Shards of the Illuminati

reply to post by Amitel

Anyway you say that you are the guardians of three truths or secrets, I was wondering how you know that what you call truths are indeed actually truths. As you know the truth can be quite illusive and at times even an illusion.

The saying goes that "truth is subjective." I would certainly agree. There is no absolute way for us to be absolutely sure that they are indeed, truths. However, at some point in time one must make a decision off the information at hand; truth or not. So far what we have held as truth has remained as such to us. We have seen and received compelling evidence that they are indeed truths. It is very well possible that the very evidence which has helped validate our truths, is in actuality a fallacy. In any regard at some point a decision must be made. If one stands staring at the map, pondering it's truthfulness they will never get to their destination, much less ever learn if the map was true in the first place.

Also are all of your members active in your cause or do you have some members whose only mission if you will is to merely keep the knowledge that you have and to make sure that it is never lost. Sort of like a sleeper if you will that can be called upon if needed but whose man role is more of a passive one.

In a sense, yes. My father and my grandfather before him took this "passive" role you speak of, but not quite with the degree of formality of which you have suggested. People either maintain active or passive stances within any given Shard, it is entirely up to them. These states often change form one year to another, or day to another at any given time. Illuminons participate when they choose to, or watch when they chose to. We feel it best for them to participate either when they are inspired or passionate about a certain subject at hand, otherwise they may not set forth their highest efforts. Even Illuminons have time periods where rest and recuperation is needed. As for "preservation" of secrets we have no formal separation except for that of individual Shards acting as cells, interrelating cells as it were. The only other "preservatory" body would be that of our archives, which are highly guarded at an undisclosed location. Hope this was helpful.

- Maban

Originally posted by Maban
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

Illahee is alluding to the concept that this forum will be moved (forcibly) to that of the Skunkworks thread. Bear in mind that the Skunkworks thread is for:

As mentioned, this forum is for your most outlandish and extreme speculative conspiracy theory ideas.

He feels that he has sufficiently proven my illegitimacy to himself and others akin to him. As a result I expect action to be taken against me, the first of which is the moving of this thread form Secret Societies to pure Conspiracy Theory. It would then not be much of a leap for some to attempt to get me moved into the "creative writing" thread.

I understand and I am sure that it is frustrating, but a move to Skunk Works would not be the worst outcome, better that than delegation to BTS! Your 'claims' are somewhat outlandish, that doesn't mean they are not true, but it does mean that they are somewhat out of the ordinary. Skunk Works may permit a greater degree of scrutiny, you have been on ATS for some time and you should be aware that it is a tougher crowd than most, but we are polite with it. You should consider the possibility of a move as positive and as an opportunity to greet a wider audience.

Originally posted by Maban
KilgoreTrout, I understand your frustrating with words being exchanged behind the scenes, and not a single word wholly placed to your question. Therefore, I will provide you with what information I can via U2U; it is the least I can do.

Forget them, you and I can carry on regardless. I am interested as long as you are. I would rather conduct this within the thread, I don't want to hear any of your secrets and I am a big fan of transparency anyway, so anything that you say I would rather hear here. I do not mean to be awkward, I would just rather not further confuse matters (or myself). I propose we let Illahee and others do as they wish, and the rest of us can just mind our own business.

With that in mind, I was really hoping for a little more information on how the Icelandic Shard coped with the occupation in world war two. I realise that history is not your thing, but since it is fairly recent, in the scheme of things there must be stories and the such like that have been passed along.

All the best
KT

Maban,

although I haven't replied for a while I have been following the thread and my ears are still open to what you are saying.

Freemasonry is like a plague on this site and I for one don't care whether you continue on here or we discuss this on 'Joe Bloggs farout forum'. If this indeed does get moved then I think we can assume that freemasonry is much more influential on this site than is currently thought by the community (not that I personally have any doubts).

Although I haven't made my mind up completely about you, I think we are entitled to make up our own mind and of course those of us who do have our own mind will be able to do that on whatever forum they do move it to.

I somehow get the feeling that this thread and possibly this entire board will be swarming with "Illuminati" very shortly indeed, and I'm not sure whether to run away or sit here and watch.

