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A Why to Atheists & Darwinism

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posted on May, 7 2008 @ 10:41 AM
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reply to post by JPhish
 


No, there are literally mountains of evidence - mountains of fossils. So far not one single fossil has been unearthed that throws evolution into disarray. Not on solitary iota of evidence has been found that even casts the slightest shadow of a doubt over evolution. We've witnessed evolution in labs, we've seen speciation occur in nature due to man's impact on the environment. How god could create the specific mosquito that lives only in the London Underground before the London Underground existed is beyond me.

Compare that to any of the other "theories" (read: hypotheses), and they have exactly the opposite problem - a complete lack of evidence, just wishful thinking, and a desired outcome all ready to roll - they just can't quite join the dots between god and what we currently see, without having to invoke some untestable, unmeasurable, unscientific process that "magically" ties up the loose ends without any explanation other than something read from a bronze-age farmer's manual.




posted on May, 7 2008 @ 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by cruzion

Man you live in a fantasy world. Oh wait, you literally do!


Ok then use your scientific method and prove it now smart guy
prove what ya just said.

c'mon prove it. Prove I live in fantasy land, world, universe like I can prove you are living in doubt as I speak because what you know is what you THINK is true and what is true for you is that you are an atheist who thinks he knows science when you are no more a scientist than I am.

You are no smarter, no better off because of a lie called evolution which rides on the coat tails of the discoveries of what REAL Science comes up with but that can't come up with any of its own.

NOT ONCE.


What they try to teach is the scientific method. The same thing that helped bring about all the technology you use to post up the desperate affirmation of your fantasy-belief to the world.


is that so,, ok Mr Scientific method,,

Prove it.

Prove we have an ancestor that wasn't carrying the same human seed you do.

Prove it.

Prove that since 1857, we finally know who that is, what he, or shall I call it, "IT", even looks like.

SHOW me, what it is, where it is, how it got here, can you at least,
DO THAT?



Religion is blind obedience.


Is it?

You say I think the science community is too stupid to get their heads around evolution? No,, I said the Science community has their heads somewhere else is what I am saying. They have their heads south then make a sharp twelve oclock North and you'll be there too. Its the dark tunnel just behind the "cul de sac" pronounced "called a sack" and you can't miss it. btw watch out for the "exhaust fumes"

Ill tell you what BLIND obediance is.

It is every post you stand so cock sure of your belief in Science while your Science hasn't produced a single thing that can compete with my Religion and what it says about where you and I came from.

Your Science seems to think we got here by MAGIC!

Yeah that's right *poof* and life just "happened" from out of the blue from out of nowhere from out of pure nothing. Well I know nothing from nothing leaves nothing and I know what the bumper sticker says and I know that can get piled pretty high so I guess I better get a damn shovel because it's startin to stink to high heaven if you think Darwinian theory of evolution had a thing to do with my PC, my LCD monitor or anything else you got listed there.

If Darwinian theory was so into the scientific method, then by all means guy PROVE IT using the scientific method.

Prove how matter became matter from non matter

prove how life suddenly IS when and from where LIFE is NOT'

Show me ONE, JUST ONE absolute proof for macro-evolution as the post above mine from dave says but as I say Dave only says it, because unlike Martin Luther King who says he has been to the mountain top, Dave hasn't even seen the mountain much less show us a single fossil from it. Oh yeah like the clever wording he uses to substantiate evolution saying the fossil record doesn't disprove evolution,

it doesn't PROVE IT either.

and isn't that what this is all about?

So go ahead guy call me delusional and tell me I am living in a fantasy because that is ALL you can do when you don't have what I said you don't have and (no pun intended) you don't have the truth.

So spare me your ad-hom your self righteous indignation for you are sounding like religion and religion is not science.

show me, please share your very own insight and you will see you are as blind to an obediance as you say I am but at least I say I believe it by faith when you won't even allow yourselves to have any in a science so convoluted with deception it not only would take faith to believe it, it REQUIRES it.

Yeah lets see what Science calls facts, lets see what you call the scientific method which Ill prove is Scientist believing in things they cannot prove.



