Bolton: Striking Iran 'Is Really The Most Prudent Thing To Do'», page 3

reply to post by The Nighthawk

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Originally posted by The Nighthawk

Originally posted by jsobecky
I'm a guy, Nighthawk.

Actually, you're a troll.

No you are.

Originally posted by The Nighthawk

Adolescent, eh? Care to actually try and dispute the documented lies of George W. Bush with referenced facts, instead of bull#?

Nah, they're just a bunch of liberal whiney bullcrap.

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
Got some sources to back up your "Liberal Newsrag" comment?

Ask and ye shall receive:

Tribune Covers For Obama's Terrorist Friends
By Cliff Kincaid
May 8, 2008

The Chicago Tribune, which once employed Barack Obama campaign strategist David Axelrod, is refusing to publish the truth about a Weather Underground terrorist bombing that killed a policeman. The paper apparently does not want to tarnish the image of Obama friends Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, who were allegedly part of or had direct knowledge of the bombing plot that also injured several other police officers. The Tribune considers Ayers an education expert and has published various articles by him

www.gopusa.com...

lame tactics like "People like you"

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
Yeah, People like You, who cheerlead for an illegitimate, criminal administration despite a mountain of evidence that they're dragging his entire country, and You with it, down. People who would rather blame "liberals" for the problems we face instead of pointing the finger directly at your Exalted Leader who tells you right up-front he's the "Decider" while whining about them damn Congressional Democrats and calling the Constitution a "G-dDamned Piece of Paper". Yes. People like YOU.

Uh, he is The Decider. isn't he? And do you remember what BJ Clinton said about the government? "The purpose of government is to rein in the rights of the people"

He also said "You can't say you love your country and hate your government."

all topped off by a personal attack

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
My personal attack is valid. You support another war of aggression against a sovereign country that has not attacked us and is in no position to do so. People lay out the evidence for you again and again that Iran is not the hard-line, raging Fundamentalist exapnsionist Islamic state you seem to think it is, they provide for you the evidence that Iran and Iraq are on a road to friendship and a strong alliance, and you refuse to even consider it because it disputes what you've been told by your Exalted Leader and his cronies about why we need more war.

There are only a few possibilities here as to why you're so obstinate in your refusal to consider basic facts:

Not facts, toots, opinions. You believe everything Ahmadinejead says. He pisses on your neck and tells you it's raining, and you believe him. You hate your country.

And personal attacks are never valid. Except like in your case, when there's a hole in your bucket and that's all you have left. Groupspeak and groupthink - that's what People Like You are made of.

I take it a lot of you don't keep up with the news here.
(By news I mean the alternative media not Faux News or CONN...)
news.yahoo.com...
www.atimes.com...

None of the serious allegations brought against Iran have bared any fruit.

When Iraq's government spokesman himself says he has yet to see any hard evidence of Iranian support for Shiite militias, I think his judgment supersedes some armchair warrior like Bolton.

It's time to see this smear campaign for what it really is. The Bush Admin crying wolf again.
Don't fall for the same people who had you believe Iraq had WMD's and supported Al-Qaeda; both statements of which turned out to be outright lies.

Their going through the same step-by-step process right out of the Republican playbook to create some half-baked pretext for war with Iran and people are actually still falling for it.
Hard to fathom...


[edit on 9/5/08 by The Godfather of Conspira]

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira

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Take out Iran soon. Iran is the main pillar within The Axis of Evil. Imagine a ME without Iran. All the cards will fall into place. Peace and prosperity is a real possibility in the ME if the Iranian threat is eliminated. As Henry Kissenger said recently "the road out of Iraq is through Iran."

reply to post by ufoorbhunter

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Right, and do you have any basis for these allegations or are you just floating this crap around incessantly?

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira

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Iran is supplying its proxies throughout the ME with weapons to kill British and American and Israeli troops. It's a fact dood. You may be a limp wristed liberal. Iran is the main pillar within The Axis of Evil. Take out Iran and the ME looks a really better place. Ourmaninadinnerjacket was in the embassy siege, he now rules this Iranian state that doesn't play ball. Eliminate his team and we play a whole different ball game. It's a very serious option and a very easy one at that.

Originally posted by jsobecky
No you are.

Pot, quit pissin' on my Kettle.

Nah, they're just a bunch of liberal whiney bullcrap.

Oh yes, you're sooooo much more mature.

And now for the meat, what little there is, of your post "discrediting" the Tribune for its "liberal" coverage:

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
Got some sources to back up your "Liberal Newsrag" comment?

