Originally posted by optimistic skeptic


When I read the title of your thread, I thought, "looks interesting..." Then, I clicked on it and said (out loud), "OMG. This guy - again!"

LOL that is funny, at least you called out to God . hehe

Seriously, I am not going to exhaust myself with all the points that people have already made to you based on logical reason and scientific proof. Obviously, nothing ever gets through anyway.

You know we feel the same way don't you ?

Also, you seem like a very educated person, so I'm sure you already know all the facts that I could list here to argue with you. (Which also confuses me - because you DO seem education and reasonable, I don't understand for the life of me why you haven't seen right through your "truth" and "faith" already.)

Well,, you would be correct, whammy is an engineer, he got straight A's in physics, Calculus, Chemistry but just what did you mean with the rest of that? Are you saying he seems too smart to believe what he does?

But...I have another point to make. As a person who lived a life of Christianity for the first 21 (brainwashed) years of my life, I don't see anything "Christ-like" about you in any of your threads.

I wouldn't know about that one until I see some of Jesus posts, I couldn't make that kind of judgement.

You waste so much time here trying to prove a point that is unable to be proven.

Well that kind of futility never stopped Darwinists from doing the same thing with an even more difficult to prove theory.

I'm referring to things such as serving soup in a transient home, working in Africa for the eradication of Malaria, volunteering at an animal shelter, delivering meals to the sick, etc, etc, etc.

Oh, by the way - all of the above are activities that I enjoy. And - I don't think I'll be "rewarded" in an afterlife for them.

I guess that brainwashing didn't take or you took your first years experience as a Christian and repeated it for 20 years because the Bible is pretty explicit about saying your works are as filthy rags for it is not for the good that we do that we are saved, but is the gift of God.

- Con

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

if you're living in bizzarro world.


argument ad populum

he's good because he sells a lot of books, therefore a lot of people think he's good

Mad if you are going to continue using the protocols for logical fallacy, please learn them first. He isn't good because he sells a lot of books Madnessss. He sells a lot of books because he is good.

argument from authority.

...and honestly, this isn't a political forum, so i'm not going to go there

Again this is NOT an argument from auithority madness you need to read some examples for that so you get a better idea what it looks like rather than say it everytime someone establishes credentials. Oh and by the way, it was Nancy that was going to the astrologer.

What are Hitchens qualifications? Free lance writer and known drunkard? - Bigwhammy

argument ad hominem


well, at least he's got logical consistency, something you've not demonstrated

in fact, you've got 3 logical fallacies in response to one of my points.

Well I guess you told him huh madness. I mean the last person we wouldn't want to listen to on the subject of debate is the undefeated champion of ATS. NO one has ever beaten you as you have boasted to me , so I guess we are in the presence of an expert who never loses
No he does not, furthermore, YOU don't know how to distinguish logical fallacy from a simple inquiry. He was ASKING a Question Madness not a supposition for you to exploit fallacy logical or not. Can you tell he is is speaking extemporaneuously or do you think you are in a damn debate about hitchens being a foul mouthed drunk?

Ad Hom? NOPE,, and wouldn't matter because what I just said is a fact.

nice justification. god also supports genocide. does that mean that your vendetta against atheists is now genocidal?

I thought I told you their is no vendetta madness why do you insist on superimposing your false assumptions on us like that. If you are going to do things like that than why do you bother asking us questions when you already know what we think. Apparently you are a mind reader.

honestly, admire the good things atheists have done for humanity
don't want to? then get off ATS because you shouldn't be using the computer you're on...invented by a gay atheist.
that's a double whammy against god, eh?

Sorry madness if you are going to escape culpability by saying nothing was done in the name of Atheism than no computer was either.

no, it's a personal statement and interpretation of the consequences of atheism and a display of my personal journey towards atheism.

Journey of Atheism? Kiinda strange when you consider Atheism doesn't do anything, think anyting say anything al all that other stuff you say they don't do but NOW all of a sudden its a Journey

to nowhere I assume.

no, and the times you've attempted to prove this have been thoroughly refuted.

communists didn't kill in the name of atheism, they killed in the name of communism.

No they didn't kill in the name of Communism but they were communists second, Atheists FIRST so nice try slick.

i'd like to see you prove that people have died in the name of there not being a god.

HUH???? what?? english please.

