Is this What You Believe In? (Quotes From The Bible)

reply to post by zerop

I shouldn't respond to this, I really shouldn't...

What you are crying against is free speech and freedom of religion. I quote from your post:

...what does exist are ignorant barbaric teachings of an ancient book that many right-wing fundamentalists insist on forcing on america.

Please back that argument up with one, just one, enforced law in any of the fifty states that declares Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) to be practiced. Or give me one law, just one, that declares that you are required to pray, or to go to church, or to read the Bible. You can't, because they do not exist; they would be unconstitutional.

Garbage like Creationism, Ten Commandments everywhere, Prayer in the schools, etc.

So, it would satisfy you if everyone was required by law to believe in evolution, if no one was allowed to openly show any portion of the Bible outside their homes (wait, unless they have visitors, then it would have to be forbidden in their homes as well), and no one could silently think a prayer in public? That's Nazi Germany, my friend.

If Christians just kept to themselves, we wouldn't mind one bit. But they insist on trying to force their silly and dangerous belief system on everyone else...

So Christians have no reason to have the right to free speech?

...and will use any means (legal and political) to do it.

Again, show me one law.

Why don't they leave us alone? I've never had an atheist knock on my door. Maybe we should start doing that, though. Religious fundamentalism of any kind is the biggest threat to free civilization there is. If you want to live in a theocracy, move to Iran.

Oh, so now you want anyone who believes in Christianity sequestered so you never have to speak to them? Or perhaps deported to a Muslim country where people are regularly killed for being Christians?

You appear to have a lot of concern for your 'rights' in this country, as is proper. Yet you espouse the cancellation of others' rights in order to 'protect' your own. That is not proper, but wrong on any thinking level.

The problem with freedom is that it applies to everyone. And should an atheist come knocking on my door to talk, I would invite them in for a discussion. Where's the harm in having someone say a silent prayer in school? Where is the danger to society for someone to talk to you about a belief system?

The harm and the danger is that you might hear something that would make you question yourself, and you would no longer be a nice little tin soldier for the powers that enslave or try to enslave all peoples.

TheRedneck
(and now my rant is done, and I am closing this thread once and for all - I hope)


[edit on 10-5-2008 by TheRedneck]

Originally posted by darkelf
I have no problem with these scriptures as long as they are taken in context with the surrounding scriptures, compared to other scripture, and understood according to the situation in that particular time frame.

Pulling verses out of the Bible without context acheives nothing but confusion.

Well this I suppose is a response to both you and Howie.
I am quite familiar with the 'taking it out of context' spiel. (My milieu was Christianity inside and out, gave my life to Jesus at around the age of 6.)

However, I firmly believe that the phrase, "you have to take it in context" or "its not in context", etc. - well, I believe this is "out of context".

The phrase is overused, and needs to be retired.
It no longer means what it is supposed to mean. - It would seem that its used as a tool to:

a- avoid answering questions (to questions we dont ask)
b - putting people 'in place' with a buzz words so we can 'move along' with our faith unquestioned.

It all stems from fear. The majority of Christians (or any religion) live in fear, that deep inside, something isnt right and they may be proved wrong.

I say its called ego. Or identifying with mental constructs, thoughts, etc.
Calling oneself a Christian, is a form of idolatry basically.
And if you cant see to the point that the words are pointing, without getting stuck in them...I would suggest its time to throw away "Christian speak" 101.

The O.P. brings up points, that are well in context by themselves.
What either of you could have done is given him context. I do know that for many Christians the O.T. is kind of weighty to them, and they have a quick little speech that can easily (though not logically) get them out of a 'bind' so they can move along and pretend that the O.T. doesnt exist. ("Oh, thats Old covenant")

Im not mocking anyone - trust me, I was up to this past my head...I lived it, breathed it, and now understand it in a way that is living to me. (and not just in words.)

Again, this experience is not unique to me - Eckhart Tolle (which many Christians may label as new age) had a similar experience. (former Catholic who gave up Catholicism, and one day picked up the Bible and it made sense. - I highly recommend his audio book, particularly New Earth - as its not more dogma, doctrine, its not religion...its practicality and will help anyone regardless of their religion.)