I believe, but I cannot prove, that all life, all intelligence, all creativity and all 'design' anywhere in the universe, is the direct or indirect product of Darwinian natural selection. -- RICHARD DAWKINS, Evolutionary Biologist



I don't believe in Magic guy,, but I DO believe in things I cannot prove and like the scientist who says he does also, I believe in miracles because I have seen what Science can't explain,, much less prove and,,

I believe in God

so what have

you got?

- Con













[edit on 7-5-2008 by Conspiriology]



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by dave420


No, there are literally mountains of evidence - mountains of fossils. So far not one single fossil has been unearthed that throws evolution into disarray. Not on solitary iota of evidence has been found that even casts the slightest shadow of a doubt over evolution. We've witnessed evolution in labs, we've seen speciation occur in nature due to man's impact on the environment. How god could create the specific mosquito that lives only in the London Underground before the London Underground existed is beyond me.


Macro evolution dave,, we aren't asking for a mountain dave and would be happy with something the size of a mustard seed but you can't even do that.



How god could create the specific mosquito that lives only in the London Underground before the London Underground existed is beyond me.



heh still using differen't "kinds" of versions of the same "kind" of thing to confuse people with no faith are ya dave.

Ill tell ya how you can understand it Dave but there is a difference in believing what you don't understand and understanding what you don't believe in. As the person in the quote is saying, nothing complicated about that


Mountain?? I see no mountain I only hear about it over and over by you but you never present us with what you claim is true. I have saved over 21 posts of you telling someone they "clearly" (ya like clear I take it) don't understand evolution", when clearly, we DO, just not ALL evolution.

Just the kind you call the mountain.

I hear people describe it as if they were Richard Dreyfus in close encounters of the third kind movie. They are just as obsessed with the mountain only in this case, they can't even make one out of thier mashed potatoes much less evidence to prove macro evolution and Darwinian Dogma.

Go ahead call my bluff

Ill be here

- Con


[edit on 7-5-2008 by Conspiriology]



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 02:27 AM
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Your Science seems to think we got here by MAGIC!



The Universe IS magic.
Science thinks we got here because of the big bang, then the conglomeration of matter in space that became the Earth. Then the creation of bacterium from ammino acids and heat. THAT is the probable start of evolution on our planet.

You also seem to think I'm an Atheist, for some wierd reason.
I'm not. I also have God.

I don't hate God, I hate religion.

[edit on 8-5-2008 by cruzion]



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 02:31 AM
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a bronze-age farmer's manual.


Man, that had me cracking up.
Well played.

"So far not one single fossil has been unearthed that throws evolution into disarray."

Absolutley right. Everytime a new fossil is discovered, it makes the theory stronger. Even when that fossil throws the current hypothesis into disarray, it always strengthens the theory, because the theories are based on the data found in the natural world. Theories always change to fit what is found, because science knows that all we have is interpretation of facts - science just tries to make it the most ACURATE interpretation of the facts. That is why it is constantly changing and being redefined.


[edit on 8-5-2008 by cruzion]



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 04:39 AM
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Originally posted by cruzion
Absolutley right. Everytime a new fossil is discovered, it makes the theory stronger. Even when that fossil throws the current hypothesis into disarray, it always strengthens the theory, because the theories are based on the data found in the natural world. Theories always change to fit what is found, because science knows that all we have is interpretation of facts - science just tries to make it the most ACURATE interpretation of the facts. That is why it is constantly changing and being redefined.


Man, that had me cracking up.
Well played.

"So far not one single fossil has been unearthed that throws evolution into disarray."

[edit on 8-5-2008 by cruzion]


HA HA HA You two are hysterical!

Umm is show going on the road soon? Daves Quasi Christian Atheist traveling evangelution Show.


"So far not one single fossil has been unearthed that throws evolution into disarray."


Oh yeah and not one fossil that has ever been unearthed has dis-proved God existence either. I mean after all their is an entire universe of evidence and as everyone knows Creationist Scientists have an average 50-70 points higher I.Q. Than their evolutionary counter parts.

Yeah Makes Perfect Sense! Thanks you guys, if that kind of thing works for Atheists, I guess it can for the Religion too! Wow and just when you thought you couldn't hate Religion any worse. HA HA H A

As Scientists all know, and as you seem to understand quite well yourself. Evolution couldn't have lasted 5 mins without that kind of flexibility to fit your data to your theory and bend the theory to fit the hypothesis.


