LUCIFER - Biblical Mis-translation! Very interesting!

Originally posted by lilblam
Alright, but Satan didn't have the name Lucifer till the translators decided to give it to him apparently...

or perhaps there is a real transformation of Lucifer. First he was Lucifer (the highest in rank) and then he stood up against God and became Satan...?
Then it is just a separation of ranks, and Lucifer was at the same rank as Jesus... but not the same as Jesus. And Satan would be the name for Lucifer after he stood up against God... is that possible? (it is just a thought by the way).

Also, Jesus DID say about himself that he was the morning star. so that could be a rank?

Jesus was the bringer of Light, but Satan could only be bringer of Darkness...
Satan could be bringer of darkness after he stood up against God... before that he really could be bringer of light (he was the highest in rank of the angels).

However, if they are talking about a high king, they could very well praise him or something and attribute "morning star" to him... but this doesn't mean it is indeed Satan..

But interesting points

What's interesting is that since people fear what they don't know or understand, they apply "mysteriousness" where there is none, and take for granted what's actually a huge lie. Our world is such a weird little place isn't it? Belief, which is rooted in strong feel-good emotions and fear-emotion has humanity by the balls, and they are too terrified to peek behind the curtain, to see that the wizard of Oz isn't what they thought it was.

I can believe this. Lucifer was a man, not an angel. And there was no war in Heaven as th myth goes. That's just fairytale nonsense.

Actually, you are going the long way around in your quest to find the origin of satan. Any biblical encyclopedia will give you the history of satan and tell you how the story of Lucifer was made up by a man named Oregen. It is a documented historical fact and as you study it's origins, you will find that no, there really isn't satan.

Originally posted by lendog
Actually, you are going the long way around in your quest to find the origin of satan. Any biblical encyclopedia will give you the history of satan and tell you how the story of Lucifer was made up by a man named Oregen. It is a documented historical fact and as you study it's origins, you will find that no, there really isn't satan.

And you know what else? Since humans fell from eden, WE are the fallen ones. We FELL in the Bible, we ARE what Satan so allegorically represents! We are the "fallen angels" as we once were "different", but now we fell into ignorance and service to self (self-pleasing creatures). There is no mysterious magic beings involved, and the story of the "fall" of humanity is reflected in numerous religions WAY before Christianity was even born. This all goes much deeper and further than many people think...

I'm suprised nobody has mentioned that the Morning Star is Venus - the planet/goddess that represents love. Here's another link to explain the mistranslation.

www.lds-mormon.com...

As you can see, the original word Lucifer was actually Greek and not Latin.

Originally posted by lilblam


And you know what else? Since humans fell from eden, WE are the fallen ones. We FELL in the Bible, we ARE what Satan so allegorically represents! We are the "fallen angels" as we once were "different", but now we fell into ignorance and service to self (self-pleasing creatures). There is no mysterious magic beings involved, and the story of the "fall" of humanity is reflected in numerous religions WAY before Christianity was even born. This all goes much deeper and further than many people think...

There are two things that I have been sold on, till I can come across something that can swing me.

This is one of them. I can so see in transcribing changing it. The people praying to a god that is hearing, because he cast them aside. His son turned on him, becoming satan.

I seem to remember a similar thread a while ago. Its a fascinating topic.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Applause for lilblam!!! While often I read of the Christian misinterpretation of Hebrew texts, especially with regard to Satan, the topic is put concisely and defense of the thesis convincing. Apparently, there is much confusion in the theology, ranking Satan (confused with Lucifer) as virtually a godhead! To my knowledge, satan is mentioned only three times in the Hebrew scriptures and then only as "an adversary of God" (note the impersonal pronoun). In fact, the Christian characterization of the concept as an actual entity is misconstrued. As a result, Satan is deified by the church without reason. Perhaps it is convenient to have a single persona upon whom to attribute evil, i.e. a scapegoat. Additionally, such also represents a methodology by which to exonerate oneself, as in, "the devil made me do it."

where does all this elaborate myth of lucifer being the first and most beautiful angel, getting jealous and falling out with heaven, and then with the pentagrams and pitchforks and fiery pits.

The snake in genesis, satan talks with God in Job and in revalation also talks of satan.

It is not just that part that mentions satan.