I only put that plug in there, as he is far more eloquent in the way he puts things and more easily understood - except for those who go in expecting to hear what it is they want to hear. (but that goes with anything.)

As I write this, I know that what I say will not necessarily go over well with a lot of Christians, Im not that eloquent in words and can be easily misunderstood. But for those who are open you will get the point of what it is Im saying.

So to wrap it up, yes - on one level the words are in context as they are.
But on another level, what is being said can be seen on a higher level altogether.
I will be honest, I dont have an answer for the O.P.s O.T. questions... (well non that I can write briefly down.)

Peace

dAlen

[edit on 10-5-2008 by dAlen]

OK, I'm not Christian; I'm Wiccan. However, I was raised Southern Baptist so I had to weigh in on this discussion. The reason that I am Wiccan is because Christianity never worked for me, in large part due to the kinds of verses that you have quoted here. I will say that much of what you have here is Old Testament. However, if God never changes, then the New Testament should not contradict the Old Testament at all. Finding contradictions in the Bible is relatively easy. But the other problem is that you will find various contradictions between the Bible and what you hear from the pulpits in America.

But this is true in most religions. That is why I reject anyone who tries to pressure me into believing in their religion, and it is why I am a solitary practitioner.

Originally posted by scarlett1125
However, if God never changes, then the New Testament should not contradict the Old Testament at all. Finding contradictions in the Bible is relatively easy. But the other problem is that you will find various contradictions between the Bible and what you hear from the pulpits in America.

But this is true in most religions. That is why I reject anyone who tries to pressure me into believing in their religion, and it is why I am a solitary practitioner.

1 - you will get the normal prepared spiel for why the O.T. and N.T. are not contradictions but a fulfillment - but Jews wont agree, but then Christians have an answer as to why this is too. - ego always defends its positions regardless...Im not calling Jesus egoic, just most of his followers - hey I was ego of egos...

2 - There are no contradictions in 'christian' land.
If there were they would not have their faith - well they would and it would be real, but it would be the downfall of the egoic made version of Christianity.
- not expecting everyone to follow what I just said, and no Im not being condescending by saying that.

2a - In Judaism, at least they admit that the Bible is full of contradictions, but they have reasons for it and go into explaining why. In Christianity, you can quite have your mind made up and fully believe there are no contradictions even when faced with one. They arent trying to be stubborn...its mind programming, or a one track thought. - this is not a put down, but an observation from the inside...

3 - Yes, even the pulpits, or what we see as Christianity today is truly not found anywhere in the Bible - if people would read the Bible for themselves they would find out so much. - The good book says that you do not need man to teach, that you have the spirit within...but people are so eager to give their will to others so that they can 'be led by the hand' to places that they 'will not want to go'.

Lack of responsibility - they are afraid... fear not...and they are full of fear.

You can not change anyone, for the most part, unless an egoic story is not working...but those who do change and convert, are as Jesus put it, "Twice the son of hell" (I did a blog on that here at ATS awhile back when they had blogging, but its at my wordpress blog linked below as well.)

Peace

dAlen

the only true change isnt what we do to ourselves or others do to us - but its when we see the truth as it is...no need for 'stories' - or if you want a 'story' at least you recognize it for what it is...(again, I will say listen to Eckhart Tolles audio book 'a New Earth' - to much to go into in a short post...and he is a lot clearer on this than I am)

[edit on 10-5-2008 by dAlen]

Hah! It is the religious right that actually trying to *change* the constitution, to give special status to their religion. Gay marriage, prayer, etc. In fact, when the constitution was written, they lobbied like hell to get "God" in it. Jefferson resisted it. You want laws? Just about every state has religiously-oriented "blue laws", from sodomy to what you can and can't do on the sabbath. Occasionally they do enforce them, if they are inclined.

Garbage like Creationism, Ten Commandments everywhere, Prayer in the schools, etc.