- Con






[edit on 5-6-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by optimistic skeptic


Wow...you took a lot of time addressing my comments that took me 30 seconds to come up with...thanks - I feel important! :duh

Ha ha Ok then.

Anyway...I'm sorry that you feel the same way about "nothing getting through" to us "science people." Trust me honey, I grew up in the Baptist church 4 times a week and was married to a preacher's son - there's not a lot about the bible on which you can enlighten me.

Oh hehe I wasn't going to try, that lol just was curious about that one issue but I think that explained well enough and no offense was ever taken so nothing to concern ourselves over then.

And no - the brainwashing apparently didn't "take." It was only when I separated myself from the bombardment of religious propaganda and took my first course on evolution that I began to understand how I'd been lied to my entire life.

Yeah Religion preys on people I have seen that too.

And to address your final comment - if I recall (forgive me, it's been 10 years since I've been in the church)....the entire "mansions and streets of gold and everything your heart desires" descriptions of your heaven are based solely on your "deeds" you do on Earth in the name of Jesus...am I wrong, sir?

Mmmm I think you are right on that so I stand corrected.

Also, as a disclaimer - I have nothing but love for most Christians. Almost everyone I know is of your faith. However, I simply cannot understand people who stake claims on religion, and don't serve their fellow man.

I wouldn't know how they are not serving there fellow man. I don't have that kind of intimate knowledge of them.

I know our church is very involved in activities like you suggest.

- Con

Conspiriology:

I've seen your insults, bigotry, ignorance, and misrepresentation of facts.

Now let's see some evidence. You seem to forget that the one making the radical claim, the one trying to prove the positive, is the one that needs to present the evidence. So far there is none.

i just realized now that the image i posted in the previous post was a bit cut off, please click on it for the full image so you can properly understand how it illustrates my point.

the mathematician to the right is cut off on my computer . But i've seen the comic before.

who's the guy all the way on the right?

a philosopher (?)

thanks for crediting the comic site


the OP's allegations have yet to be refuted it seems?

[edit on 6/16/2008 by JPhish]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

For instance "In the Beginning" the first words in your bible comes from one Hebrew word "resh-t" that always means a period of time not a point in time.So "in the beginning" could be 7 days or 10 billion years we do not know. Th 7 day account is describing the preparation of the place for man to live; not the creation of the actual universe that was done "in the beginning" and he doesn't say how exactly. But I think we can definitely pull out some clues from scripture and I find nothing that really conflicts.

Actually there is a very strong case that the phrase, "in the beginning," should be read, "Gods in the beginning," and then it goes on to, "created the heavens and earth."

Note the plural, "Gods," if this is the case then that puts a whole new twist on creation which I think positively effects the picture.

Gods in the plural also fits and makes more harmony with other verses in Genesis such as Genesis 1:26 were it reads plural again and is translated, "let US make man in OUR image."

Also if you look at the Hebrew you will see that the earth was not, "created," without form or void but that it, "became," without form and void.

Verse 1:1 of Genesis it the creation of the heavens and the earth verse 1:2 is where the earth becomes without from and void.

There is no reference to time made between verse one and verse two.

In other sections of scripture you can read accounts of the original creation what we now live in is sometimes referred to as the second heaven and earth which was the remains of the original simply redesigned.

This is why when you get to Genesis 1:9 Gods do not have to create anything it is simply put into a new working order by uttering the spoken word, let there be light for instance, it is not a creating it is a reordering of this heaven and earth.

There are only three acts of creation mentioned in Genesis that I am aware of..

1/ The original creation of verse 1:1
2/ The creation of soul or breath life in animals of verse 1:21
3/ The creation of the image of the Gods in man of verse 1:27

The heaven and earth that we now live in was not created or the result of the original creation but the reordering of the original heaven and earth after it became tohuw bohuw or without from and void in Genesis1:2.

You can read about how the original heaven and earth became empty and shapeless in other sections of scripture from the bible and in other holy texts from other religions.

But back to this whole issue of tring to convince others of the existence of God and get ashiest and science to see the light.

If a creator God exists and is everywhere present and all powerful then it is literally impossible for anyone who is conscious, at a certain point and level of consciousness, not to be aware of that fact.

This is the reason that they as all of us are without an excuse, and you are wasting your time, because it is not that they don't, "KNOW," of the existence of a creator it is impossible not to, "KNOW," it is that we choose to believe in belief or we choose to believe in disbelief.

You can not change a persons mind about their belief whether it is belief in the existence of creator God or belief in the non existence of a creator God.