Salaams all,

I would like to say that in the Quran, Satan is a Jinn:

"Behold! We said to the Angels, 'Bow down to Adam': they bowed down except Iblis. He was One of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord....[18:50]

And this:

It is We Who Created you and gave you shape; then We bade the Angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; he refused to be of those who bow down. (Allah) said: 'What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee? He said: 'I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay. (Allah) said: 'Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures). He said: 'Give me respite till the day they are raised up. (Allah) said: 'Be thou amongst those who have respite.' He said: 'Because thou hast thrown me out of the Way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy Straight Way: Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt Thou find, in most of them, gratitude (of Thy mercies).' (Allah) said: 'Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee - Hell will I fill with you all. [11:18]

Here are more facts:
www.answering-christianity.com...

Thanks

Salaam

Guerilla

When I took Philosophy in college my professor told us of a small group of people, back in the ancient days, who believed that Lucifer was in the right. But although religion "could" have been formed from the concept, there would be no way to generate money from it.

The basic theroy is this. What was wrong with Adam and Eve knowing the difference between good and evil? I mean really.....what is the big deal.....don't you appreciate knowing the difference between the two? It is the first basic thing we teach to children. Were Adam and Eve to remain less than children?

Lucifer believed in democracy. You are no better than I or visa versa. We are all equal. Not better than the others, which would've been God and the angel's, but just the same. So what ensued was pretty much the reversal of England/America. America fought for their "freedom" from oppression. God gave 1/3 of his host "freedom" due to his arrogance of the fact that he couldnt believe that others would not blindly follow his rule.

But when man decided to cultivate religion this part was squelched to make room for the money making machine that we now call Religion. And Lucifer was made into an angry demonic devil to fuel the machine and make it run more smoothly.

First of all lucifer is a light bringer but of false light, which is false knowledge. if your talking about the KJV version of the Lucifer translation than this is only one thing wrong with the KJV. The original version 1611 taught astrology and literally had pagan gods all through
its pages. Its literally the bible of satan if you ask me, and proof is in ts translations and contradictions which it contains 100s of,including leaving out " thou sall (not) commit adultury "





" satan wanted everybody equal "



really? Thats not true because im not equal to the one who made me. whats insane about this is that if satan hates God, then why does he hate us? Or why does he even hate his followers? If you don't think so than you should read up on Pope Leo xlll who had conversations with satan where satan told him
he would destroy humaity through the church.





equal?


Hes a piece of hateful nothig if you ask me. and hes oly out to destroy this world with filth and pride. Im sorrybut i love God and don;t want to be prideful, yet my free will choose this. I guess my free will don't count.





Look at us, we are typing on an electronical device and we have created machines that suck the life from us every single day, all because w envoked satans knowledge of technology. This same invoking will completely destroy us because of nuclear bombs.





Peace.

Good post bro, Id rather have truth than belief no matter how awful that truth may be.

Even christ continued to focus on truth,the great teachers focused on truth.

Example of truth: The earth rotates around the sun. Its a universal fact.

Example of Belief: The sun rotates around the earth. A theory that was disproved by facts long ago. Religious scholars and scientists faught it tooth and nail.

Originally posted by Ade1965x
When I took Philosophy in college my professor told us of a small group of people, back in the ancient days, who believed that Lucifer was in the right. But although religion "could" have been formed from the concept, there would be no way to generate money from it.

The basic theroy is this. What was wrong with Adam and Eve knowing the difference between good and evil? I mean really.....what is the big deal.....don't you appreciate knowing the difference between the two? It is the first basic thing we teach to children. Were Adam and Eve to remain less than children?

Lucifer believed in democracy. You are no better than I or visa versa. We are all equal. Not better than the others, which would've been God and the angel's, but just the same. So what ensued was pretty much the reversal of England/America. America fought for their "freedom" from oppression. God gave 1/3 of his host "freedom" due to his arrogance of the fact that he couldnt believe that others would not blindly follow his rule.

But when man decided to cultivate religion this part was squelched to make room for the money making machine that we now call Religion. And Lucifer was made into an angry demonic devil to fuel the machine and make it run more smoothly.

lol but THAT is the problem! There is no good and evil, it's a lie. It's RELATIVE and SUBJECTIVE, it's individual-based!! No exceptions...

Therefore, "Adam and Eve" (an allegory for humanity) decided to fall for lies and illusions, and now are ignorant, self-serving creatures. We were in a higher state before. That story is an allegory!