So, it would satisfy you if everyone was required by law to believe in evolution, if no one was allowed to openly show any portion of the Bible outside their homes (wait, unless they have visitors, then it would have to be forbidden in their homes as well), and no one could silently think a prayer in

You can believe whatever you want, but you can't teach it in a public school.
it would satisfy me if creationism (ID is the same thing) where kept out of public schools, because they are religion.

public? That's Nazi Germany, my friend.

Oh please. See 'Godwin's Law'.

If Christians just kept to themselves, we wouldn't mind one bit. But they insist on trying to force their silly and dangerous belief system on everyone else...

So Christians have no reason to have the right to free speech?

Your freedom ends where my pain begins. If "free speech" is the power to change the constitution for religious reasons, then I have the right to say and do anything to prevent that from happening.

Why don't they leave us alone? I've never had an atheist knock on my door. Maybe we should start doing that, though. Religious fundamentalism of any kind is the biggest threat to free civilization there is. If you want to live in a theocracy, move to Iran.

Oh, so now you want anyone who believes in Christianity sequestered so you never have to speak to them?

Actually, I would like that. But seeing how that's impossible, I'll settle for bashing them and speaking MY mind whenever possible. Or would you keep me sequestered?

Or perhaps deported to a Muslim country where people are regularly killed for being Christians?

Don't be ridiculous.

You appear to have a lot of concern for your 'rights' in this country, as is proper. Yet you espouse the cancellation of others' rights in order to 'protect' your own. That is not proper, but wrong on any thinking level.

Again, you're freedom ends where my pain begins. If you feel that it is "painful" to not be allowed to spew your message at me, then we're gonna have a war.

The problem with freedom is that it applies to everyone.

So should we put verses from the Koran on your favorite courthouse? Or teach the Hindu version of creation in the schools as scientific fact?

And should an atheist come knocking on my door to talk, I would invite them in for a discussion. Where's the harm in having someone say a silent prayer in school? Where is the danger to society for someone to talk to you about a belief system?

Where's the danger in posting the Koran on your courthouse? Where's the harm in teaching Hindu creation as a valid scientific alternative?

Ok I have all the reasons to hate christians and bash their beliefs and what not, but I realized how ignorant bashing someone else's beliefs made me look. Just reading some of the posts on here that are bashing christianity makes me realize that the ones doing the bashing are always the ones who make their side of the argument look idiotic.

Come on give them a break. We are all in the same boat. We would not come to this site if we were not trying to figure something out. That is all the christians are doing is searching for the same truths as the atheists.

Well, Christianity bases it's fundaments in the New Testaments and not in the Bible.

People tend to forget that the Bible (old testament) was written before Jesus came and that he changed some of the "laws" since he considered them immoral or unapt. Hence the New Testaments were written which reflect his teachings.

reply to post by scarlett1125


Lol, yeah that old Christian scapegoat is still around (In reference to the whole "God never changes" crap).
Ya see, God does change, He became a man, the man known as "Yeshua benay Elohim".
The misinterpreted and oh so often molested verse:

Hebrews 12:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

This verse is used by pastors (purposfully and sometimes unknowingly) to justify war, killing, murder and such that the evil ones who are in control of mainstream Christianity (which is contrary to the gospel of Yeshua).
The way they do it is by saying that "Since God is the same yesterday, today and forever, then He wants and comands us to go to war with the arabs and kill them all just as the israelites did.". Now this is contrary not only to the New Testiment, but the Old Testiment as well. Ishmael was blessed by God and God made him into a mighty nation, Ishmael begot (created) the Arabs, the offspring of the Nephelim and the nations they controled are the ones the Israelites were commanded to exterminate (for a very good and obvious reason too).

The true meaning of the verse is that Yeshua's teachings and the very heart and soul of who and what He is does'nt change to fit or conform to what someone wants to believe. Yeshua taugh love, peace, forgiveness and self sacrifice for the betterment of others (hard doctrine to bash). He also taught that you don't have to go to hell, but you can live with Him forever without a sinful corrupted body in Heaven.

Paul was telling the Hebrews that there are and will be strange doctines similar to what Yeshua taught that are false and will lead them astray and that the doctrine of Yeshua never changes.

