Bolton: Striking Iran 'Is Really The Most Prudent Thing To Do'»

Even if Iran IS providing aid to the insurgents in Iraq (and I have no doubt that they are) that does not mean we need to go to war with them! When we were supporting the Afghan rebels 25 years ago everyone knew it, but Russia did Not decide to bomb Washington DC to stop it.

Attacking Iran would be a huge huge mistake. They have three times the population of Iraq most of which are young and of fighting age, they have a mountain range, they have a LOT more money, and we don't have nearly the intelligence on Iran that we had on Iraq. If we could not whoop Iraq, Iran is out of the question!

Also they say if we did attack Iran they would take the fight to Iraq, and battle it out there. Talk about making a bad situation worse.

[edit on 7-5-2008 by Sonya610]

reply to post by mythatsabigprobe

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe

Originally posted by jsobecky

Uhh, it came directly from the Iraqi gov't.

Uhh, no it didn't.

Yes it did.

One of the PM's own people said it:

Iraq presents proof of Iranian meddling-official

BAGHDAD, May 2 (Reuters) - An Iraqi delegation in Iran has confronted Iranian security officials with evidence that Tehran is providing support for Shi'ite militias battling Iraqi government forces, an Iraqi official said on Friday.

"They presented a list of names, training camps and cells linked to Iran," Haidar al-Ibadi, a member of Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's Dawa party, told Reuters.

www.reuters.com...

Originally posted by jsobecky
People are still hung up on a false, twisted version of "Bush lied".

Amazing, that left-wing propaganda should survive for so long. Of course, facts don't matter to some.

Then where's the WMD? The world is waiting with baited breath for the Mighty Detective Jsobecky to conjure up all those weapons and show them to the world!!

Bush did lie. It's amazing to me you apologists keep on spouting the Talking Points of the Day as supplied by the Right-Wing Noise Machine. Reams of evidence make a pile to rival Everest and you ignore it, claiming it's all lies from "them damned Liberals". You need to get over this sickness that clouds your vision and impairs your judgment. I don't think you should be driving or operating heavy machinery in your condition.

So why bother giving you evidence that you will reject in advance because of your hate for this administration?

My contempt for this administration is well-deserved. If you want the full litany of lies and offenses committed by this gang of criminals I'm sure you can find a thousand sources in five seconds with a Google search.

And my statement is valid. Most Americans simply do not know one person of ME descent from another. Christ, one of the most popular TV shows, "Lost", has an Indian actor portraying an Iraqi, and people buy it out of ignorance. With this inability to discern who's who in the ME, yes, it would be very easy for a false-flag op to be set up in order to fool the People into believing Iranians are behind terrorism in Iraq.

Uhh, it came directly from the Iraqi gov't.

Debunked, and quite nicely, BTW. Good work, Mythatsabigprobe!

Because it's their job?

It's the Pentagon's job to make up fake stories and spread them as "fact" to the American people in order to fool us into accepting more wars for oil when we can't even afford the money and manpower being wasted on the current conflicts? That's funny, I thought the Pentagon's job was National Defense, as in, protecting us if we're invaded. he Pentagon should not have professional propagandists on the payroll, Period.

"By all accounts"? Which accounts? Those you make up in your mind?

I take it from this ridiculous show of your ignorance you are unaware of Ahmadinejad's landmark visit to Iraq in early March where he was greeted with open arms?

BAGHDAD - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was greeted with hugs and kisses on the first day of his historic visit to Iraq on Sunday, marking a dramatic break with the past for the two former foes and a new challenge to U.S. influence in Iraq.

Ahmadinejad's Iraq Visit--Chicago Tribune

That's just the Tribune. There are dozens of sources telling the same story.

Arms, from Russia and China, training from the Quds.

Uh-huh. And you know this how?

Iranian gang bangers?

More deliberate ignorance compounded with flippant insolence because you can't refute the point of my statement, which is that even if there are Iranians in Iraq, they do not necessarily have the backing of the Iranian government. This may shock you, but not all Iranians are even Muslim, and there are some other sects besides Shia in Iran (though they are a small minority). With this knowledge, might one reason that perhaps any Iranians in Iraq (whose presence has not been proven) might be from splinter groups and criminal/terrorist organizations not involved with the Iranian government or Ahmadinejad? Has it occurred to you that Al Qaeda is Iran's enemy as well as that of the US and Iraq?

Because not all of us are willing to kiss Ahmadinejead's arse and believe every word he says over our own gov't, that's why.

