White Guilt

Your bodies are just that bodies, nothing to be held up by self importance, what we do doesn't matter to the soul, your burdens are yours alone, self doubt leads to limited intelligence, when you condemn yourself you are condemning others.

So condemn away, how many are guilty of the crimes you seek, the death plots, the murders, the lethal injections, the divorce rates, social bigotry, foul language, is that the white mans alone I THINK NOT.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Well really we are not all the same.

Realistically there are massive cultural, religious and economic differences. For one to assume you can relate to me exactly the same as you would relate to someone of Italian heritage from New York City, or an African American from Mississippi, is by all means a faulty assumption.

I got the OP's meaning, I suppose; as he has not responded in a few days, I guess I could be wrong as well. (Wont be the first time) I'm on the same page as Raso in that it is an individual thing the OP was trying to convey and not one all encompassing the white European race.

My opinion is that it is all about tolerance. I'm going to get personal here, so bear with me and accept that I have no intention of hurting any feelings, please.

My Granny taught me to be tolerant in all aspects of my life. One of the things she taught me was that tomorrow is another day, so why obsess over something that may mean nothing then.

That tolerance served me well coming off the farm in West Virginia and being shoved into a major university and then the Marines.
However it was never so poignant as when as a new officer, I was assigned to the projects in a predominantly black area. The one thing that always amazed me was the disfavor and even hatred some others felt towards the residents of this area. All because they were different than those that felt such emotions towards them.

In the years I was there, in all the roles I took as Community Police Officer, living there and even in my role as Uniform Narcotics, I made some good friends and some powerful enemies. Did the farm boy from West Virginia ever really fit in there? Nope. But it did not matter as like in most of life, there were those that accepted me for who and what I was and those that did not. I made friends with the tolerant people that accepted me as I accepted them, without a requirement from them or me to change. The intolerant people? Well we are going to have those people with us our entire lives. Have to get used to them.

The point is tolerance. I don't require that everyone look like, act like or live like me to be my friend. I can not hate or dislike anyone because of the color of their skin, what church they go to or the country they hail from. Granny taught me better and I really wish others would have been taught by her.

I don't feel guilty because I'm white, but I do feel badly when I see discrimination, and no matter what some would like for us to believe, it is out there. FAR TO MUCH...

I can feel bad that many. MANY black youths from the projects will never really have the opportunities they need to succeed. Yes I came from nothing and made myself a success with help from no one, but not everyone is like me. Remember, I don't require them to be. Some people, young people especially, need a helping hand and all to often it is not forthcoming especially those from the projects and other economically distressed areas.

I know I am sounding more and more like a Lib here, but it is how I feel. We can blame anything we want to in order to make us feel better about ourselves. Like the situation of Black fathers abandoning their families. Yet how does our blaming this, or anything, help the children? I would suggest a little less blame and deflection and a little more solutions. Before you ask, I do NOT have the solutions, I wish to God I did, but I am just not that intelligent.

What difference does it really make WHY children are being caught up in a circle of economic defeat and depression? Is not the solution more important than the cause? So perhaps we could stop worrying about why it has happened, and start working on fixing it.

These are just my thoughts and as I am feeling extraordinarily pensive tonight, don't expect me to always be this way..

Semper

I agree... and disagree. People of different religion culture blah, all those things and such, yes we are different in THAT way, but race wise because of color is what im talking about. I understand that people dont want to accept these things because they have differing and opposing view points, BUT the color of our skin should not be the reason of opposition

Originally posted by The Bear Man

I agree... and disagree. People of different religion culture blah, all those things and such, yes we are different in THAT way, but race wise because of color is what im talking about. I understand that people dont want to accept these things because they have differing and opposing view points, BUT the color of our skin should not be the reason of opposition

Bear,

Since the isolation of the black population into ghettos post Civil War a new culture has formed. These are the differences that Semper was talking about. The color of the populations skin just makes it easier to identify them as a part of a different culture.

I want to be completely honest.

I hate "ghetto people" Not black.. not white asian or anything, just the want to be "ghetto" (not poor people who live in the ghetto just those people who WANT to be ghetto)

but I dont see why you can judge people by where they are from or what they look like. Just cause you live in the ghettos doesnt mean your ghetto, it just means you didnt have the best opprotunitys in life.
I am white and I date a black woman, our culture is very different obviously as I often times get beat(she hits me a lot I rather think its cute because im a boxer and am used to much harder.) because of things I say or do.

Example. *sexy voice* such a hot brown piece of nutty fudge in this line, something like I wanna get one. (she thought I meant her dad we joke around like that and she gets grossed out) when I was saying in my joking way "Hey hun look, its my favorite food! A Brownie!"

Just because culturally we are different doesnt mean we cant get along well.