Someone showed up and "told" "Adam and Eve" what's good and what's evil... simply cuz they SAID SO. We fell for a lie, and well, here we are.

Originally posted by Truth


First of all lucifer is a light bringer but of false light, which is false knowledge. if your talking about the KJV version of the Lucifer translation than this is only one thing wrong with the KJV. The original version 1611 taught astrology and literally had pagan gods all through
its pages. Its literally the bible of satan if you ask me, and proof is in ts translations and contradictions which it contains 100s of,including leaving out " thou sall (not) commit adultury "

Hiya, Truth! First, what is False Knowledge? Is that another name for a LIE? Well, we can never fall for a lie unless we BELIEVE things. In order to avoid falling for ANTHING, one must not believe but try to FIND OUT if something is true or not, and if you can't, TOUGH. Keep trying! No excuse to just say "Well, if I believe it, it must be true". That's giving up on truth, and embracing ignorance and all that comes with it!

" satan wanted everybody equal "

really? Thats not true because im not equal to the one who made me. whats insane about this is that if satan hates God, then why does he hate us? Or why does he even hate his followers? If you don't think so than you should read up on Pope Leo xlll who had conversations with satan where satan told him
he would destroy humaity through the church.

What's equality anyway? Equal in what? What measurement are we using here? Equal in knowledge? Equal in power? Equal in stature? Equal in ability to eat huge amounts of ketchup? On what do you base this "equality" or "inequality"? Onedoesn't have to use measurement, but when you mean unequal, can you elaborate? Tell me exactly what's the DIFFERENCE between you and your creator. Are we not all energy, hence equal? All the same exact thing? Creator IS the created and vice versa! How could this be? Well that's one lesson you have to learn yourself, whenever you're ready. Probably not yet, but that's your choice to make. How could we EVER be separate from our creator? The concept makes no sense... since we're all ONE - all part of the same infinite complex of energy... the universal consciousness... how could there be anything OUTSIDE this universal consciousness... which is all that is... which is God... etc?

equal?

Hes a piece of hateful nothig if you ask me. and hes oly out to destroy this world with filth and pride. Im sorrybut i love God and don;t want to be prideful, yet my free will choose this. I guess my free will don't count.

No, it's not your free will. You were FORCED into the decision because you are TERRIFIED of what will happen to you if you do NOT choose this. You were threatened, blackmailed, and you complied due to fear for your "soul". You do not objectively know what happens, WHO created you, WHAT is God, you can only rely on your BELIEF (you pretend to know, and like to think that you know, but you realise that you really don't). Therefore, you BELIEVE it anyway. Belief is great like that: Even when you don't know something, you can pretend to do it using belief anyway!

So, you were forced into this "choice" because you are terrified that otherwise it's eternal damnation for you. You call THAT free will?

God: "Yes you can choose anything you want, but if you choose something that I don't COMMAND you to choose, you will burn forever".

Human: "uhh.. yeah I love ya man! Hugs all around."

Look at us, we are typing on an electronical device and we have created machines that suck the life from us every single day, all because we envoked satans knowledge of technology.

What??? Rewind... play back: "We envoked satans knowledge of technology."

How many times did you say this to yourself before you actually believed this? Computers are helping people all over the world communicate and understand each other, learn from each other, NETWORK and share knowledge and experiences... and have fun while doing it. If this is "Satan's knowledge of technology" then Satan has far more knowledge than your "God" ever will. Maybe you're confusing who is Satan and who is God? Seems to me that you are.

This same invoking will completely destroy us because of nuclear bombs.
Peace.

Nah, it's not the invoking of "satans knowledge of technology" that will destroy us. It's our own selfish, ego-based, SCARED, self-pleasing, power-hungry NATURE that will destroy us, not "Satan's knowledge of technology."

I think maybe "belief" sucked the "common sense" out of you. It's called "Satan's lie called BELIEF" that you fell for, and all religious people also fell for. Seems like the aliens have far more power over you and the rest of humanity than you would like to believe. What's great about being religious is you get to believe what you want, and truth is irrelavant. It's what the Bible says, what your "God" says in the BIBLE and through religious authorities that's true, and anything else must be from SATAN.

And you say you have free will? You cannot see just how controlled and manipulated you are, and you say you have free will?