First off, nobody here is kissing Ahmadinejad anywhere. But, something I understand, and you apparently do not (or do and just don't care in your obstinacy) is that he is often mis-quoted, mis-translated and taken far out of context in what he says, and that this happens because as most Americans do not speak his language, we have to rely on secondary sources for translation. Those sources may or may not be trustworthy in their translation of his speeches, and what he says is easy for government sources to twist in their favor. People like you hear a soundbite that says "Israel must be wiped off the map" when what he actually said is very different, and you believe the soundbite because it provides quick and easy justification for your pre-concieved anti-Muslim bigotry.

Why don't you just come right out and admit it: You hate Muslims, you don't care how many sects there are or what the motivations of each sect are, you think they're all barbaric monsters and you want them all dead--and any excuse to make that happen is fine with you. You might as well spell it out, because it's painfully obvious to anyone reading your drivel.

[edit on 5/7/2008 by The Nighthawk]

reply to post by jsobecky


Uhh, no it didn't. (again)

Baghdad doubts U.S. weapons claims on Iran
UPI
Published: May 6, 2008 at 6:50 PM

BAGHDAD, May 6 (UPI) -- The Iraqi government disputes U.S. allegations that Iran is stoking the sectarian violence there with money, weapons and paramilitary training.

U.S. officials said they have uncovered materials from rockets fired at the fortified Green Zone in Baghdad that bear markings of Iranian weapons manufacturers but have yet to produce any concrete physical evidence, Time magazine reported.

Those allegations and lack of evidence prompted Iraqi government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh to tell reporters at a news conference Sunday Baghdad would handle the matter itself.

"We need our own government documentation of this interference, not from the Americans, not from the media," he said.

U.S. military spokesman Rear Adm. Patrick Driscoll said Baghdad needed to take appropriate action "based on their interpretation of the facts" regarding the U.S. allegations.

"If it turns out there is hard evidence," Dabbagh said, "the government will deal with it."

[edit on 5/7/2008 by mythatsabigprobe]

[edit on 5/7/2008 by mythatsabigprobe]

I prefer taking political (or love) advice from Michael Bolton before John.

The guy is psychotic (John).

*Edit:

Here's Jon Stewart ripping into a John Bolton (just a bit).

Bolton v Stewart

**Edit:

But besides his crazy politics, he seems pretty nice.



[edit on 7-5-2008 by Sublime620]

What ever happened to, Two wrongs don't make a right.

And

The end doesn't justify the means ??

What I see is, Leadership is reverting to Aggression just like centuries ago.

Never mind human rights, never mind consent of the governed.

We are back to Might is Right and Vengeance is mine.

Isn't this going BASS-ackwards in terms of human evolution?

reply to post by jsobecky


You have a lot of nerve saying what you do!

Consider yourself lucky that bad behavior is not allowed on ATS and people like you get a blank check to say any crap they want!

All I can say is it would be different if we met face to face.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by jsobecky

 

You have a lot of nerve saying what you do!

Consider yourself lucky that bad behavior is not allowed on ATS and people like you get a blank check to say any crap they want!

All I can say is it would be different if we met face to face.

Now, now, no need for that kind of talk. If someone wishes to remain ignorant of history, theology, sociology, etc. and how they apply to current issues, and wishes to be a bigot on top of that, well, they have every right to make fools of themselves.

reply to post by mythatsabigprobe

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
Uhh, no it didn't. (again)

You can deny the published report from Reuters all you want.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by jsobecky

 

You have a lot of nerve saying what you do!

Want to explain what I said that upset you so much? You see, I upset a lot of people here - like Nighthawk. Read his latest hissy fits to see what I mean.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Consider yourself lucky that bad behavior is not allowed on ATS and people like you get a blank check to say any crap they want!

Huh? Wha?

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
All I can say is it would be different if we met face to face.

That's not a threat, is it EarthCitizen07? You don't want to threaten me, do you, EarthCitizen07?

reply to post by jsobecky


See. You may not like my politics, but at least I don't come at you like that other guy.

reply to post by The Nighthawk

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
Now, now, no need for that kind of talk. If someone wishes to remain ignorant of history, theology, sociology, etc. and how they apply to current issues, and wishes to be a bigot on top of that, well, they have every right to make fools of themselves.

Nighthawk - I love it when you get your panties in a twist like you've done in you last two posts. Your anger is just your weird way of saying you admire me and want my attention, isn't it? Well, maybe I won't play your little game.

Said the masochist to the sadist: "Beat me!"

Said the sadist to the masochist: "No."