Man, that had me cracking up.Well played.


That was NOTHING as funny as your "shticK" on Science protocols for inductive logical reasoning. No matter what we find,, we just call it EVOLUTION! ha ha ha

Good stuff lol

- Con

[edit on 8-5-2008 by Conspiriology]



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 11:03 AM
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reply to post by Conspiriology
 


You just don't get it.

EVOLUTION: Has lots of evidence supporting it. The theory adapts (evolves?
) over time in light of new evidence. So far not one piece of evidence has damaged the theory, only strengthening it.

CREATION: No evidence. None. Not one shred. Not one tiny, tiny little grain of sand in support of it. Nothing. Just the voices in some peoples' heads, and in aforementioned farmer's manual. That's it.

So, no, fossils don't disprove god. That's not our job. We already have an explanation for how life works. If you want your theory taken seriously, YOU have to give us evidence god exists and has done what you say he has. Otherwise your claims make as much sense as people saying the universe was sneezed out of the Great Green Arkleseizure.

reply to post by cruzion
 


Is your name Jez North, and have you ever been on a life-glug?



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 01:18 PM
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I just had a rather interesting thought about Creationists.

A sizeable number of far-right neo-nazis in the USA such as Aryan Nations, Tom Metzeger's WAR et al are avowed Christians and creationists.

As such they must not believe in heredity and genetics... so why do they object to misgenation?

If God created man as we stand, then genetic drift and change cannot occur according to them... because that would be evolution.

Thus why do they object to the intermarriage of different races?

Either they believe in heredity by genetics to justify an anti-misgenation stance... or they are creationists and believe that God creates each human being and genetics has no bearing.


Actually, I had this thought... and then realised that neo-nazis are not particularly inclined to logical reasoning.

Yeah, sorry... bit off topic.

[edit on 8-5-2008 by 44soulslayer]



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 01:42 PM
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reply to post by 44soulslayer
 


Your penultimate line was spot-on
Without wishing to sound inflammatory, the same can be said for any fundamentalist. They somehow are free to pick and choose what logic they follow, all the while keeping their "I believe in God!" card ready so they can wave it and get out of any discussion with their beliefs in-tact.



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by dave420


You just don't get it.


Oh really Dave? Tell me then, please share with me what it is I DON'T get.
Share with me your deep understanding of Science and Darwinain evolution so that I may understand why the hell you think a statement like "evidence has not damaged the theory" impressed you so when the same can be said for your FLYING SPAGHETTI monster?

Share with me Dave where you began to get Science Backwards and like the lawyer prosecuting a murder wouldn't sound ignorant saying,

"Well none of the evidence we have found says the defendant couldn't have done it either so it only strengthens our case he could have done it"



CREATION: No evidence. None. Not one shred. Not one tiny, tiny little grain of sand in support of it. Nothing. Just the voices in some peoples' heads, and in aforementioned farmer's manual. That's it.


Ha ha ha Hey Dave, if all it was is a grain of sand it is more than YOU GOT.


So, no, fossils don't disprove god.


You're right Dave NO Fossil dis prove God and ya know what else ALL prove he exists HA HA HA Thanks for the help Dave.


That's not our job. We already have an explanation for how life works.


No you don't Dave because if you did, you could live forever and if you did you wouldn't be trying to convince everyone using that assbackward logic you and astyyanax have been trying to put over our heads. you know? The " since what we know doesn't neccessarily explain what we don't know we know about how life works, it doesn't hurt our theory about what we know and only strengthens it

If I were you, I'd start looking for another angle Dave because that "stuff" is as UN SCIENTIFIC as it looks when you read it.


If you want your theory taken seriously, YOU have to give us evidence god exists and has done what you say he has.


I don't have a theory Dave so whether someone like you takes that seriously or not doesn't change what the FACTS are and the FACT is this. Charles Darwin came up with a silly idea to refute the Bible's explanation to how we got here and to this day, you are carrying around the same "Kind" of seed that humans carried when that bronze age book was written so it not only hasn't changed, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO.

Ya know why?