I love the illusion humanity is in... it has NO freedom, we're all slaves... but we're convinced we're free. This is a work of a MASTER indeed, congrats "lizzies".

[Edited on 11-3-2004 by lilblam]

Originally posted by lilblam
...and LIGHT is knowledge.. it is TRUTH. So Jesus is bringer of knowledge.

Nice extrapolation indeed. I'm just going to inject a little logic.

Light is not knowledge. Knowledge is knowledge. Light is light. And truth is neither light nor knowledge. It is truth. And Jesus was a bringer of knowledge, but how, in logical sequence, you get from LIGHT being KNOWLEDGE, then KNOWLEDGE being TRUTH, and then ending with the obvious statement that Jesus was the bringer of knowledge, when we all know that christ means teacher...

There are to many undefined degrees of separation in that statement just to lead to a conclusion that requires no real study or insight.

Now you say there is no good evil. It is all relative to each of us. Have you ever said, "That's not fair?". If someone takes your seat or picks on a younger and smaller person we complain and protest. It is natural throughout all of humankind and I'm not saying that you won't have a few bad spots here and there. Is it our education that creates this morality? Is it from a higher power? Is it manifested by our human mind in some unique form of instinct? Where did morality stem from? Throughout the animal kingdom only ourselves show morality.

I have always just wondered about morality and the way is so strongly influences us. We are very unique creatures and sure you can say we were brainwashed into this state of morality. Can any of you honestly say that it's ok to kill off people who are deformed or people who hurt our gene pool? Why is it that when I serve others rather than myself I feel more fullfillment than when I'm basking in my materialism? Is that me being brainwashed by religious ideas?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when I see someone who claims to believe everything is relative and morality is subjunctive the next thing I see is him complaining about how fair something is. I have never met anyone who truly believes in relative truth and can live like they believe in relative truth. So I think we really need to look at morality and truth in a more logical sense than just outright saying there is no right and wrong because it's all relative and subjunctive. I've tried to live relatively and subjunctivly but it's something I fail at continually, especially when compassion for my own fellow human beings consumes me.

My points are:
1. We need to try and understand why it is so hard for us to live relatively and subjunctivly (don't ask me)
2. We can't come to hasty conclusions about morality.......like saying there is no good and evil.
3. We need to focus on the uniqueness of us as humans and why we are so morally focussed creatures.
4. We can't close our minds because many of us who profess to believe in relative truth fail to show our belief through our own lives.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

Originally posted by lilblam
...and LIGHT is knowledge.. it is TRUTH. So Jesus is bringer of knowledge.

Nice extrapolation indeed. I'm just going to inject a little logic.

Light is not knowledge. Knowledge is knowledge. Light is light. And truth is neither light nor knowledge. It is truth.

Why don't you shine some LIGHT on this situation. Does this not talk about KNOWLEDGE? "I'm kinda in the dark here" does this not speak of LACK of knowledge?

If one is to know TRUTH, one needs KNOWLEDGE. Knowledge is synonymous with TRUTH isn't it? LIES are not knowledge, they do not exist... they are illusory and false. Knowledge has substance, it is all substance. Knowledge is all that exists! How can it not be? What exists that cannot be known? What exists that is not part of KNOWLEDGE of SOMEONE who created it? Does something somewhere exists that is NOT known by someone else? Well, then all that exists must be knowledge!

And Jesus was a bringer of knowledge, but how, in logical sequence, you get from LIGHT being KNOWLEDGE, then KNOWLEDGE being TRUTH, and then ending with the obvious statement that Jesus was the bringer of knowledge, when we all know that christ means teacher...

Yes but christ is the title not the name. Christ isn't a well known Jewish last name ya know...

Teacher gives knowledge! (ideally)

There are to many undefined degrees of separation in that statement just to lead to a conclusion that requires no real study or insight.

Come on, "undefined degrees of separation"? Fine I'll define a few of those degrees of separation. Knowledge and Light are separated to the Nth degree, with N being equal to 0.

Originally posted by bugman5999
Now you say there is no good evil. It is all relative to each of us. Have you ever said, "That's not fair?". If someone takes your seat or picks on a younger and smaller person we complain and protest. It is natural throughout all of humankind and I'm not saying that you won't have a few bad spots here and there. Is it our education that creates this morality? Is it from a higher power? Is it manifested by our human mind in some unique form of instinct? Where did morality stem from? Throughout the animal kingdom only ourselves show morality.

