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The ATS Issues Thread

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posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 01:54 PM
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reply to post by orange-light
 


The way I see it, the fighters ruined their own credit by abusing the point system in the silly Fight Club Pub thread. I have stated before that in my opinion the system with rewarding 250 points for one liners and smileys was DEEPLY UNFAIR to ordinary members who put a lot of thought and work in their posts without getting such a reward. I stand by that statement.

I also think that EVERY SINGLE MEMBER at ATS who enters a thread to present or discuss a subject, defend or dispute a theory, is a fighter. I don't see the need for this special title at all here in this discussion board. We are ALL fighters. None of us are more "special" or "valuable" than anyone else.




posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:04 PM
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reply to post by sebarud
 


The fighters debate. We take the time and make the committment to take our personal time and research topics, formulate intellectual and thought out responses, and hang through openings, closings, and rebuttals for days and sometimes weeks on end.

The writers participate in the collaborative writing forum.
The scholars participate in the FOIA activities on the site (I think).
The fighters debate.

No matter your opinion on the now gone FCP and people "abusing" points or whatever garbage that was, most of us with the Fighter title are proud of it, proud of what we do in the debate forum, and right now, are feeling rather abandoned and bruised by some on this site. It was never about the points, which some failed to realize and still seem to have a problem seeing. Our problem, yes, but still a problem. We feel cast aside and it bothers a lot of us.

No one is stopping anyone from attaining the "Fighter" title. All you have to do is step up, commit, and debate it out with another member. The debates add a lot to ATS, and some of the Fighters are disillusioned right about now.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:13 PM
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reply to post by sebarud
 


i disagree, but that is not what matters!
and the issue is not the FCP, the issue is the last thread we fighters could use to set up a debate.

you might be right that any member of ATS has the qualities of a fighter. which is good. but actually a fighter debates. we dedicate much time in researching subjects we are going to argue which are - contrary to the debate in any other ATS thread - most times not our own position but we defend this position as if it is our own!
you can compare it to the position of a good lawyer who argues for the sake of her client.

maybe you want to stand up and do a debate?



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by orange-light
the issue is the last thread we fighters could use to set up a debate.


Maybe it's me... but I'm unclear as to why a thread, forum, or other dedicated "thing" is needed for the purpose of organizing debates.

Prior to the "FCP" thread, we've had dozens of debates for over two years without such a "thing," and with the ease at which we can all find and talk to each other here on ATS... I'm a bit puzzled about the perceived need for a "fighters-only" thing.

Really... I'm not convinced it's needed... but it might just be me.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by orange-light
maybe you want to stand up and do a debate?


I am already doing a debate here and now, don't you think?

And I am not interested in participatnig in a staged debate, defending theories and points of views that are not my own. To be honest that seems totally pointless to me.

Edit to add this quote from Orange_light:
"we dedicate much time in researching subjects we are going to argue which are - contrary to the debate in any other ATS thread ."

I find this statement condescending and VERY; VERY ignorant. Do you really think that only "fighters" do reaserch before arguing their points in discussions? Have you ever READ any on the threads in ATS? Have you ever heard about members like Internos or ArMaP? Members like Phage?
Do you honestly think that these guys don't do RESEARCH before posting?


[edit on 22-4-2009 by sebarud]



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:32 PM
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reply to post by sebarud
 


This "you think you're better than me" shtick you got going is disingenuous, transparent, and really quite sad.

Amazing how you "magically" appear every time this issue comes up to reenforce your take and to seemingly bait the issue.

Perhaps you should take up a debate that way you can actually know what you're talking about.

As per o-l's point, the thread she is referring to was in B&BQ with no points allocated for posts.

So, you wanna debate?

Perhaps on the merits of puppeteering?

Just sayin' ...


reply to post by SkepticOverlord
 


Hi SO,

I haven't been here for that long but as I understand it the debate forum has grown exponentially over the last year. We had over 40 members wanting to enter this current tournament whereas in the past it was difficult to fill the spots. It seems to me that the FCP and the Public FCP had a lot to do with this growth.

As I have said before the FCP is gone now and that's fine, but right now there is simply is nowhere for members to get debate forum information, start new challenges, or discuss debates.

Listen, is it absolutely "needed", of course not, is the Space Opera companion thread "needed," perhaps not but it has made for an incredible collaboration in producing a literary work of art that we all have enjoyed.

Perhaps the debate forum moderators can explain this better than me, but there are logistical aspects to debating that would benefit from the existence of a thread.

Just my 2c.

[edit on 22 Apr 2009 by schrodingers dog]



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:42 PM
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reply to post by sebarud
 




Do you really think that only "fighters" do reaserch before arguing their points in discussions?