Because it's a FACT. That's why and I would predict with much better odds than any of you evolution science followers, that a million years from now, humans will still be humans carrying the seed of their own "kind"
what kind? the kind you got, I got, the kind that made you anotherwords Dave HUMAN kind and no other kind. It is that way now, was that way in the past and will be that way next week, next year, next century, next millenia. So don't tell me I don't get it Dave because what I a saying is true but for anyone to "get" evolution?

I feel like all you evolutionist keep telling the same joke and no one is laughing because the joke does't have a punch line. So you tell it again and again in a differen't way explaining that because you haven't found evidence of anyone laughing that didn't say it wasnt funny hasn't disproved the joke isn't funny.

What I got, is testable and observable TODAY in realtime.

You can call it a bronze age farmers book and all you are proving is those farmers got more than your scientists like Dawkins and they have withstood the most rigorous test of all,,

The test of time.

Dave, face it ATS evolutionist have been neutered by Christians who have finally taken all you atheists to task and proven, what you got,

ain't jack squat.

- Con





[edit on 8-5-2008 by Conspiriology]



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 03:59 PM
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reply to post by Conspiriology
 


Con why is it so important for you to force your views onto others?

I'm a scientist, but I can respect your freedom to think as you please. Have you not the common decency to do the same?

I find your bible's explanation inadequate, rife with errors and ultimately unbelievable. Im sure you probably view evolution in the same light.

In the end, it does not matter what we believe on this issue because I know that evolution will occur even if we do not acknowledge it. And you will presumably continue to believe that humans will remain as they are...

Ultimately, I find it of more value to society if we scientists and you evangelicals were to get along instead of arguing because I very much doubt either of us is particularly going to change our minds.

The only reason this debate should be of importance is when we discuss what should be taught to children in schools. In which case, the law of the separation of church and state is abundantly clear- religion has no place in public schools.

Thus I find this debate of little use since neither party is inclined to cede ground.

I bid you a good day sir.



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 04:22 PM
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Originally posted by 44soulslayer
I just had a rather interesting thought about Creationists.

A sizeable number of far-right neo-nazis in the USA such as Aryan Nations, Tom Metzeger's WAR et al are avowed Christians and creationists.



Mmmm Kinda stuff Jesus was teaching about huh? Yeah sounds real Christian to me all right yep suuure does. What Bible passage is it where Jesus was teaching about wearing those KKK robes and using swastikas in place of Cross? I forget I can't seem to find it anywhere.

That's right guy,, it isn't in there but The Bible does teach many will say they are Christians and by their fruits you will know them.

The only kind of fruit Nazis bring fourt is this

www.answersingenesis.org...



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by 44soulslayer
Con why is it so important for you to force your views onto others?


Please let me know how Con was 'forcing' his views onto others. I'd really love to know. You see, his comment started out not hammering home what he believes, but asking Super Dave to, for the love of God already, please explain to us what this 'mountain of evidence' Dave is always talking about but has never, not once, shown.


I'm a scientist, but I can respect your freedom to think as you please. Have you not the common decency to do the same?


Before I got stuck with my foot in my mouth, I made sure the comment you were replying to by Con was directed to you... but it was not. It was in reply to Super Dave. So, you may have the 'common decency' to 'respect the freedom to think as we please' but Dave does not as his regurgitated insults in every single thread he is involved in prove.

Con is refuting Dave's reply and asking him for the umpteenth time to please enlighten us already with what on earth he is talking about instead of constantly insulting our intelligence, insulting the Bible (oh, by the way... that 'bronze age book,' as Dave always puts it has something evolution does not... THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF STAYING POWER), and laughing at us out of house and home but never backing his insults with facts in spite of numerous requests to do so.


Ultimately, I find it of more value to society if we scientists and you evangelicals were to get along instead of arguing because I very much doubt either of us is particularly going to change our minds.


We can most definitely 'get along' but debating is always fun when it is handled with honesty, civility, and not avoiding the questions clearly addressed. Super Dave is not capable of any such thing, as he himself has proven since first joining ATS.



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 05:31 PM
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Originally posted by 44soulslayer


Con why is it so important for you to force your views onto others?