"That's not fair?". Well, that's your ego talking. That'd be a self-serving creature who wants to inflict upon others anything that happens to HIM, and otherwise, receive all that which is received by others. Gotta stay fair!
That's not "right" or "wrong" to be "fair or unfair". Isn't that YOUR personal opinion that it's not fair? Someone else will till you "Sure it's fair". If this was objective, argument would be impossible, as it would objectively be true. Morality is taught by society! I mean, look at different cultures, all have their own morals, although a few are shared commonly like "killing is wrong". That's still not really objectively wrong, it's just shared more universally. Still a belief, however. It's not "wrong", it simply has certain effects and repercussions etc. What is WRONG anyway? It can't mean "incorrect" in this instance, as you can't say "killing is incorrect". Like saying "giving candy to a baby is FALSE". Well, stuff just IS, and it has causes/effects etc... but nothing is really wrong or right until judged from someone's individual perspective...

I have always just wondered about morality and the way is so strongly influences us. We are very unique creatures and sure you can say we were brainwashed into this state of morality. Can any of you honestly say that it's ok to kill off people who are deformed or people who hurt our gene pool?

Define OK? So to YOU it's not ok. Well this means that you simply don't WANT it to happen, as you feel pity for the dead. Ok, that may be. Ok, but that's your view. Hitler wanted to kill everyone who wasn't german, blue-eyed, and blond-haired... and he was CONVINCED it's the only right thing to do, in the eyes of God. It's so relative!

Why is it that when I serve others rather than myself I feel more fullfillment than when I'm basking in my materialism? Is that me being brainwashed by religious ideas?

No, you serve yourself! You only "serve" others to experience that fulfillment of knowing that you made someone happy! Think of this way, if serving another made you hurt inside, would you still do it? Seriously, if serving another made you UNHAPPY and in psychological and physical pain, would you continue to do this? Or do you ONLY SERVE OTHERS because it makes you happy inside? See, on a deeper level, it seems like a service to self action anyway.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when I see someone who claims to believe everything is relative and morality is subjunctive the next thing I see is him complaining about how fair something is.

Well then you can remind him that "fairness" is just as SUBJECTIVE as good/evil/right/wrong/morality... and tell'em if he wants to be consistent, he should understand that as well! You won't see me complaining about fairness! It seems like some people only say "this or that is subjective" when it SUITS THEM, and otherwise they themselves are subjective when it suits them. That's obviously deceptive, inconsistent, and a confused service-to-self way of operating. Maybe you could give THEM a service, and offer advice about your objective observations of their actions? Maybe it'll help..

I have never met anyone who truly believes in relative truth and can live like they believe in relative truth.

But belief is a whole other can of worms in itself. Belief is a conviction that something is TRUE when you really have NO IDEA. Who in their right mind would do that? Why pretend to know something anyway? Oh yes, because they are service to self, and it feels good believing "lovely" stories about how "special" they are, and how they are getting "saved" etc etc etc...

So I think we really need to look at morality and truth in a more logical sense than just outright saying there is no right and wrong because it's all relative and subjunctive.

It would not be logical to say there is an objective version of right and wrong. You would instantly be challenged by someone who disagrees, who has reasons to think that what you think is right, is actually wrong... and vice versa. But such is your choice, of course.

I've tried to live relatively and subjunctivly but it's something I fail at continually, especially when compassion for my own fellow human beings consumes me.

You misunderstood. I try to be OBJECTIVE in my life, and in all things, I simply point out subjectivity when I SEE it. To live subjectively is to live a LIE, to live in ILLUSION, in a PRETEND REALITY - enshrouded with religion and belief. Objectivity has no rooms for lies or half-truths. The point is not to try to be subjective, but simply to understand and know what IS subjective and what is NOT! That's not always so easy...
But I'd advise you to ALWAYS strive for OBJECTIVITY in all things!

My points are:
1. We need to try and understand why it is so hard for us to live relatively and subjunctivly (don't ask me)
2. We can't come to hasty conclusions about morality.......like saying there is no good and evil.
3. We need to focus on the uniqueness of us as humans and why we are so morally focussed creatures.
4. We can't close our minds because many of us who profess to believe in relative truth fail to show our belief through our own lives.

[Edited on 12-3-2004 by lilblam]

[Edited on 12-3-2004 by lilblam]