Originally posted by cornixman
Freemasonry is like a plague on this site and I for one don't care whether you continue on here or we discuss this on 'Joe Bloggs farout forum'. If this indeed does get moved then I think we can assume that freemasonry is much more influential on this site than is currently thought by the community (not that I personally have any doubts).

I am not sure what you mean...what do the freemasons on this board have anything to do with this thread and its content? I can't recall exactly but I don't think any of them have responded to it either, certainly not in any great numbers. Are you implying that because they haven't replied they must be the ones telling Maban that he is taking the Illiminati name in vain? I would really appreciate it if you could explain the role of the freemasons in this, as I am obviously missing something here. Although that seems par for the course for me on this thread so far.

I agree though that the location of the thread, be it here or skunk works doesn't really matter.

Originally posted by Maban
attempt to get me moved into the "creative writing" thread

Where do I sign up? I'd definitely vote for that one.

Do we get to vote? Or is it just the Masons and the fake Illuminati ...er, Illuminons.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men

Originally posted by Maban
attempt to get me moved into the "creative writing" thread

Where do I sign up? I'd definitely vote for that one.

Do we get to vote? Or is it just the Masons and the fake Illuminati ...er, Illuminons.

Creative writing can still be based on facts as you know, but I don't think that board would be the best location for this thread either way, but then I think you are just being facetious.

Given your more defined knowledge of Knigge's origins in the Bavarian Illuminati, why are you so assured that Maban is being creative or indeed fake? I'd find it very helpful to know what Knigge's particular 'Weltschauung' was if you are inclined towards helping?

Pretty please

reply to post by KilgoreTrout

Here's my initial responses:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The last one was a specific question to whether Agoustous Knigge was even a real person. No response; let alone if he had gone to Iceland or not.

I can't find reference in the historical record to Illuminatus Adolph Franz Friedrich Ludwig Baron von Knigge having any kids let alone what their names were. So, until Agoustous Knigge is proved to have existed at all (and then, in turn, proved to have settled in Iceland) can we even take anything that this guy is saying seriously. I mean come on, it's pretty simple, isn't it? Your story has to conform with the very basics of reality; otherwise - yes - it's all just "creative writing." And a big waste of time if your going to pretend it's the truth.

[edit on 19-6-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


I've sent you a U2U so that we can continue the thread on topic.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

Here's my initial responses:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The last one was a specific question to whether Agoustous Knigge was even a real person. No response; let alone if he had gone to Iceland or not.

I had read those. Having spent some time attempting to trace my own families records though I have to admit that records of that period are not always as detailed as they can be. I don't think it would be fair therefore to assume that a lack of record as being definitive of the whole 'story' being a work of fiction. Although, I admit it is convenient. However apart from incomplete records, there are also other explanations, he could have adopted, or they could have been born out of wed lock. Either way we are dealing with a number of possible variables that will only detract from the more immediate issues.

The reason I asked what Knigge's world view was, was so i could ascertain a little better how compatible that that was with those proposed by Maban.

After a little dig, I found a very interesting book by Knigge, you have read it I am sure...

books.google.co.uk... book_result&resnum=7&ct=result

It is a long address, so the link may not work...but it is a book called the Practical Philosophy of Social Life. It appears to be the equivalent of a self-help/pop-psychology, aimed at helping those without advantages of birth to gain success. I have Knigge pegged as a socialist and I can therefore see why he would have broken with the elitist Weishaupt.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
So, until Agoustous Knigge is proved to have existed at all (and then, in turn, proved to have settled in Iceland) can we even take anything that this guy is saying seriously. I mean come on, it's pretty simple, isn't it? Your story has to conform with the very basics of reality; otherwise - yes - it's all just "creative writing." And a big waste of time if your going to pretend it's the truth.

There is another alternative though, Maban may believe he belongs to such a group, but he in fact belongs to a group with a borrowed history. The history may not be 'real' but the present actions and those of the recent past may be.

I have been following this thread also for a while. I have a question for maban. I live in Toronto, and started wondering. You mentioned earlier that there was a Canadian shard. I's like to know what you can tell me about thenm. The reason I ask is becuase I haev a friend who also lives here in Toronto ans e-mailed me a link to this site, its my first time here by the way. He mentoned that maban was worth listening to, could you tell me why he might have suggested you? Why he gave me this URL? Thanks for the answer, you ahve an intereting story and i's like to see how this all turns out.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout

don't think it would be fair therefore to assume that a lack of record as being definitive of the whole 'story' being a work of fiction. Although, I admit it is convenient.