Originally posted by jsobecky
Want to explain what I said that upset you so much? You see, I upset a lot of people here - like Nighthawk.

Read his latest hissy fits to see what I mean.

See, folks, this is how the Neo-Cons operate. They marginalize those who lay out the FACTS and tell the TRUTH by using cute little catch-phrases like "hissy-fit" to describe a legitimate statement backed up by sources and facts. Anti-intellectual, anti-education, anti-truth, pandering to fear at every turn--this time the fear many have of being somehow less "manly" or lacking in strength if they don't play along with the Party Line.

Note that Jsobecky has absolutely Jack to say about the bulk of my post, and must resort to terms like "hissy-fit" because she can't refute real facts. She is a bigot and a liar.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Nighthawk - I love it when you get your panties in a twist like you've done in you last two posts. Your anger is just your weird way of saying you admire me and want my attention, isn't it? Well, maybe I won't play your little game.

Said the masochist to the sadist: "Beat me!"

Said the sadist to the masochist: "No."

And again, more proof of her complete lack of intellectual integrity. Instead of making an effort to refute facts in evidence she resorts to this. Now I admit I've had my fun at her expense; the difference is, I'm telling the truth, while she tries to deny it and deflect legitimate debate with flippancy.

I wonder if John Bolton has any relatives in the Military?

The Right Wing/nuts sure have no problem sacrificing other peoples loved ones in their continued Crusade against Muslims.

Everyone I know, even my conservative friends are very "war weary"
I'm astonished that this macho, strutting rhetoric is so prevalent.



[edit on 7-5-2008 by whaaa]

reply to post by The Nighthawk

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
Note that Jsobecky has absolutely Jack to say about the bulk of my post, and must resort to terms like "hissy-fit" because she can't refute real facts. She is a bigot and a liar.

I'm a guy, Nighthawk.

Go back and re-read your post. It's full of adolescent cliches like "Bush did lie", links to some of the most liberal newsrags like The Chicago Tribune, lame tactics like "People like you", all topped off by a personal attack:

People like you hear a soundbite that says "Israel must be wiped off the map" when what he actually said is very different, and you believe the soundbite because it provides quick and easy justification for your pre-concieved anti-Muslim bigotry.

Why don't you just come right out and admit it: You hate Muslims, you don't care how many sects there are or what the motivations of each sect are, you think they're all barbaric monsters and you want them all dead--and any excuse to make that happen is fine with you. You might as well spell it out, because it's painfully obvious to anyone reading your drivel.

And you wonder why I chose to ignore you? Go trolling elsewhere if you're looking for somehere to exchange personal insults with. You can't shine my shoes when it comes to debate.

Guys, get a room

The interpersonal sniping is not adding anything to the thread.

Stick to John Bolton & Iran, I know you both can do it

reply to post by whaaa

Originally posted by whaaa
I wonder if John Bolton has any relatives in the Military?

I'm sure you know that the overwhelming majority of our military volunteers are conservative.

Originally posted by whaaa
The Right Wing/nuts sure have no problem sacrificing other peoples loved ones in their continued Crusade against Muslims.

That statement is totally uncalled for, sir. They serve all Americans, even the left-wing nutjobs.

And your "Crusade against Muslims" is a false and racist statement.

Originally posted by whaaa
Everyone I know, even my conservative friends are very "war weary"
I'm astonished that this macho, strutting rhetoric is so prevalent.

Well, not all the men in this country wear skirts.

reply to post by jsobecky


You're not quite as good at covering your ass as you think, Becky dearest. Everyone can see that your Reuters article only reports the meeting between Iraq and Iran, and the only claim that the Iraqi's had first hand information came from.. that good old standby.. "a senior U.S. military official" and his ever present friend.. "The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity"

The question posed by Nighthawk was very clear:

Why is this info coming from Pentagon sources connected directly with right-wing institutions and the Bush Administration?

And the UPI article confirms that the information was indeed coming from Administration sources, and not "directly from the Iraqi gov't." as you falsely claimed.

Baghdad doubts U.S. weapons claims on Iran
UPI
Published: May 6, 2008 at 6:50 PM

BAGHDAD, May 6 (UPI) -- The Iraqi government disputes U.S. allegations that Iran is stoking the sectarian violence there with money, weapons and paramilitary training.

U.S. officials said they have uncovered materials from rockets fired at the fortified Green Zone in Baghdad that bear markings of Iranian weapons manufacturers but have yet to produce any concrete physical evidence, Time magazine reported.