The few of us who believe in His teachings understand this and are in grief over the millions being lead astray with the teachings of prosparity preachers and people who justify the mass murder and hatred of others because they do not see the Truth and the mass murder and hatred of others for a greedy governments profit.
So many are being sucked into the poison of the anti-Chists teachings, it is very sad.

I know I can't change any of it, all I can do is spread the Word.

-Jimmy

Can anyone who is currently engaged into what the trolls and baiters have brought into this thread kindly refrain from encouraging the trolls/baiters' relentless ignorance and intolerance? Nothing you say is going to change their minds. They only show up and accuse you because they are scared. Let it go and let this thread sink into oblivion.

If you just ignore them, they will go away - like every other troll.

The Bible is meant to be a story that you learn from. It's supposed to have Good and Evil in it, so you know how to tell the difference. The OP simply has zero clue that Christians only need to worry about THE 10 COMMANDMENTS, nothing else.

Why didn't the OP read the 10 Commandments? That is the only part anyone needs to worry about.

Starred and flagged.

Interesting points made by the OP. Similiar to the ones I've wondered about myself. Because the bible is full of some very harsh punishments for the most mundane of crimes, crimes we see people get small fines for everyday in U.S. courtrs where it says "In God We Trust" in every courtroom.

Like According to the bible the person who stole the pack of gum, should be put to death (in some barbaric way, I forget what the one for theft is, stoneing probbly), and the rapist given a wife(well as long as she wasn't engaged that is).

I know, I know, sometimes you shouldn't take the bible literally , and other times you should...depending on which is better for the Chistrians argument.

I love the whole "context" argument. Well the context of being killed for stealing is the rest of the commandments, and what happens if you should break one, that is the context.

But really, IF being a Christian, makes you life happier, and more fufilling, then by all means, more power to you.

But religion is responsible for more war than any other thing on this planet. I'll gladly stay out of it. That and it's not scientifically sound. I mean were dealing with people (the people that wrote the bible) who still thought the earth was flat, and it was also the center of the universe.

That's why I can't take the bible as fact. It's a decent book, a bit far fetched, for it's time it probably wasn't and seemed more factual, but it's dated, and it's obvious to me a work of fiction.

Or I just have little faith,because of whats happened to me in my lifetime, and the Devil has blinded me to the truth. I mean that with 100% sincerity.

A few people have brought up the issue of OT commandments being valid. They aren't. They were laws given to the Isrealite people by God. They aren't applicable after Christ's death.
Hebrews 8:6-10:18 discusses this. It talks about the old covenant (agreement) being temporary.

"The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves." from Hebrews 10:1.

ALLis0NE, why do you say that the 10 Commandments are all anyone needs to worry about? Everything God says is important.

Here’s my take on it all:

"Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says."(1 Corinthians 14:34)

When it reads, “they are not permitted to speak” I take that as also meaning rule or command the congregation in the same authority as the priest. Not that they aren’t allowed to talk.

"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched." (Mark 9:43)

The Law of Moses was in effect at that time and the Law of Moses used the thinking that for sinning the punishment should be physical, such as getting your hand cut off due to thievery or something. Nowadays, if someone sin’s it’s better to enter Heaven with a clean spirit and missing a limb, than a perfect body and an impure spirit.

"One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the congregation of the Lord." (Deuteronomy 23:2)

Again, another Law of Moses issue. The world is not under the Law of Moses, this has no effect to our day and age.

"Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ." (Ephesians 6:5)

The King James Bible read’s this verse as this: “Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ”

Pretty much means, obey the laws of the land.

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29

This is another law under the Law of Moses. This is kind of forcing a family rather than the “damsel’s” life be ruined because of this man. In this story, it is a silent part of the story that the damsel has been impregnated. When a mother has not husband, she’s immediately turned into an outcast in the city. This is a way of saving this damsels and the child’s lives.

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 )

“Law” is referencing to the Law of Moses, given to Moses by God. This is only saying that it’s easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than it is for the smallest section of the Lord’s law to fail.