I really am curious as to whether Agoustous existed. The onus to prove it is on the guy who claims that this person was indeed real.

Baron von Knigge's last name is translated, roughly, as: "well mannered" or "good manners." He inherited this meaning from the exact book that you linked to - a lesson on good etiquette and proper social interaction. Even during his life, he was respected as a "proper" gentleman. That he was named as a member of the Illuminati, did not detract from his esteem in the public's eye (he resigned, after all - out of integrity and a high moral standard). The obscurantists wouldn't shut up about his affiliations, sure; but the average person who had read his famous work still held him up in high regard.

With that said, when Maban haphazardly explained, "his family's name had become so renown, it was obviously necessary to cease using it in the public domain"; nothing could be further from the truth. Knigge is synonymous with "respect" and has always been - during and after the death of Illuminatus Baron von Knigge. If indeed Knigge had had a son, then said progeny would have been proud to have identified himself as a Knigge.

[edit on 19-6-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
With that said, when Maban haphazardly explained, "his family's name had become so renown, it was obviously necessary to cease using it in the public domain"; nothing could be further from the truth. Knigge is synonymous with "respect" and has always been - during and after the death of Illuminatus Baron von Knigge. If indeed Knigge had had a son, then said progeny would have been proud to have identified himself as a Knigge.

I noticed when I googled the name that it remains a prominent and it seems spread throughout europe and most of north america. There is even a Chuck Knigge, co-incidently he seems to be based on the west coast and is 26.

The preface of Knigge's book though did refer to the author's self-imposed exile and 'isolation' from the world. Do you know what his views on celebacy (I am sure I read somewhere that the Illuminati preached it, but Weishaupt for one wasn't very good in practice) were, was he married or even interested in women? Is it likely that he had progeny given his lifestyle?

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Do you know what his views on celebacy (I am sure I read somewhere that the Illuminati preached it, but Weishaupt for one wasn't very good in practice) were, was he married or even interested in women? Is it likely that he had progeny given his lifestyle?

Celebacy had nothing to do with the Bavarian Illuminati. If you remember where you read this, I'd be very interested to be informed - for a laugh at least.

As far as Knigge being married and having kids - I don't know. I mean, I'm sure he liked girls and all - lol - but I haven't come across information dealing specifically with his personal life.

Weishaupt, on the other hand, we know, was married twice and had many kids.

...Wait a sec. I just found a reference to Knigge having been married. (Source). It gives me hope that there's more.

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


Actually, information on his personal life was starring me right in the face. In René Le Forestier, Les Illuminés de Bavière et la Franc-Maçonnerie Allemande [Paris: 1914], Archè reprint, 2001, pp. 205-7, for instance, it is revealed that he married one Henriette von Baumbach in 1772/73; they had a daughter, Philippine, in 1774; and they moved from Hesse-Cassel to Hanau in 1777, with their family.

...More to come.

Knigge died without any male offspring! This according to the German wiki on Knigge: "1796 verstarb Knigge vierundvierzigjährig ohne männliche Nachkommen. Der Levester Familienzweig der Knigges wurde Lehnsnachfolger und übernahm die Burg, die heute als Gutshof im Besitz der Familie Knigge steht."

The German wiki pages on Illuminati members are generally meticulous and extremely well-sourced. This one is no exception.

It looks like this means no Agoustous. Sorry Maban.

Also, I cannot seem to find any more info on his kids besides that one daughter, anywhere. It may very well be that that was his only offspring. It increasing looks that way.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
As far as Knigge being married and having kids - I don't know. I mean, I'm sure he liked girls and all - lol - but I haven't come across information dealing specifically with his personal life.

I can't remember where I read about the celibacy, I'll have a think about it, I'm sure it was something in relation to his extra-marital activities - perhaps it is monogamy that he wasn't good at. I wasn't implying anything else, although you never know, there are the odd secret societies that have been inclined towards 'higher love', but that wouldn't rule out hetreosexuality and therefore issue. Anyway, I can't remember source or details, so not very helpful. Didn't you say Weishaupt was a Gnostic or studied gnosticism? Most have some level of celibacy or abstinence - perhaps I've filled in the details myself.

