U.K. Prosecutors Will Not Pursue Himmler Forgeries, FT Reports

U.K. Prosecutors Will Not Pursue Himmler Forgeries, FT Reports

www.bloomberg.com
(visit the link for the full news article)


Related News Links:
www.ft.com
www.fpp.co.uk

I don't know anything about this Martin Allen, "a self-styled 'eminent historian' ", according to the FT article, titled Cover Story: Lies And Secrets. I highly recommend reading it. It tells the story with summaries and background. I only put Bloomberg as the link as it has the concerpt.

I do understand this Allen has connections to controversial historian David Irwing and possibly to the Holocast deniers in general.

The forgery gave itself away by being done on a laser printer.

The main question this story rises, is this a forgery done by Allen (the only recorded access to the documents is him and his wife) or MI5 or 6? The first possibility does seem remote, as Allen in no way is IT minded, he doesn't even have an email account.

The question that remains, were the original documents, that laid the foundation for Allen's book "Himmler's Secret War" 'proving' the alleged suicide of Himmler was an assasination ordered by Churchill? Were these documents replaced by forgeries to discredit Allen and keep History from being rewritten?

I'm certainly not for the Holocast deniers or anyone trying to rewrite the general history of the epoch, but this story do smell fishy and eventually raises the question how much we can believe the history of the conquerors.

www.bloomberg.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

This is a true conspiracy story, about the National Archives of England and Wales, by its regular users, by definition, somewhat attached to the past, still called the PRO, short for the Public Record Office, the name the institution held for 167 years. It is the holder of the records of British History, the very foundation on which the common written version to be passed on is based. That 29 forged documents have been found within its walls is a serious blow to the credibility, not just to the institution, but to Britannia itself.

The conspiracy in short: Martin Allen, a controversial historian known for a serie of books critical to the established history of WW2, has been found to have used forged document as base for at least three of his books.

Now, I don't know anything about this Martin Allen, searching google gives a football player of the same name all the hits, so if anybody knows about him and have relevant informations, please post.

There has been a three-year long police investigation into the forgeries, and the outcome, NOT TO PRESS CHARGES, suggest major conspiracy. The official explanation, that Mr Allen is too sick to stand trial only supports that and leaves him discredited and assures his work never to be taken into account.

The question of course is who did this forgery. If Allen did, he must have had highly technical capable accomplices of which investigations show no signs. Mr Allen himself suggest this:




Presuming the forgery was done by government agencies, one will suspect to have Himmler murdered would have been to prevent him from talking about sensible issues concerning the pre-war Anglo-German connections (enough hints there, just take the Duke of Windsor).

This bit would seemingly go against such an allegation:



...unless the powers, whom ever they be, have been able to replace documents in the care of Allen without leaving a trace.

I do think that is possible.

This is a very interesting case (for me) and one that I attempted to address in this thread



I have read this book and a previous one, The Hitler/Hess Deception. What Allen may lack in academic title, he certainly makes up for in attention to detail and meticulous sourcing. This is why I am in no doubt whatsoever that he was set up by person or persons unknown. As far as I know he has no attachment to Irving, he may do, but it is not obvious. They do have the fact though in common that the British establishment has attempted to ruin both their reputations.

The fact that the PRO have recieved no support from the historical and publishing professions in having Allen or his work disparaged or withdrawn is testament enough. We are waking up to the attempts that have been made for the last half a century to keep the truths of WW2 a secret from us, the British people. It is our grandfathers and fathers who died in the war but we are still not permitted to discuss or know the way in which the intelligence service engaged in that war. Enough is enough in my book, but 'national security' prevails.

'The Secret War' by Allen examines in some detail the relationship that developed between the SS and the intelligence communities and the peace neoitiations that surrounded that. The documents in question, related to a series of communications that indicate that Himmler was seen as a problem that needed 'to be fixed' and a communication after Himmler's death that indicates that that problem has been 'fixed'.