This is all truely what i believe

reply to post by TheRedneck


Thank you very much. Unfortunately, it looks like despite my better efforts to curtail some of the back and forth between Christians and non-Christians alike it looks like this thread is heading in that direction. I don't understand it, I really don't. There is corruption in some organized religions, as well as governments, etc. There are plenty of real conspiracies out there, and we sit and waste our time arguing who's philosophical and religious beliefs are better. It's petty and childish, and in the end it accomplishes little to nothing. I refuse to be part of the problem, and I have thought about starting a neutral thread on the matter in order to incite some real legitimate conversation between those of different religions.

I dunno.

First let me start of buy saying good topic and good questions.
i will try address a few issues of this thread with my own knowledge of the scriptures and off the laws of the church.

First i will start of buy saying we as humans don't know what is god what is his laws and intentions aside from the bible witch gives us a historical account into the lives off men in the old world witch i might add was very different from our own.

I would like to remind everyone here that belief in a book and a church is not nesseserly belief in a god, to follow a church and the bible is following a set standard of tredishions and expectations that the book and the church has presented its followers.

So in a way buy being sheep and following there "shepherd" many people are already braking one of the gifts that we have as humans not only a gift but THE gift

That gift is free will, if we are but sheep and follow the shepherd then we are not out there learning exploring questioning and trying to understand god and the divine and the mysterious we are simply opening a book reading what other men many many many years ago did and trying to integrate that lifestyle in a modern world without really understanding the purpose off god.

Now i don't claim to know the purpose of god and no one can say they do
but if we use logic then free will is the one absolute that every man woman and child love and cherish, wars for as long as we have been on this planet have been fought to secure there right to freedom

in closing id like to say
to the christens
No one is bashing your faith they are asking and interested and as christens with the book you believe has the answers your job is to enlighten them to your understandings.

Athiets
Christians cant give you solid answers to questions
if you believe you die and nothing happens then that is your belief but keep in mind you have as little evidence of this happening as the Christan do off them going to heaven



p.s excuse any spelling erros i tryed my best to fix them

reply to post by dAlen

Originally posted by dAlen

Originally posted by darkelf
I have no problem with these scriptures as long as they are taken in context with the surrounding scriptures, compared to other scripture, and understood according to the situation in that particular time frame.

Pulling verses out of the Bible without context acheives nothing but confusion.

Well this I suppose is a response to both you and Howie.
I am quite familiar with the 'taking it out of context' spiel. (My milieu was Christianity inside and out, gave my life to Jesus at around the age of 6.)

However, I firmly believe that the phrase, "you have to take it in context" or "its not in context", etc. - well, I believe this is "out of context".

The phrase is overused, and needs to be retired.

The reason the phrase is overused, is due to people constantly taking the verses out of the context in which they were written.

It no longer means what it is supposed to mean. - It would seem that its used as a tool to:

a- avoid answering questions (to questions we dont ask)
b - putting people 'in place' with a buzz words so we can 'move along' with our faith unquestioned.

I answered his question and did not in any way try to “put him in his place.” I only do that when ever someone attacks me personally, and only face to face. My beliefs are constantly being questioned. I don’t believe anything simply on the basis of that is what I was taught.

It all stems from fear. The majority of Christians (or any religion) live in fear, that deep inside, something isnt right and they may be proved wrong.

If you can “prove me wrong,” go for it. I do not fear truth. Many things I have believed have been proven wrong. I seek truth.

I say its called ego. Or identifying with mental constructs, thoughts, etc.
Calling oneself a Christian, is a form of idolatry basically.
And if you cant see to the point that the words are pointing, without getting stuck in them...I would suggest its time to throw away "Christian speak" 101.

I can’t see the point of this paragraph. Please expand on what you mean.

The O.P. brings up points, that are well in context by themselves.

The OP has asked a question, he/she has made no points other than he/she feels that these verses are inhuman.

What either of you could have done is given him context. I do know that for many Christians the O.T. is kind of weighty to them, and they have a quick little speech that can easily (though not logically) get them out of a 'bind' so they can move along and pretend that the O.T. doesnt exist. ("Oh, thats Old covenant")

He didn’t ask for context, he asked if we believe this. I answered that question to the best of my ability. If he/she wishes for more info, I will happily give it. The OT balances the NT. The Laws were given to the Jews for a reason. Studying the OT gives insight to the NT.