Hi there, I don't think we've met so Ill ask that you not interpret any of the tone in my rebuttal to super dave as "forcing". I believe Ashley has explained my own sentiments regarding why I might seem that way but I think it is generally not expected by many to see a Christian tell it like it is and that is exactly what I will do.

I don't seek the approval of those who would suggest some nicey nice Christian reputation to live up to and when mocked or made fun of, I only turn the other cheek ONCE.



I'm a scientist, but I can respect your freedom to think as you please. Have you not the common decency to do the same?


Whether you respect my freedom to think as I please, you are talking to a veteran of the military so I pretty much understand my freedoms and defended same. As for yours? I never threatened yours and as I said I have defended YOURS too.


I find your bible's explanation inadequate, rife with errors and ultimately unbelievable.


My "Bible" explanation? it might be inadequate because it wasn't addressing anything you asked was it? What part of the explanation is not true? Can you tell me ? Falsify it then



Im sure you probably view evolution in the same light.


No I don not view it in the same light I know much of evolution is a fact but not the bunk Darwin couldn't substantiate ie; macro-evo


In the end, it does not matter what we believe on this issue because I know that evolution will occur even if we do not acknowledge it.


Yeah I understand your meaning and have a similar one regarding the second coming of Christ will occur even if we don't acknowledge it.



Ultimately, I find it of more value to society if we scientists and you evangelicals were to get along instead of arguing because I very much doubt either of us is particularly going to change our minds.


Oh I feel exactly the same way In fact I hope and I pray that this would be this way someday but BE ADVISED: It isn't that Christians are unwilling to make the mend, and it isn't Scientists that reject us Christians from the mend, it is Atheists paranioa that whatever I mean no matter what we say about Science it must be Science disguised as relgion and that makes me so angry you have NO IDEA. I can no more suggest a creation aspect of Science wihtout it having religious implications if it is not true then I can prove God using the scientific method. So what is the big deal? I think I know what the big deal is but it is only a hunch and I don't like to speculate .



The only reason this debate should be of importance is when we discuss what should be taught to children in schools. In which case, the law of the separation of church and state is abundantly clear- religion has no place in public schools.


Well, see there ya go, than ya know what I say??

We get rid of people like you running public schools and show me what it says in the preamble of every state constitution in America just read one and tell me what it says about separation powers. Show me where the Government has any right to stifle my right to religious expression. This is the very reason YOU have accused ME of committing as I know The ACLU and Atheists are the ones who have made this so. I can garantee you, that separation crap is the same argument Atheist in the military are suing for when they couldn't have a meeting about Atheism. They are GOVERNMENT Property in the military so I guess I should expect this double standard a lot from Atheist huh.


Thus I find this debate of little use since neither party is inclined to cede ground.


Atheists want religion out of science when Religion let them in using freedom of speech and manufactured scopes trial evidence called piltdownman to get into our schools. Then they came up with this crock about Thomas Jefferson writing a wall to keep out Religion when he never said that. They tell us he wasn't a Christian, ha ha that's funny because I have a photograph of the actual letter and it sure says he was when I read it. ultramedia.freehostia.com...

We are working on that and many other diabolical things they did to oppress religious expression.

We will quit paying taxes on public schools choose pvt schools or home schooling but I don't think YOUR Science has proved to advance anything but Atheism and then we wonder why we have so many shootings in schools. Even Klebold was talking about how cool Natural Selection was as he shot his teachers and students. Then we wonder why 1 in 4 kids in schools have a STD.

Yeah Atheists have done a Bang up Job with the monolopy they have on Science in our Schools, especially instilling that awesome morailty and sexual evolution "stuff" jeeez.

Than you have the unmitigated audacity to suggest I am forcing my views?

I should BE so inconvenienced

- Con





[edit on 8-5-2008 by Conspiriology]



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 06:37 PM
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Im sorry, I may have misinterpreted your statements before.

I made the comments about the rabidity of creationist attacks upon evolutionism because it sure seems that you are trying to proselytise. If your aim is debate, I apologise and would gladly like to debate. However if your aim is to shout until others conform to your point of view, then I must leave because I have no interest in being "converted".

So can you answer me one thing:

Do you respect the right of others to believe as they see fit?



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 07:04 PM
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Reply to cruzion who says:

"OK. The fossil record, and stratigraphy. Over time, the eolian system, ....."