I do not believe that the documents are fakes, i believe the documents have been replaced by fakes. I believe that it is a hard pressed attempt to discredit Martin Allen and I feel nothing but sympathy for him. Allen is not a controversial historian and there is nothing controversial about his work, unlike Irving, I have not known him to say anything 'contraversial ' either. He is passionate about this topic but not emotionally attached. His work is pretty-much 'boys own' stuff and does not deal with the holocaust at all. It is all about spying for want of a better term. And this is where the real secrets are, not in the numbers but in the codes and cyphers. These secrets are still considered too volatile to release. It takes quite a flight of imagination to picture what could be worth locking up for 100 hundred years



edit to fix link

[edit on 4/5/2008 by khunmoon]

Thank you for your informations, Kilgore. Makes me feel a little better to know that Allen is not associated with the Holocast deniers, because my gut feeling tells me he was set up and he might be right in his assertions.

I'm a child of WW2 and I was brought up on the official version how we all from day one fought and despised the nazies and all of their ideology. That it wasn't so I found out when I got old enough to seek out my own sources and form my own opinion. Most of all it was about the role of the establishment of my own country (DK) it wasn't quite so heroic as they tought us in school.

That Anglo-German connections and a strong favour for nazies did exist in the British elite I've been aware since my old English teacher told us about the Duke of Windsor and his abdiciation of the throne (very convinient with Wallis Simpson ..but).

The American connections to the third reich I have mostly learned about here on ATS.

Your thread linked gives an insight to that, and you seems to have quite a knowledge on the subject matter. You mention the Swedes a couple of times, and I would like to ask you what you know about the nazies connection to Sweden in general. I know about Goring being married to a Swedish baroness and his morphine adiction brought him psychriatic custody their.

Besides that Swedes was well respected in war-time Berlin, and represented in the arts of cinema and theater (Sarah Leander) as some Danes also were (Asta Nielsen).

The Scandinavian connections to the nazies are manyfold, not just in the elite and arts, but also in the scientific world. Much of Hitlers views on race superiority was based on Danish research from the 20's/30's ..and that was racial leading to mass strerializations and lobtomony as standard procedures.

Well, off-topic maybe, but the epoch in general has my interest.

reply to post by khunmoon

---

Very interesting, khunmoon. I believe in the 'gut' feeling, so definitely go
ahead, and follow yours; they're often correct.

Any government involved with foul play, is most certain to destroy or
alter evidence proving so. And discredit the finder/discoverer, or even
bring foul play to them!

To NOT continue investigating is probably the quickest way for them to
make it go away, if they wish to avoid the truth coming out, and shed more
light on an unpopular topic, and draw attention to the possibility of
malfeasence on their part.

In my view, your unsuccessful attempt to retrieve any other info from a
Google search, tells MY gut that maybe the conspiracy reaches so deep,
that they had it removed, so no-one can find it!

"Too old & ill to prosecute" sounds like a good diversion from the actual
topic, to make people think about THAT; instead of the facts of the case.

Reminds me of the movie 'Casino', when the old mobsters are
shown in court, elderly & infirmed, sitting in wheelchairs, with oxygen
masks, and IV's, and nurses, trying to elude trial with same excuse!!!

what if he stole the originals and photocopied them and then placed the printed pages in the files..thats why they dont want to bring him to court

He is a brilliant researcher and writer. Trust your gut feeling on this one. The point is he has made a number of deductions based on the available evidence and those conclusions are not ones that the British establishment want to be addressed, they have attempted to keep these secrets not only from us the people, but also from the governments of Russia, France and the US (to name the top three impacted). The reaction of the British is to muddy the waters and place Allen, who is a historical revisionist, with the holocaust revisionist movement. This could not be further from the truth. They did the same to David Irving. Irving may have some questionable personal opinions, but his histories of WW2 are very insightful.