That isn't what was meant and you know it. I don't understand your problem with the Fighters and the debates, but if you did just one, you'd know the time, effort, patience, research, and intelligence it takes just to stick it out.....not to even mention the work that is put into them.

No one with a "Fighter" title considers themselves to be more or less than any other member, because we aren't.

But, that is neither here nor there.....you've made your problem with the concept clear.

As for a Debate Thread, it is easier to submit topics for potential debates, set up challenges, coordinate the logistics for tournaments, and keep track of everyone and every thing. It is all in one place, easy to find, easy to read, and easy for debate participants to keep track of (not to mention the debate Mods).

Basically, it is more conducive to keep things going in that particular forum if everything is in one thread than if everyone is trying to keep track of things via u2u or other means. Right now, there is nowhere to do that other than trying to find everyone and keep track of every thing within u2us. Something in BB&Q would work fine.....so that all debate info was easily accessed in one place.

JMO...

[edit on 4/22/2009 by skeptic1]



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:45 PM
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reply to post by SkepticOverlord
 


i am not refering to the FCP again and to refering to a fighter only thread!

i was just wondering why the debate information thread was closed after the fortfieting of a seasoned fighter.
and maybe you can explain to me how debates should be set up in future!

as far as i understand the the ats debate information thread the former public fight club pub - open to all people interested in debates.

reply to post by sebarud
 


i won.t argue further with you since i got the impression that you are not really interested in what i am saying!

if you quote my statments, than please quote them completly and not only the parts you like

my full statement was:



we dedicate much time in researching subjects we are going to argue which are - contrary to the debate in any other ATS thread - most times not our own position but we defend this position as if it is our own!
(bolding to emphasise missed part by me)

see i don.t want to insult and discredit any of ats valuable and dedicated members, who truely research, confirm and defend their positions.
but contrary to the structured and interactive debates of the debate forum it is always their position, as you are now defending your position and i am mine!

i guess you are able to see the difference! and you are allowed to call me ignorant! i don.t mind that!


and yeah i have read many threads in this forum and i know the guys you had mentioned.
and i truely believe that they do lot of valuable researches to defend their postion.

@all
thanks for listening.
i guess everything has been said.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:50 PM
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reply to post by orange-light
 


Just to clarify, I didn't call YOU ignorant. I called your STATEMENT ignorant. There is a difference, you know. I did not attack you personally.

Just wanted to mention it to keep the record straight.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 03:05 PM
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Originally posted by sebarud
The way I see it, the fighters ruined their own credit by abusing the point system in the silly Fight Club Pub thread.


And I believe, that most fighters who participated in the FCP would be willing to give up ALL points they received from posting in that thread. Posting in FCP for the points was not the motivation behind participating in that thread.



I have stated before that in my opinion the system with rewarding 250 points for one liners and smileys was DEEPLY UNFAIR to ordinary members who put a lot of thought and work in their posts without getting such a reward. I stand by that statement.


Yes, it was unfair in the FCP. So, perhaps the thread could have been moved (which is was) to a place where points were not of concern. I stand by the belief that we need a place to issue challenges. We need a place to discuss debates. It doesn't have to be fighters only - and in fact I think that would deter from the whole point of getting NEW fighters into the Debate Forum.


I also think that EVERY SINGLE MEMBER at ATS who enters a thread to present or discuss a subject, defend or dispute a theory, is a fighter. I don't see the need for this special title at all here in this discussion board. We are ALL fighters. None of us are more "special" or "valuable" than anyone else.


Yes. And we're all writers, and scholars too - are you suggesting that these titles are not necessary either?

- Carrot



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by CA_Orot

Yes. And we're all writers, and scholars too - are you suggesting that these titles are not necessary either?


It would not be a problem for me if those titles disappeared. They really makes no difference to me whatsoever. I read posts, not titles.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 03:40 PM
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[edit on 22-4-2009 by elevatedone]



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 03:44 PM
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Oops, my son logged in while I was away from the PC for a moment! So "revengefueler" was actually me trying to edit my own post for spelling, and I didn't realize that he was logged in to surfe the board! (Yes, I have made my son join the dark side too...
)




posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 03:52 PM
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Before this discussion turns into a referendum on ATS titles and the existence of forums in which only those "wearing" a title can post, I'd like to introduce the link to the thread that orange-light was discussing the closing of:

The Debate Forum Information Thread

As others have pointed out, this thread is in BB&Q, so no points are awarded for posting to it at all. It is made very clear in the OP that it is not a "lounge" or "chat" type thread, so that should not be an issue.