On a side note, not all blacks are "ghetto" nor are all whites "Upstanding chaps" theres opposites on both ends. It shouldnt be based on color but by character.

which again I state, why the hate?(yay a rhyme)
(sorry if im using black/white a lot, but im going off the OP at the moment, I could use other races in detail as well if need be)

reply to post by Rasobasi420


To use race as an indicator is wrong in my opinion.

It fails to take into account the black populations who have migrated to America willingly. A black man may be a highly qualified professional who obtained a green card. Why must we use race as a correlative tool when it comes to social mobility?

What also, of the whites in the ghettos. I would say that a white man from the ghettos and a black man from the ghettos would have cultural similarities which are far closer than a black man from the ghettos and a recently immigrated, professional black man. Dont forget that the "black culture" or "gangster culture" of ghettos also includes whites, latinos and others.

Race is thus not a good indicator of cultural differences. I would say social status, economic status and class are far more important.

reply to post by semperfortis


Awesome post man.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Some people, young people especially, need a helping hand and all to often it is not forthcoming especially those from the projects and other economically distressed areas.

This is especially true. The simple fact is that public education in distressed communities is extremely poor and leaves even the best students unprepared for the world outside of their community. Young people need to work twice as hard for half the recognition.

Is it the fault of 'the white man'? No. Is it disappointing? Yes. Is there something we can do about it? Sure as hell can, but it takes recognition of the problem, sympathy for the situation that many youth are caught in, and the will and self sacrifice it takes to see the inequalities and do something about it.

And you're right, it's not guilt per se, but more of a recognition of inequities.

And as they say, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

reply to post by The Bear Man


I too was raised to be tolerant of other races,religion and ideologies.What can't betolerated is the disrespect shown by many people of many races.
This country was built on differences,just like the strongest steel comes from the mixture of different metals.It boils down to culture issues.All of us are far removed from the countries where we origionated .We create our own culture as we go,and prejudge others by our own standards of behavior.It's neither right nor wrong it just is.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
I once again bring up the analogy of two children at Christmas. One gets a new bike, the other gets a pair of dirty socks.

But real life isn't like a family gathered around the christmas tree 'getting' stuff. We have to work for what we have. We have to work at who we are.

Sure - there are the Paris Hiltons in the world who are born into money. I don't begrudge them that. I'm not jealous or 'bitter'. It has nothing to do with me, who I am, or where I am in life.

I'm the first person in my family to get a college degree.
My parents were the first people in their respective families to graduate high school.

Each generation works hard and tries hard to go further.

If my parents sat on their butts complaining about what life had dealt them, and blamed everyone else for their situations, then (like their parents before them) they would have stayed poor and never finished school.

If I had sat on my butt and whined that my dad was on welfare and that I couldn't afford college because of what life had dealt me, then I would never have gotten anywhere.

They found a way to raise themselves up.
I found a way to raise myself up.

America doesn't promise happiness or success.
It promises that you can go out and PERSUE it.

So ... everyone melt in and persue it. It's the only way to get ahead.



[edit on 5/16/2008 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by 44soulslayer

Race is thus not a good indicator of cultural differences. I would say social status, economic status and class are far more important.

Of course they are, but it's not always easy to tell the social status, economic status and class when glancing at an individual from half a block away. Many will use the race of the individual (consciosly or unconciously) to make immediate judgments of an individual.

There's a part of the brain called the amygdala that controls the snap emotional reactions of an individual.

en.wikipedia.org...
The amygdalae (Latin, also corpus amygdaloideum, singular amygdala, from Greek αμυγδαλή, amygdalē, 'almond', 'tonsil')[1] are almond-shaped groups of neurons located deep within the medial temporal lobes of the brain in complex vertebrates, including humans.[2] Shown in research to perform a primary role in the processing and memory of emotional reactions, the amygdalae are considered part of the limbic system.[3]

This is what's responsible for the 'once bitten twice shy' syndrome, and has helped many species of animals survive for millions of years. It's what makes someone who was bitten by a cobra fear garter snakes.

This is also what makes a victim of a crime, or the witness of a crime, or an individual who saw something bad on TV cringe in fear when they see someone with similar features to a perpetrator of a crime.

So the fear is easily explainable, but on that note, we can't ignore it and say "It is what it is". We need to say "It was, and it should never be again".

I question your rationale of judging in fullty... Im sorry but why judge anyone on anything but their character? Is it so important about their status if they are good people? I mean, job wise yes.. but in your own personal criteria it should come down to people you can trust and get along with.