Those allegations and lack of evidence prompted Iraqi government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh to tell reporters at a news conference Sunday Baghdad would handle the matter itself.

"We need our own government documentation of this interference, not from the Americans, not from the media," he said.

U.S. military spokesman Rear Adm. Patrick Driscoll said Baghdad needed to take appropriate action "based on their interpretation of the facts" regarding the U.S. allegations.

"If it turns out there is hard evidence," Dabbagh said, "the government will deal with it."

Oh look.. ^^ An official Iraqi government spokesman and an official US military spokesman... They have names... that can't be right can it?

And what's this? Another news report that names it's source? Surely they can't REALLY mean that the Director of Strategy, Plans and Policy for the Joint Chiefs of Staff said that the US gave the Iraqi's the information??!!

Pentagon Officials Say Iraq Must Decide How to Handle Iran
FoxNews
WASHINGTON — Iraqi leaders have been given the latest U.S. evidence of Iranian support for militias inside Iraq, and Baghdad will decide what to do about it, two senior Pentagon officials said Wednesday.

Marine Lt. Gen. John Sattler, director of strategy, plans and policy for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki possesses the evidence, which other officials said contradicts Tehran's stated commitment to stop providing arms, weapons technology and training to Shiite militias inside Iraq.

I just don't know what to think now Becky. Either the Iraqi government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh, Rear Admiral Patrick Driscoll and Marine Lt. General John Sattler are lying through their teeth, or you are.

Originally posted by jsobecky
I'm a guy, Nighthawk.

Actually, you're a troll.

Go back and re-read your post. It's full of adolescent cliches like "Bush did lie"

Bush's Lies

More Bush Lies

Even More Lies

Adolescent, eh? Care to actually try and dispute the documented lies of George W. Bush with referenced facts, instead of bull#?

links to some of the most liberal newsrags like The Chicago Tribune,

Actually one of the nation's more conservative papers:

In 2004, the Tribune endorsed President Bush for re-election, a decision consistent with its unwavering support for the Republican Party (it has not endorsed the Democratic Nominee for President since 1872, when it backed Horace Greeley, a former Republican Party newspaper editor[6]). It has endorsed Democrats for lesser offices, including recent endorsements of Bill Foster, Barack Obama for the Senate and Democrat Melissa Bean, who defeated Philip Crane, the House of Representatives' longest-serving Republican. The Tribune also reported on the scandals surrounding Illinois governor George Ryan (a Republican) during Ryan's previous term as Secretary of State. The Tribune endorsed Ryan for Governor despite this reporting.

The Tribune has remained economically conservative, being widely skeptical of increasing the minimum wage and entitlement spending. Although the Tribune has criticized the Bush administration's record on civil liberties, the environment, and many portions of its foreign policy, it still supports his presidency while taking Democrats, such as Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich, to task and calling for their removal from office.

Tribune Overview

Got some sources to back up your "Liberal Newsrag" comment?

lame tactics like "People like you"

Yeah, People like You, who cheerlead for an illegitimate, criminal administration despite a mountain of evidence that they're dragging his entire country, and You with it, down. People who would rather blame "liberals" for the problems we face instead of pointing the finger directly at your Exalted Leader who tells you right up-front he's the "Decider" while whining about them damn Congressional Democrats and calling the Constitution a "G-dDamned Piece of Paper". Yes. People like YOU.

all topped off by a personal attack

My personal attack is valid. You support another war of aggression against a sovereign country that has not attacked us and is in no position to do so. People lay out the evidence for you again and again that Iran is not the hard-line, raging Fundamentalist exapnsionist Islamic state you seem to think it is, they provide for you the evidence that Iran and Iraq are on a road to friendship and a strong alliance, and you refuse to even consider it because it disputes what you've been told by your Exalted Leader and his cronies about why we need more war.

There are only a few possibilities here as to why you're so obstinate in your refusal to consider basic facts:

1) You have something to lose, be it financial gains from war profiteering or a sense of your manliness.

2) You just can't stand to be wrong about something, so you ignore facts and spew your own attacks against "liberals" as if we're to blame for this mess.

3) You really do hate Islam and just want all them "towel heads" dead, and you don't really care what justification is given for it.

And you wonder why I chose to ignore you?

Ignore all you like. I'm not going away.

Go trolling elsewhere if you're looking for somehere to exchange personal insults with. You can't shine my shoes when it comes to debate.

Then lay out your f'n evidence, tough guy. NOW you want debate? I tried that. You came back with insults. I insulted back. You started this. I'm finishing it. You want to lay it on the table, be my guest.