No matter how persuasive an argument you make the changing of the a persons heart requires the energizing of spiritual power within the life or soul of an individual in order for that individual to become aware of the goodness of God so that they are able to change.

The natural man cannot know the things of the spirit of God, they are discerned by spiritual means, the greater reality of the spiritual can not be analyzed it can only be ascertained.

To the mind which only know logic and reason the things of the spirit are foolishness and can never be more.

Your mistake is in not knowing the purpose for the existence of the reality in which we find ourselves.

It is not for the benefit of us who believe but to allow for disbelief.

All of us should be thankful when a person refuses to believe, without the unbeliever no believer would ever be born.

Our goal should be to manifest spiritual power, to have revelation knowledge, wisdom, faith, miracles and the gifts of healing to impart to those who believe not to those who do not.

God must reveal to us by supernatural means who to speak with and who to allow to be delivered into the hands of the God of this world for the destruction of the body.

To use the mind to determine for yourself who to speak to and with about the things of God is nothing but religion, the work of Satan to deceive the mind, to bribe your heart, by offering your hearts desire, the things of this world.

Let us grow together until the harvest.

When there is none left who do not believe and none left to be born who will not believe then the creator will dissolve this reality and give us a new body, source for life not of the air, and a new heaven in earth in which to dwell peacefully forever.

Just as implying science is based on fact, calculation and observance over time, as well as exorcising the option of tossing in some experimentation along the way, a side of fact on a bed of mathematics, and finally, placing a garnish of "the big bang is as good as any theory" to top off the cosmetic value, thus completing the main course presentation to our dinner plate of creationism, then, through interpretation of a request discovered in consideration of an additional half shekel, the meal can be super-sized and includes evolution - (with or without faith). Suddenly an overlooked realization materialized within conscious thought from outside the universe that, as a result of subconscious error calculating required logistics, manifested lack of sufficient room on our dinner plate to accommodate the now additional portions. Rather than engaging in argument over beliefs, the evolution and faith were quickly devoured, eliminating the need for space.

Without the need for space, man then poked and prodded the Earth, and in cohabitation with everything on the planet, it was soon evident that to deduce results in findings, we must then conclude that the only thing needed, or necessary is ourself and as creator of ourself, religion and God concepts were tossed out like a dirty snot rag to the trash.

After building amazing and wonderful structures and devices, the only real and verifiable all encompassing fact was:
Anything man-made, will eventually fail, brake, or be destroyed.
All else is not verifiable as fact.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

Have you looked at the word resh-t in Hebrew newday? It is a period of time not a point in time. I was refering to the book genesis unbound by Hebrew scholar Salihamer for my information. What is your source?

The idea I mentioned rests on the fact that the Book of Genesis, " biblov genesewv," or "book of the generations," from the greek Septuagint, was called in the hebrew language Bere#h, "beginnings," or "in the begriming," taken from the first word, "reshyth," and the customs of the people.

It is not an accepted idea so no one is willing to put their approval on it, like the idea that the word, "elohym," is actually in the plural, "Gods," not singular, "God."

Many people have known this down through the ages and have verbally told it to others, in an oral tradition kind of way, but no one of religious authority who depends on the maintaining of officially recognized and sanctioned notions of belief for their livelihood, ever has or is going to put their, "good name," at risk by endorsing such things.

They may talk about them behind closed doors with someone they know and trust but that would be the extent of it.

People by in large keep any number of secret, question, thoughts, and beliefs, they may have about things like that, to themselves, especially those individuals of stature or status who are invested in the system so to speak, like professional people, because they fear how they may be seen by their communities and what consequences might befall them if they speak freely as to their true feelings.

It is an intrinsic failing of organized religion, and most all forms of government for that matter, that they breed conformity and submission covertly among those who use them as the means of sustaining themselves.

I am of the opinion that true worship is true spirituality, the power of all in all, all the power of God in the hands of all the people involved, nothing is hidden.

All the great religions began as true movements of God in true spirituality, they then declined to religion

Religion is a denial of the power of God, the giving over of your power to the hands of those few who organize the religion and live at the expense of those who practice it.

Science is born out of religion, because it is a sense knowledge attempt to regain some of the power we once enjoyed in true worship, which we have lost to religion.

What is your view of religion and science?

[edit on 26-6-2008 by newday]

[edit on 26-6-2008 by newday]