We need to stop the judgementalness of society and keep that to the workplace(race excluded, that shouldnt be a factor unless specific races are needed for roles of movies and such.)

reply to post by FlyersFan


FF, of course we need to work hard to get far in life. That is not up for debate. But the bike I was referring to was the gift to many white people of not being even slightly judged by skin tone. The gift is not surprising people by being intelligent and articulate. I can't tell you how many times I've been told how 'well spoken' I am and all I can think is, "no sh!+!".

The gift is also not necessarily growing up in a region where you have to be afraid of getting hit by a stray bullet on the way home from school. Many black youth in the ghetto have to work harder in school to get the the same education as most suburban public schools, and private schools. Then, they have to worry about being a victim of violence on their way to and from.

Believe me, it is a gift.

Here's an interesting paper on the subject of the black population in the ghetto, and the result of being poor in urban areas.

books.nap.edu...

[edit on 16-5-2008 by Rasobasi420]

reply to post by The Bear Man


Bear, it's not a rational judgment. And of course it's not a good template, but it happens. And it's noticed.

reply to post by Rasobasi420


True I suppose, I just think it needs to stop and I would hope people could learn to be less ignorant in these times... guess a guy can dream

reply to post by The Bear Man


Agreed. But, the only way we can do that is by acknowledging that it happens and taking steps toward resolving it rather than ignoring it and sweeping it under the rug as an embarrassing truth.

reply to post by Rasobasi420


I openly show myself daily that im against it People look at my girlfriend and I with disgust because shes black and im white.. its annoying but if she gets bothered I tell her that I love HER and no matter what it wont change that ^_^;;

Just wish more people could be open and stop hiding in the shadows and yelling insults from the alleys(so to speak)

reply to post by Rasobasi420


You make a good point about race being used as a prima facie indicator of a person's character. That is the very definition of stereotype, and you are quite correct in saying that it is a wrong thing to do.

However, you yourself picked up on the point that racism is almost innate. The amygdala may be responsible for people crossing the road when they see a roughly dressed black man. Whether or not this is reprehensible is a different issue. If a 1/3rd of all black men do have a criminal record, is it not a sensible step to take?

I have found however, that once past the prima facie indicators, people will genuinely judge others for their intrinsic worth and character. Perhaps it is because I live in England, but I have never once felt disadvantaged because of my race. Sure I have been rather patronisingly told "Wow you are very eloquent", but that is about the extent of racism that I have ever felt. Naturally there are some "actual" racist skinheads, but who really cares about their views anyway...

You also mentioned that white people have a "gift" in life because they are not going to be prejudged. Well what about other racial groups? Asian people will be prejudged and stereotyped as being intelligent and hardworking; black people will be prejudged at being good at sports etc etc.

In the end, as long as when it truly matters (such as university entrance or job interviews) people are judged fairly on their character and ability, then justice will have been served.

Again, and I speak as an "ethnic minority" here, I have never felt disadvantaged by my race. I have been prejudged and stereotyped, but ultimately my worth is determined by my character.

Those who would judge me by my race rather than my character beyond first impressions are of no consequence to me... let them live in their ignorance.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer

You also mentioned that white people have a "gift" in life because they are not going to be prejudged. Well what about other racial groups? Asian people will be prejudged and stereotyped as being intelligent and hardworking; black people will be prejudged at being good at sports etc etc.

When I spoke of the 'gift' I certainly didn't mean it in any literal way. I meant that as a society, we shouldn't stand idly by gorging ourselves as our brothers are picking undigested bits of food from the vomitorium to sustain their families.

That goes for everyone. Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo and Violet.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
Those who would judge me by my race rather than my character beyond first impressions are of no consequence to me... let them live in their ignorance.

I'm on the same page as you are, but not everyone is. And, people will get angry because of it, understandably.

I'd love to give everyone who's ever been persecuted and prejudged a copy of my favorite spiritual and philosophical books, but I don't have that much credit at Kinko's

reply to post by Rasobasi420


Raso,

You can sure recommend them here. I promise you I will certainly look into them..

Semper

Just thought I would share with you what I consider to be the seminal account of the free market approach to combating racism:

The true antidote to racism is liberty. Liberty means having a limited, constitutional government devoted to the protection of individual rights rather than group claims. Liberty means free-market capitalism, which rewards individual achievement and competence, not skin color, gender, or ethnicity. In a free market, businesses that discriminate lose customers, goodwill, and valuable employees – while rational businesses flourish by choosing the most qualified employees and selling to all willing buyers. More importantly, in a free society every citizen gains a sense of himself as an individual, rather than developing a group or victim mentality. This leads to a sense of individual responsibility and personal pride, making skin color irrelevant. Rather than looking to government to correct what is essentially a sin of the heart, we should understand that reducing racism requires a shift from group thinking to an emphasis on individualism.

- Congressman Ron Paul, 2002.


The full speech can be read here.