Im not mocking anyone - trust me, I was up to this past my head...I lived it, breathed it, and now understand it in a way that is living to me. (and not just in words.)

I was raised Fundamental Baptist and am still questioning things that were taught. The Bible does not need interpretation by preachers. It explains itself if only one is willing to read it.

Again, this experience is not unique to me - Eckhart Tolle (which many Christians may label as new age) had a similar experience. (former Catholic who gave up Catholicism, and one day picked up the Bible and it made sense. - I highly recommend his audio book, particularly New Earth - as its not more dogma, doctrine, its not religion...its practicality and will help anyone regardless of their religion.)

I only put that plug in there, as he is far more eloquent in the way he puts things and more easily understood - except for those who go in expecting to hear what it is they want to hear. (but that goes with anything.)

I’ll add it to my list.

As I write this, I know that what I say will not necessarily go over well with a lot of Christians, Im not that eloquent in words and can be easily misunderstood. But for those who are open you will get the point of what it is Im saying.

I believe in keeping an open mind, just not so open that my brains fall out.

So to wrap it up, yes - on one level the words are in context as they are.
But on another level, what is being said can be seen on a higher level altogether.
I will be honest, I dont have an answer for the O.P.s O.T. questions... (well non that I can write briefly down.)

Peace

In order to understand what the verse means, you have to read the surrounding verses. You need to know who the target audience was, and you have to know a little of the history of that particular culture. That is the context of which I wrote.

con•text Audio Help ˈkɒn tɛkst - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kon-tekst] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect: You have misinterpreted my remark because you took it out of context.
2. the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc.
3. Mycology. the fleshy fibrous body of the pileus in mushrooms.

[Origin: 1375–1425; late ME < L contextus a joining together, scheme, structure, equiv. to contex(ere) to join by weaving (con- CON- + texere to plait, weave) + -tus suffix of v. action; cf. TEXT ]
Source

Originally posted by jimmyjackblack
reply to post by Shar

 

Shar, one thing you might want to take in mind is that slavery or servanthood, was not always agianst the person's will, sometimes a person would purposfully become a slave or servant to someone as payment for a debt they may have had with them. Also, slaves were not always treated badly, some slaves had it pretty good, slavery back then wasn't always like it is in modern times.

-Jimmy

Yes, of course I know this. I gave an example of this when I gave him Genesis 29 not too mention
Its all through the Bible about one serving another to pay a debt off. I was just giving him a few examples.

reply to post by Osiris1953
A fellow whom I admired once told me "If you were to give everyone in the world $1000, half of them would start complaining about it." That was a wise man.

You have done what I consider an admirable job in trying to stem the tide of anger that inevitably follows such threads, but I fear it is simply useless. I plan on doing my part simply by trying to not respond to attacks from those whose only desire is to attack. But should you try your idea, I would definitely like to see how it turns out; please feel free to U2U me with the thread addy.

As I have said before, science m,ay be a search for truth, but religion is a search for wisdom. There is much we could learn from each other, should there actually be a civil debate. It's sad to see so many people who would scowl at wisdom because of a label, but alas, that is how society works.

Know that I for one appreciate your efforts.

TheRedneck

reply to post by Osiris1953


Good idea. If you do put me on that U2U list. I wouldn't want to miss it. Without voice inflection, it is difficult to know someone's true motive behind anything written. I usually give the other person the benefit of the doubt and answer as best I can.

I have read the Bible, and many parts of it I have gone over again and again trying to make sense of it. But one truth I have found in it that I don't see how any sane person or person of good moral character can have a problem with is Jesus' saying, "Do unto others as you would have othersdo unto you." I think this is the best I have found from the Bible. What's so hard about following that belief? Any Buddhists out there that can expand upon this? I read somewhere that Jesus spent many years learning from Buddhists. Oh, wait. I am off topic. The topic was is this what you believe in followed by some quotes. Yes, I believe Christ was God incarnated as a human. I guess that makes me Christian. Are those quotes the OP posted what I believe in? Nope.