Ask and ye shall receive:

Tribune Covers For Obama's Terrorist Friends
By Cliff Kincaid
May 8, 2008

www.gopusa.com...

Very interesting. I did a basic Google search on Cliff Kincaid. Turns out he's the editor for Accuracy In Media (AIM), a right-wing smear group that has a history of throwing around baseless accusations against varied media outlets for what they see as "liberal bias". Among their major donors have been Texaco, Mobil Oil, and Union Carbide--certainly not the kind of people who could benefit from pro-corporate, right-wing propaganda and spin, surely?

AIM apparently has a collective hard-on for Joe McCarthy and his anti-communist witch-hunting, criticizes legitimate news articles as "left-wing" and "pro-communist", and funded by billionaire Richard Mellon Scaife, engaged in an "investigation" of Vincent Foster's suicide, contending he was "murdered" by the Clintons despite three independent reports to the contrary (including one by Anti-Clinton Head Inquisitor Ken Starr himself) and still maintains Foster was murdered, largely based on "investigative" work by Christopher W. Ruddy (which even arch-Neo-Con columnist Ann Coulter describes as a Hoax). They even have gone after Fox News for not being conservative enough.

AIM Overview

Kincaid goes so far as to claim Mark Foley, disgraced Republican pedophile, along with other gay Republicans, are actually Democratic Party undercover operatives:

So if the gay Republicans are not really Republicans, what are they? One veteran observer of this network told AIM that the Foley scandal should make it crystal clear that the gay Republicans are in reality "liberal activists" who want to use the party to advance the same homosexual agenda embraced by the Democrats.

Cliff Kincaid's Gay Conspiracy Theory

Oh those Scary Gay People!!

Basically Kincaid is a kook and a liar bought and paid for by right-wing extremists who gets his jollies doing smear jobs against anything and anyone his masters deem "Communist". Hardly someone I would consider a credible source to illustrate the "liberal bias" of the Chicago Tribune. Especially since they did publish an anti-Obama article on this very subject barely two weeks before Kincaid's smear:

About Obama's terrorist acquaintance
Steve Chapman
April 20, 2008

"But he is friendly with William Ayers, a leader of the radical Weather Underground, which in the 1970s carried out numerous bombings, including one inside the U.S. Capitol. (Though the last person who should object is Hillary Clinton, whose husband pardoned two Weather Underground members.)"

Here's the article in case you doubt.

If you're going to smear a newspaper for its supposed bias in "covering up" for Democratic candidates, it might help if you (and Kincaid, since he's your "source") actually read the damn paper you're smearing once in a while.

Uh, he is The Decider. isn't he?

Only if you believe in the "Unitary Executive" theory. By the way, "unitary Executive"=snappy catchphrase for "Dictator".

And do you remember what BJ Clinton said about the government? "The purpose of government is to rein in the rights of the people"

Clinton said a lot of stupid things, and did a lot of stupid things (like deregulating media ownership rules, effectively destroying career opportunities for people working in media, and allowing right-wing mega-corporations almost complete control over what we see and hear).

He also said "You can't say you love your country and hate your government."

And he was wrong.

Not facts, toots, opinions.

Like your "opinion" that Bush's lies were all made up by "whiny liberals"? You have yet to back that statement up, oh Great Master Debater. I didn't see any facts, just more smear and attacks.

You believe everything Ahmadinejead says.

Ahmadinejad isn't the one making claims here. Bolton is, based on what even the Iraqi government says is a bold-faced lie.

You hate your country.

No, I hate what my country is doing, things that are twisting it into a vision of America very different from what I was brought up to believe in. There's a difference. We're not the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave anymore. We're the Land of the Watched and the Home of the Mindlessly Aggressive.

And personal attacks are never valid.

And yet you engage in them constantly. Way to take the high road!!

Groupspeak and groupthink - that's what People Like You are made of.

Amazing. Simply amazing. You post the Right Wing's "Talking Points" almost word-for-word, and accuse me of group-think. Again, Pot, Kettle. Do you really have anything of substance? Anything to offer? Or is this pathetic excuse for "debate" the best you can do?

[edit on 5/12/2008 by The Nighthawk]

[edit on 5/12/2008 by The Nighthawk]

Originally posted by ufoorbhunter
reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira

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Iran is supplying its proxies throughout the ME with weapons to kill British and American and Israeli troops. It's a fact dood.

No. It's an allegation. And a dubious one at best.
There is no hard proof linking the Iranian government to Shiite Militias in Iraq. Show me evidence, oh wise one.

You may be a limp wristed liberal.