Just because different life forms are found in different stata, does not mean that the top one developed from the bottom one. It simply means that there are different forms in different strata. The scientists are even finding that some of those that they thought had evolved into another, did in fact co-exist.

If you think that there were pre-humans who walked hunched over and bent kneed, you have not studied the dynamics of physical locomotion. Try it yourself. Any bent over animals were quadropeds and not bipeds.
No species has ever changed into another. Forget the descent from the ape family. It didn't happen. Oh, but then all you evolutionists have Faith in your beliefs, because you have no evidence. A pile of bone of differently formed creatures is not evidence.

The ID'ers have you beat on the level of faith tho.

BTW, I am an atheist. Please don't ever equate atheism with evolutionists. If there was any evolution, it did not happen on Earth.
Go here and read the Essays:

No evolution

None of this nonsense should be taught in schools. When the question arises, the prudent thing to say is, "we don't know how humans or anything else came to be on Earth."

The argument of the fight with the dog, is totally silly wishful thinking.
Most dogs fight with the leap and slash technique. Kind of hard to get hold of him to do the choking. Those that would crunch and hang on would likely have your arm. Lots of luck choking him with the other. If he had your leg, you would not likely have sufficient leverage to do the choking.
You who support this idea have never even played with a good sized dog. They all have very powerful neck muscles. When they come in close and don't immediately leap away, they they shake their head so as to deliver multiple slashes. You would do well to just think of then as a person with a multi bladed knife, and reconsider your confidence.



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by 44soulslayer

Im sorry, I may have misinterpreted your statements before.

I made the comments about the rabidity of creationist attacks upon evolutionism because it sure seems that you are trying to proselytise. If your aim is debate, I apologise and would gladly like to debate.


First, Apologies accepted of course.

Secondly, I have made NO attempt to site any Bible Scipture save for the the bit about "kinds" which was done extemporaneuously. I have not tried to witness to anyone or tell anyone they need to be "saved" and lol it seems now I am damned if I do and Damned if I don't as I get a lot of u2u's asking why I am not leading you to Christ.

I just think thats unfair but I know that isn't your fault to please understand I am NOT trying to do that. I DO think however that your perception of where the rabidity is coming from has rather obvious bias as you only mention this where I am regarded and how you missed Dave's Ill just over look it as we all have our bias from time to time.



However if your aim is to shout until others conform to your point of view, then I must leave because I have no interest in being "converted".


As I have no interest being de-programmed or hearing about my invisible friend or the flying spaghetti monster.


So can you answer me one thing:

Do you respect the right of others to believe as they see fit?


I not ONLY respect your right to believe what you see fit, I respect your right to believe what you think I should believe.

You see it really doesn't matter what you think I should believe moreover,,

it doesn't matter, that,

it doesn't matter.

warm regards

- Con








[edit on 8-5-2008 by Conspiriology]



posted on May, 9 2008 @ 02:57 AM
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OK, you all won. I agree, all life and differing species of it sprung from nowhere. The geologic record is a mess, and most of the stuff in it is deliberately mis-interpreted anyway. Scientists are just as full of it as the religious. God is the answer to everything, and there's no point even trying to work out any other solution.
Glad we got that sorted.



posted on May, 9 2008 @ 07:58 AM
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reply to post by cruzion
 


Yup! That's it! I'm a bible-basher now! Praise Jeeeebus! I've seen the light!

Evolution never happened. What happened was one day, for some unknown reason, God decided to make the world. Through some unknown process, and again for unknown reasons, he created all the animals as we see. He also, probably just to be a jerk, put some fossils in the ground, so it looked like animals had evolved. He also, again for jerkiness, made DNA that tells us quite clearly that we're all related, when in fact we're not.

Damn this is easy once you get rid of the science! You can just claim something without having to back anything up! Why didn't I think of this sooner?

GOD DID IT! GOD DID EVERYTHING!



posted on May, 9 2008 @ 04:37 PM
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I would like one of you to explain just how a species in one strata became the species in the next strata.
Where are the inbetweeners?

If humans are so perfect why is it that they have 4000+ heritable defects?
Humans are the only creature on Earth that has schizophrenia.
Did god do this to us or did it evolve?



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