But there is a record of a daughter for Knigge. There could have been illegitimate children but as you say there is no good reason that they would not be known of, it wasn't hugely unusual at the time.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Knigge died without any male offspring! This according to the German wiki on Knigge: "1796 verstarb Knigge vierundvierzigjährig ohne männliche Nachkommen. Der Levester Familienzweig der Knigges wurde Lehnsnachfolger und übernahm die Burg, die heute als Gutshof im Besitz der Familie Knigge steht."

The German wiki pages on Illuminati members are generally meticulous and extremely well-sourced. This one is no exception.

It looks like this means no Agoustous. Sorry Maban.

Also, I cannot seem to find any more info on his kids besides that one daughter, anywhere. It may very well be that that was his only offspring. It increasing looks that way.

I agree, with perhaps the qualification that if there was an Agoustous, he was not the son of Baron von Knigge. Just someone pretending to be the son of Knigge. Or variations there of...

I don't suppose you have any details on what happened to von Knigge's daughter? I can't find anything.

Were there two sons mentioned? Wasn't there a son that was murdered by Karl Theodor as well? I'm sure I remember reading that somewhere along this thread, it made me think of Herod.

Even if his sons did go into hiding to escape Karl Theodor, there should be some record of their existing in the first place, I would have thought. I did note that Karl himself had six illegitimate children, all properly recorded, confirming that any extra-marital off-spring would most likely have been an open secret. I am also not sure that Karl Theodor comes across as a 'baby killer'. These events presumably would have been fairly late in his life??

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


An excerpt from the index of a recent biography on Knigge - Ingo Hermann, Knigge: Die Biographie, Propyläen: 2007.

Knigge, Ernst August 14, 299
Knigge, Ernst Franz Georg Adam 17
Knigge, Friedrich Ulrich 23
Knigge, Henriette, geb. von Baumbach, s. Henriette von Baumbach 64, 67, 69, 97, 120, 123, 188 f., 193, 195, 198, 259, 298
Knigge, Juliane Ernestine Charlotte 25
Knigge, Kurt 17
Knigge, Louise Wilhelmine 24, 30
Knigge, Philipp Carl 23-28, 30 f., 143
Knigge, Philippine 10, 53, 63 f., 77, 97, 120, 123, 141 f., 175, 187 f., 191-194, 203, 207 f., 210, 217, 278, 298
Knigge, Wilhelm 17

Knigge, Ernst August = author of Knigges Werke: Eine Bibliographie der gedruckten Schriften, Kompositionen (1996) - not sure of the exact relation, but that's the dude, and that's his book commemorating the 200th anniversary of Knigge's death.

Knigge, Ernst Franz Georg Adam = not sure (possibly this guy)
Knigge, Friedrich Ulrich = his great-grandfather
Knigge, Henriette = his wife
Knigge, Juliane Ernestine Charlotte = his aunt
Knigge, Kurt = not sure
Knigge, Louise Wilhelmine = his mother
Knigge, Philipp Carl = his father
Knigge, Philippine = his daughter (her descendants)
Knigge, Wilhelm = not sure

At any rate, there's no Agoustous.

Didn't you say Weishaupt was a Gnostic or studied gnosticism? Most have some level of celibacy or abstinence - perhaps I've filled in the details myself.

Gnostic proclivities apparent in his philosophy, especially in his final mysteries, the Doceten grade. But otherwise, ... you've filled in the blanks.

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


I found a reference to Phillipine von Knigge in a book called 'The Mind has No Sex?' on Google books. She evidently wrote a book herself called 'Versuch einer Logic fur Fraunenzimmer' (Logic for Ladies).

Doesn't seem the name did her career any harm? According to the reference she 'set down her father's lectures on logic for the benefit of other young women.' Doesn't hold too well with the name being dropped due to her father's infamy or because his ideas needed to be suppressed.

And definately no Agoustous then. All I get from Google is this thread, not definitive, but an indicator.

Perhaps Maban has been misled.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Perhaps Maban has been misled.

That would be extremely generous of you.

Next time I make up a story and allow it to continue for 12 pages (11450 views and 238 replies) while I privately laugh it up at the expense of the gullible, I'll be sure to have you stick up for me.