And your probably another Republican armchair warrior. What's your point?
Does me being Liberal has anything to do with the facts major media outlets are spreading?

Ourmaninadinnerjacket was in the embassy siege, he now rules this Iranian state that doesn't play ball.

One word: DEBUNKED.
www.cnn.com...

Just like the "Israel off the map speech" turned out be a complete fabrication to try and smear Ahmadinejad:
www.mohammadmossadegh.com...
www.juancole.com...

Eliminate his team and we play a whole different ball game. It's a very serious option and a very easy one at that.

Yeah damn right you'd be in a different ball game you'd be stuck in 3 quagmires instead of 2 currently.

If you think Iran would be a cakewalk compared to Iraq your seriously deluding yourself.
Iran is twice the size of the Iraq, with 3 times more people, a modernized military and far more sects, ethnic groups and civil tensions.
Iran would 10 times worse than Iraq. The country wouldn't stabilize for decades to come and all the hawks in the Bush Admin would get out of it is more Oil Revenue.

Shiites everywhere would be in uproar, the Middle Eastern powderkeg would finally blow and Bush & Co. would be seen for what they really are: imperialists motivated by sheer greed.

reply to post by ufoorbhunter

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Originally posted by ufoorbhunter
reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira

---

Iran is supplying its proxies throughout the ME with weapons to kill British and American and Israeli troops. It's a fact dood. You may be a limp wristed liberal. Iran is the main pillar within The Axis of Evil. Take out Iran and the ME looks a really better place. Ourmaninadinnerjacket was in the embassy siege, he now rules this Iranian state that doesn't play ball. Eliminate his team and we play a whole different ball game. It's a very serious option and a very easy one at that.

You are absolutely correct about Iran supplying the insurgents with arms and training. There is mounting evidence to support that claim.

Ahmadinejead was in the embassy siege, and his remarks about pushing Israel into the ocean should be taken as a direct threat. He was given an opportunity to clarify his remarks in an interview, but weasel-worded his way around a direct answer:

Confusing matters further, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad pontificates rather than give a direct answer when questioned about the statement, such as in Lally Weymouth's Washington Post interview in September 2006:



Q: Are you really serious when you say that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

A: We need to look at the scene in the Middle East — 60 years of war, 60 years of displacement, 60 years of conflict, not even a day of peace. Look at the war in Lebanon, the war in Gaza — what are the reasons for these conditions? We need to address and resolve the root problem.

Q: Your suggestion is to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth?

A: Our suggestion is very clear:... Let the Palestinian people decide their fate in a free and fair referendum, and the result, whatever it is, should be accepted.... The people with no roots there are now ruling the land.

Q: You've been quoted as saying that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth. Is that your belief?

A: What I have said has made my position clear. If we look at a map of the Middle East from 70 years ago...


Q: So, the answer is yes, you do believe that it should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

A:Are you asking me yes or no? Is this a test? Do you respect the right to self-determination for the Palestinian nation? Yes or no? Is Palestine, as a nation, considered a nation with the right to live under humane conditions or not? Let's allow those rights to be enforced for these 5 million displaced people.

www.mohammadmossadegh.com...

Originally posted by jsobecky
You are absolutely correct about Iran supplying the insurgents with arms and training. There is mounting evidence to support that claim.

This has now thoroughly been debunked. The Iraqi government says it is not so, and even the US has now admitted its earlier claims of an Iranian source for the weapons in question were inaccurate. See this thread for details.

Ahmadinejead was in the embassy siege,

Ahmadinejad had no role in US Embassy siege: Hostage-takers
IRNA - Islamic Republic News Agency

Tehran, July 1, IRNA
Iran-US-Ahmadinejad
The three leading Iranian hostage-takers here Friday vehemently denied the reports on President-elect Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's role in the 1979 US Embassy siege.

Abbas Abdi, Mohsen Mirdamadi, and Hamid Reza Jalaeipour, the leaders of "Students Following the Path of Imam" taking the embassy, said the reports on Ahmadinejad's involvement were not true.

Some US Embassy officials taken hostage after the victory of the Islamic Revolution have claimed Ahmadinejad was one of their captors and interrogators, while the trio said the president-elect did not accompany the hostage-takers even for one minute.

