_Richard

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Hi. I think it is only fair to point out that the website you linked to is strongly biased away from the Christian faith. Fair enough my friend - you describe yourself as an ancient mystic!

However mysticism equates to an entirely different world-view to the Christian faith. The latter is a rational response to records of historical events and a belief that there is but one true God, who is the Maker of this universe (and much else besides), and who is not only well able to find a way to communicate with us - He did it in a very special way over thousands of years through a great variety of people. As you know, we believe His last specially revealed messages to mankind were given in the days that His Son was in the world, and during the immediate aftermath.

The website in question is full of statements that are the absolute converse of what God has revealed in the Bible. Here are a few brief examples:

Before the universe was created, every soul that ever existed and will exist, including Jesus, was created by God.

This is what someone who lived and travelled with Jesus said about him:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

John 1:1

What? You mean the man you walked around with was the Maker?

All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created

John 1:3

But how on earth could God become a man?

The Word became flesh and took up residence among us

John 1:14

Another attempt to discredit the teaching of the Bible:

The so-called "trinity" that Christians talk about (i.e., Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)...

Doesn't sound like unbiased comment does it? New Age, perhaps. Maybe some cult or other. It makes no difference really.

One final example:

The Biblical references to the title of "Christ" (the anointed one) is a reference to the divine consciousness within human beings. In this respect, it can be said that Jesus and Buddha became Christs because they were a manifestation of the divine nature in humanity.

I'm sorry, but when we reach this level of bunkum, the words speak for themselves. Perhaps some people have a taste for eclectic philosophy; but eclectic religion? Just a mishmash of ignorance veiled in authoritative-sounding pontifications.

Either Jesus was who He said He was: the Son of God, and the only way for people with a corrupt nature to be accepted by His Father (because He personally paid the price) - or He was not. By all means way up the evidence, from myriad fulfilled prophecies to power over the entire physical realm. But spare us the "We'll let him share some respect with Buddha".

My views and the views of billions of others are based on the Christian Scriptures, composed over the course of a vast swathe of history, with, I believe, clear evidence of knowledge of the future that is inexplicable apart from divine intervention. That's the only reason I have confidence in providing a retort.

Many of the view you espouse are also well-known, but they are, at the end of the day, man's ideas about God and the universe. Nothing more, however well thought-out. Without God Himself deciding to provide us with light - which I believe is what He has done via the Bible, - there is no justifiable basis for confidence in ideas of "enlightenment".

reply to post by FlyersFan

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No, my dear friend, purgatory is nowhere mentioned in the Bible. It is only encountered in the books written between the Old and New Testaments, and the very idea contravenes much Biblical teaching.

reply to post by FlyersFan

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Can we perhaps agree to disagree, but agree on this: whether our ultimate destiny is Heaven or Hell is what really matters?

(I'll only ad that your quote from Maccabees is extra-testamental.)

reply to post by FlyersFan

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The 'Church Fathers' regarded it, along with the other inter-testamental books, as profitable for reading, but not inspired by God, and therefore not a final authority. About two millenia ago.

Regarding the direction of your comments: fair enough. You are well within your rights to lay before us Roman Catholic teaching.

pause4thought,

Originally posted by pause4thought
Hi. I think it is only fair to point out that the website you linked to is strongly biased away from the Christian faith. Fair enough my friend - you describe yourself as an ancient mystic!

Yes, I am an ancient mystic.

Originally posted by pause4thought
However mysticism equates to an entirely different world-view to the Christian faith.

Wait a minute.

You never heard of a Christian mystic?

They are plentiful in what is left of Christendom.

By definition, all the mystical path entails is someone who seeks divine revelation directly without going through a member of the clergy - be it a nun, minister, priest, rabbi, imam, monk, etc.

Christian mystics abound in history.

Ever hear of St. Theresa of Avila?

Francis of Assisi?

St. Paul of Tarsus?

Ignatious of Antioch?

St. Polycarp?

St. Thomas Aquinas?

St. Anthony?

Origen?

For a more complete list of well-known Christian mystics in history (as there are many more unknown and/or forgotten ones), go here.

Christian mysticism is what founded Christianity in the first place.

Originally posted by pause4thought
The latter is a rational response to records of historical events and a belief that there is but one true God, who is the Maker of this universe (and much else besides), and who is not only well able to find a way to communicate with us - He did it in a very special way over thousands of years through a great variety of people. As you know, we believe His last specially revealed messages to mankind were given in the days that His Son was in the world, and during the immediate aftermath.

I agree with the Muslims that the prophet Issa/Jesus was a prophet. Well, actually an angel prophet. But I disagree with the Muslims that Muhammad was anything more than just a prophet also.