It was originally started under the name "Public Fight Club Forum" so that ATSers who had not yet gotten the Fighter title could issue challenges; with the recent events it seemed to be a natural place for established Fighters as well to issue challenges and for us all to stay informed on the logistics and progress of the ongoing tournament.

One participant in a tournament informing the others that he has to forfeit his position is not chitchat by most definitions. Nor is other fighters expressing their concern for his health. It is good sportsmanship, that's all.

Perhaps the issue was that both schrodingers dog and I expressed in our last posts to the thread that we were losing enthusiasm for the tournament. I understand the possible concern that this would elicit further expressions of discontent from other "Fighters". But in that case, perhaps a simple post in the thread saying that such thoughts would be considered off-topic would suffice.

As it stands now, there is no place for someone who wants to join the forum to make an open challenge to try to find an opponent. There is no place for an established fighter to try to find new opponents. There is no place for a new ATS'er to ask debate forum participants for advice or information about what undertaking a debate means.

That's the issue today, not the Fight Club Pub or points or titles. That a BB&Q thread which had been designated as the place where we could discuss logistics and challenges, was closed after two of us expressed concern for another's health.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 11:04 PM
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reply to post by SkepticOverlord
 


Really? Is this really going to stand and keep standing? How long exactly is the seemingly obvious anointed-hosiery going to keep being the sole representative of all non-debating Members in terms of having a public opinion about the FCP?

And how long exactly do we all have to keep up this charade?

Honestly, it is getting into the realms abusive here, and besides being incredibly disheartening it does not reflect well on anyone. Neither those of us who have to take it, or those of you who keep letting it get dished out.

TWISI



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 11:30 PM
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Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt
Neither those of us who have to take it, or those of you who keep letting it get dished out.

I have no idea what you're going on about.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 11:49 PM
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I just came up with a quick outline of an OP for a potential debate forum companion thread. This thread could be anywhere on ATS/BTS, provide no points for posting, and be open to everyone.


Thread title: Debate forum business and information

The purpose of this thread is to address:

- Debate forum announcements
- New "fighter" orientation and faq
- Rule clarification
- Tournament information
- Seeding information
- Challenge match declarations
- Debate strategies discussion
- General debate forum information and discussion

What this thread is not for:

- General chit chat
- Off topic discussion
- Role playing
- Socializing

This thread is under heavy staff scrutiny and any posts not adhering to the above guidelines will be removed. If the problem persists then the thread itself will be removed.


Of course this is in general terms, any moderator who would post such an OP would do it in a way which reflects the general staff consensus of what this thread should include or keep out.

Would something like this be possible?

[edit on 22 Apr 2009 by schrodingers dog]



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 05:25 AM
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Originally posted by orange-light
Before I became a fighter I heard lots of rumors about the credit fighters have had on ATS.
Seems as if ATS is no longer proud on the fine brains among its membership.


That is exactly the kind of statement that echoes the arrogance of the entire FCP clique.

I believe there are much finer brains to be found on the boards in "normal" threads/posts.

And what is wrong with a U2U to set up a debate?

Why all this ego-massaging and BS all the time?

[edit on 23/4/09 by blupblup]



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 06:25 AM
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Originally posted by blupblup
That is exactly the kind of statement that echoes the arrogance of the entire FCP clique.
[edit on 23/4/09 by blupblup]


I have followed the discussion around the "fighters" and the FCP club, and have kept my mouth shut until now. But I have to say - I agree with blupblup here. It really is very arrogant to portray the fighters as somehow being superior to other members. I just don't get that way of thinking.

I have gotten to know, respect and admire many "common" members here at ATS for their vast knowledge, their outstanding posts and the great work they do in order to enlighten more ignorant people like me. I am grateful for all the things I have learned from them since I joined ATS. The fighters should aknowledge the fact that they are certainly not the only people with "fine" brains here at ATS. To be honest, it doesn't seem like all of them understand that.

I also want to say that nothing of what I have written here is directed at any particular member. It is just my general impression and thoughts about this.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 07:03 AM
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Writers-Scholars-Fighters this is beginning to make some of you look rather bad.

You are supposed to be the cream of the crop but your beginning to sour.

I certainly enjoy all your efforts. You add much to our site.

As many of you have discussed, power corrupts. Please, don't let that be true here also.

Personally, I don't care how many titles you have under your name. Think of some more and add them too if it brightens your day or makes you feel better about yourself.

I've had fame in real life, and I'm still remembered by many. But fame sucks. You are expected to carry yourself above reproach and remain humble and appreciative even when verbally attacked.

The task isn't easy. You represent our site. Please, do not discredit us and fight among yourselves, the owners, and other members. It just looks really bad.

Can we not all agree to disagree and stop this ignorance?



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