US Embassy Siege

ARTicles on Ahmadinejad

Considering how the embassy siege was used by the CIA and military to discredit Jimmy Carter and hand Reagan the Presidency, and that the siege was, in my view, legitimately motivated (US mucking in Iranian affairs using the Embassy as a base for espionage--don't tell me it doesn't happen) I find it hard to sympathize with the hostages and I find their testimony, given by people who have an obvious motive for revenge, less than credible.

and his remarks about pushing Israel into the ocean should be taken as a direct threat. He was given an opportunity to clarify his remarks in an interview, but weasel-worded his way around a direct answer:

Confusing matters further, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad pontificates rather than give a direct answer when questioned about the statement, such as in Lally Weymouth's Washington Post interview in September 2006:


Q: Are you really serious when you say that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

A: We need to look at the scene in the Middle East — 60 years of war, 60 years of displacement, 60 years of conflict, not even a day of peace. Look at the war in Lebanon, the war in Gaza — what are the reasons for these conditions? We need to address and resolve the root problem.

Q: Your suggestion is to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth?

A: Our suggestion is very clear:... Let the Palestinian people decide their fate in a free and fair referendum, and the result, whatever it is, should be accepted.... The people with no roots there are now ruling the land.

Q: You've been quoted as saying that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth. Is that your belief?

A: What I have said has made my position clear. If we look at a map of the Middle East from 70 years ago...


Q: So, the answer is yes, you do believe that it should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

A:Are you asking me yes or no? Is this a test? Do you respect the right to self-determination for the Palestinian nation? Yes or no? Is Palestine, as a nation, considered a nation with the right to live under humane conditions or not? Let's allow those rights to be enforced for these 5 million displaced people.

www.mohammadmossadegh.com...

Quite the contrary. I believe his answer was very direct. He was asked to clarify statements he allegedly made about Israel, and answered by legitimately asking the reporter if he felt that way about Palestine. In doing so he points out the xenophobic conceit and double standard of the West in its dealings with the Middle East. He's saying, "If you want to wipe out Palestine, you have no moral standing in questioning my motives toward Israel". That's a very intelligent and legitimate statement to make, regardless of who it comes from.

reply to post by The Nighthawk

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Oh, of course. Excuse me for not acknowledging that whatever Ahmadinejead says must be true and whatever news comes out of Tehran must be absolute gospel.

It is all America's fault, of course. And those horrible embassy spies. No other country would ever think of committing such crimes. /sarcasm

Originally posted by jsobecky
reply to post by The Nighthawk

---

Oh, of course. Excuse me for not acknowledging that whatever Ahmadinejead says must be true and whatever news comes out of Tehran must be absolute gospel.

Uh-oh, seems like there has been a little mistake in identifying who made those weapons/ammunition!

IRAQ: The Elusive Iranian Weapons

A plan to show some alleged Iranian-supplied explosives to journalists last week in Karbala and then destroy them was canceled after the United States realized none of them was from Iran. A U.S. military spokesman attributed the confusion to a misunderstanding that emerged after an Iraqi Army general in Karbala erroneously reported the items were of Iranian origin.

When U.S. explosives experts went to investigate, they discovered they were not Iranian after all.

Iran, meanwhile, continues to seethe after an Iraqi delegation went to Tehran last week to confront it with the accusations.

Big OOPPPS!

Sorry about that Iran!

It's that Iraqi guys fault though! (Nice job at shifting the blame!)

It's kinda looking like this whole incident was fabricated to try to get support to attack Iran!

[edit on 5/14/2008 by Keyhole]

reply to post by The Nighthawk

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Iran is the main pillar within The Axis of Evil supplying its proxies to kill our troops every day and some people say let them have nukes lol! Jeez Iran must never be allowed modern tech when its vile regime supports terror, threatens surrounding states with death and murders its own homosexuals. Bring it on John...................................

reply to post by ufoorbhunter

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Read your post and it started me thinking: I don't think Bush is going to attack Iran unless Iran makes a major misstep. I wonder how far Bush intended to go with Iran anyway. His term is winding down now, so he won't be taking any action.

Next round of players, though - what do you think? Will McCain go after Iran? Hillary has already said she'd kick their ass. Obama said he'd make them a cup of tea and chat.

reply to post by jsobecky

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You are absolutely correct about Iran supplying the insurgents with arms and training. There is mounting evidence to support that claim.

You are absolutely a sensationalist. You love to jump the gun on any issue don't you?

There is NO, I repeat, NO conclusive evidence Iran is arming Shiite sectarians in Iraq.
All the US Military rumors and allegations of state-sponsored terrorism are just that: Rumors.
They are basing this on what they think Iran would do in such a situation, not any compelling evidence they have found on the ground that the Quds Force, the Basji or any other Iranian backed military branches are smuggling weapons into Iraq.