Originally posted by pause4thought
The website in question is full of statements that are the absolute converse of what God has revealed in the Bible.

What website?

I had a link to a site which talked about near death experiences and another one which addressed The Golden Rule in all world religions. The link at the bottom by my signature has none of the quotes you listed.

So what are you talking about?

My views are the ones I state in here and make references to in an occasional link. Please don't misquote or misrepresent what I espouse.

But since you brought up the issue of the Bible, let's go ahead and address it.

The Bible is a collection of Christian mystic writings that were slashed and hacked - with various books being omitted completely - throughout history by people who were not even pious, much less spiritual.

Like Emperor Justinian for example, who ordered all references to the doctrine of reincarnation to be omitted from the Bible in the Sixth Century, under penalty of incarceration, torture, and death.

Most early Christians actually embraced the doctrine of reincarnation.

But because of Justinian, it pretty much ended in Christendom. That is why fundamentalist Christians today don't teach reincarnation. Not because "God" in the written word said that reincarnation doesn't exist, but because a long dead emperor decided to twist biblical scripture for his own selfish ends

That is an excellent example of the corruption of biblical scripture.

Then there is the fundamental problem that the Bible was largely incomplete in metaphysical and spiritual understanding at the onset. It is just a conjecture of writings of early Christian mystics, edited and changed around by high level politicians and emperors as they pleased over the years.

Thus, an accurate depiction of biblical history will not be found in Sunday school or in Christian seminary classes. They don't teach that which would shake the very foundation of understanding that keeps their churches from falling apart and ending completely.

After all, if everyone knew that Emperor Justinian and not God or Jesus omitted all the references of reincarnation from the Bible (well, most of them, there are still a few hints here and there), then that would completely change the perspective on Christianity, wouldn't it?

And we certainly can't have that

Better for the ignorant masses to remain in the dark in order for current church leaders to continue to control them.

In case you don't realize it, I am being sarcastic here.

Care to quote more distorted and incomplete scripture at me?

The progressive personality does not limit itself to only one metaphysical book or philosophy, but investigates many teachings. To analyze them and compare them within the context of personal mystical experience, in order to form a more accurate and educated perspective on heaven, the astral planes, cosmic justice, spiritual growth, etc.

[edit on 10-5-2008 by Paul_Richard]

reply to post by Paul_Richard

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You're right I've never heard of any of those characters. Paul who?

Christian mysticism is what founded Christianity in the first place.

Look, I do know what you are getting at here, but it really doesn't hold water. Whereas a mystic seeks experiences that give feelings and impressions, the revelations from God which led to the writing of Scripture were rational and came with such pin-sharp clarity that sometimes entire teachings are premised on the choice of a single word from a previously-God-breathed passage. Or even part of a word (-e.g. Galatians 3:16)!

I agree with the Muslims that the prophet Issa/Jesus was a prophet. Well, actually an angel prophet.

The man who was Jesus' closest companion, John, wrote this:

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also

1John 2:23

If you wish, I could provide Jesus' own words to the same effect. But my point here is this - to know God reliably requires faith in what those He gave true, clear revelation to, wrote. That is why mysticism is full of pitfalls. It has no anchor - the devotee is simply blown here and there by every wind of doctrine.

Originally posted by pause4thought
The website in question is full of statements that are the absolute converse of what God has revealed in the Bible.


What website?

I apologise. I didn't make it clear enough that the quotes were from the NDE website you linked to.

Like Emperor Justinian for example, who ordered all references to the doctrine of reincarnation to be omitted from the Bible in the Sixth Century, under penalty of incarceration, torture, and death.

Most early Christians actually embraced the doctrine of reincarnation.

But because of Justinian, it pretty much ended in Christendom.

I confess I have never come across such a claim. It sounds somewhat esoteric, but that would be in keeping with your penchants. However I am aware that false doctrines abounded in the early church, and large portions of the New Testament (even entire books, such as 1 John and Jude) warn against them.

As to reincarnation - that would clearly come under the guise of false doctrine. For a start the Old Testament would be sufficient to refute it, and that was the foundation of New Testament teaching.

People were known to have added things to Scripture - gnostics in particular - and their writings were rightly spurned. They claimed to have gained secret knowledge that was not available to those who simply heard the apostles teaching and believed it. The entire book of 1 John was written to warn Christians against their teachings.

The apostles, personally selected as conduits of the Good News by Christ himself, wrote everything we need to determine what is and what isn't the Christian faith:

We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

1 John 4:6

Finally, a certain apostle wrote these words to a pastor responsible for leading a flock, a local gathering of believers, which is what Christ and the apostles taught was how Christians grow in grace and knowledge of God:

O Timothy, guard what ha been entrusted you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge", which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith.

1 Timothy 6:20&21

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