Iraq's Government says they have yet to see any evidence:

"We don't have that kind of evidence... If there is hard evidence we will defend the country."

Yahoo News

British Intel have yet to see any evidence:

"I have not myself seen any evidence -- and I don't think any evidence exists -- of government-supported or instigated" armed support on Iran's part in Iraq, British Defense Secretary Des Browne said in an interview in Baghdad in late August.

Washington Post

The US has yet display any public evidence, first-hand knowledge, Intel or anything that could prove these allegations which they repeat like prayer. They got nothing on Iran and they know it:

The officials offered no evidence to substantiate allegations that the "highest levels" of the Iranian government had sanctioned support for attacks against U.S. troops. Also, the military briefers were not joined by U.S. diplomats or representatives of the CIA or the office of the Director of National Intelligence.

Although the administration has made many assertions about Iran's nuclear program, its role in Iraq and its ties to groups on the State Department's terrorism list, the U.S. government has never publicly offered evidence proving the allegations.

Washington Post

I have found a dozen other reputable, common media sources who all agree on the above consensus:

Daily Star
World News
Herald Tribune
GlobalPolicy.org
MSNBC

Face facts. Bush talks tough and aggressive but behind his Hawkish facade he knows he has little substance to the sabre-rattling he does all too often.
Until evidence surfaces, please stop spreading these outright lies. America cries wolf yet again.

Ahmadinejead was in the embassy siege, and his remarks about pushing Israel into the ocean should be taken as a direct threat.

WRONG yet again. No proof. None whatsoever. Zip. Nada. Zero.
How many ways do you want me to put this?
What is it about the words "no proof" that Republicans just cannot seem to compute? It's like some part of their brain immediately overrides any analysis or free thinking.

The CIA themselves admit with "relative certainty" he was a NOT a hostage taker in the 1979 Embassy Crisis:

Two weeks ago, a CIA analysis of a photograph of one of the hostage-takers determined that the man was not Ahmadinejad.

The State Department has been conducting interviews with some former hostages over the past week. Most of the former hostages have said Ahmadinejad was not present during the hostage-taking, two U.S. government officials said.

CNN

One of the top planners of the Embassy Siege himself has also stated Ahmadinejad was NOT present:

Abbas Abdi, one of the leaders of the takeover of the U.S. Embassy in 1979, said in a telephone interview from Tehran on Thursday that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was not involved.

USAToday

The man in the dubious photo which has circulated around has even been positively identified, and guess what, it's NOT Ahmadinejad:

International media have compared photos of Ahmadinejad, who won a presidential runoff election last week, with a black-and-white picture of one of the hostage-takers, a young man with a thin, bearded face and dark hair that sweeps across his forehead.

But Hajjarian identified the man in the photo as Taqi Mohammadi.

“This man is Taqi Mohammadi, a militant who later turned into a dissident and committed suicide in jail,” he said, pointing to the 1979 photo. Mohammadi was arrested on charges of involvement in the 1981 bombing in Tehran that killed the country’s president and prime minister

MSNBC

Please stop spreading this tripe around as you do every so often.
I see you repeating this claim on every Iran-related thread. You probably sing yourself to sleep with it at night.
Repeat it all you like, it won't come true.
Don't be so narrow-minded, I'm sure your intelligent enough to make the distinction when there is probable cause to believe something and when there's not. Your just afraid to.

Iran is training and supplying the insurgents in Iraq. They are also in bed with Syria adding to Lebanon's problems. Iran's figurehead president is Mahmoud Ahmadinejead, who was involved in the terrorist siege of the US Embassy in 1979. He was also a torturer and executioner, according to Iranian sources:

Watching coverage of Iran's presidential election on television dredged up 25-year-old memories that prompted four of the former hostages to exchange e-mails.

And those four realized they shared the same conclusion — the firm belief that President-elect Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had been one of their Iranian captors. Associates of Ahmadinejad deny any such link.

"This is the guy. There's no question about it," said former hostage Chuck Scott, a retired Army colonel who lives in Jonesboro, Ga. "You could make him a blond and shave his whiskers, put him in a zoot suit and I'd still spot him."

Scott and former hostages David Roeder, William J. Daugherty and Don A. Sharer told The Associated Press on Wednesday they have no doubt Ahmadinejad, 49, was one of the hostage-takers. A fifth ex-hostage, Kevin Hermening, said he reached the same conclusion after looking at photos.

www.militantislammonitor.org...

This is directly from 4 of the hostages. There are, however, apologists who refuse to believe reality and would rather suck down Iran's propaganda that he is innocent.

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