Allen raised some very important information in The Hitler/Hess Deception, which included the conclusion that British SIS had murdered Professor Karl Haushofer. This has not been contradicted or confirmed - nor is it likely to be. British SIS cannot afford to go there!! Himmler of course is another thing entirely, at the very least he was the architect of the holocaust, but the British were in negotiations with him, from seperate sources I have found 'insinuations' that Churchill considered allowing Himmler to live (ie that he would be spared trial). In retrospect, this seems heinous, at the time though Himmler held considerable cards to negotiate with. By 'planting' these 'fake' documents British SIS have simply taken the sting out of Allen's tail, his books though brilliant, are relatively unknown, his conclusions unpublicised. I believe that all the information was correct and that it was an oversight that they had been released, the SIS had to back track, so they exchanged the documents. Kew is tight, there is no other possible explanation. The press may paint it as though the courts are letting off Allen, but the reality is that the PRO are reluctant or unable to investigate Allen's allegation of foul-play.



The British were deeply divided between pro-nazis and anti-nazis, just as they were in the US. The Duke of Windsor is a bit of a false flag IMO, he was powerless, ineffectual and only driven by protecting the lifestyle to which he was accustomed. In the business and banking community many were swayed towards Nazism, for a myriad of reasons, some out of fear of communism (and their loss of power/money), some due to shared extremism (elitism) and others through family and friendship.

The Royal family invested in the Nazis via Enskilda Bank (Wallenbergs) and via the Bank of International Settlements. The Duke of Edinburgh the future consort of the our current Queen, was himself related to the Hesse line and the Mountbattens. At least one Mountbatten is known to have joined the SS under Himmler. Philip of course served in the Royal Navy, but there was definately some sense of divided loyalty.



There seems to be some move to throw Bush the wolves on this one, but he was by no means alone, many US operators profited from their investments in pre-war Germany. It should also be noted that as a neutral, up until December 1941, there was nothing to prevent them from doing so. Additionally many in the US had family ties in Germany. I don't know if you have read E M Forsters 'The Buccaneers' (fiction), but it provides some important insights. The impoverished aristocracy of Europe basically married into the new wealth of the new world. Whole bands of young women were sent to Europe at the turn of the 20th century to finish their education, ie find a good husband, this continued up until the inter-war period. This resulted in an incredible division of loyalty, and you can only simpathise with Issac Singer whose 3 daughters married into English, french and German minor nobility.



I didn't know that Goering was treated in Sweden, that is interesting. Goering was far more influential than Hitler in the early stages of the Nazi regime and it was he who generated much of the outside investment, until through his own failings he was usurped by Himmler.

The Swedes were very important to the Nazi war machine, and to the maintenance of the lines of communication to 'friendly' Britains. The British Ambassador to Sweden when he reported the heavy presence of the Nazi heirarchy in Sweden to his commanders in Britain, he was told in no uncertain terms to butt out!!

I go into the role of the Swedes a little in this thread

www.abovetopsecret.com...

They were essential though, as was Switzerland, in keeping the flow of finance to the Germans moving and for imports. It was a mutually beneficial situation, Germany was accounted for 60% of all Swedish exports (Switzerland relied on Germany for 70% of its custom). Without both of these so-called 'neutrals' Germany would have ground to a halt, especially once the invasion of Russia occured and those supply lines were cut.

I do not know a vast amount, just bits and pieces that I have collected. If you have any specific questions I can do my best to find the answers for you, sometimes it is not so much what you know, just knowing where to start looking.



This is where my interest lies too and I am always more than happy to help if I can. As you mention the Swedes, though held up as progressive, continued to sterilse their citizens up to the mid 1970s and no-one batted an eye lid. Many of the nefarious acts commited by the Nazis were supported and endorsed financially through out the western world, though this in no way exonerates the Nazis, it should serve as a lesson. All our leaders are the same, and we the people have always been the fodder to feed their cannons. They care nothing for us, beyond our use in their wars and from our labour. This is why they hide their duplicity and multiplicity, just in case we realise their crimes and convictions.

I have noted that Sweden has been even more successful than any other country in concealing its sympathies, and it was a pretty serious offender in my opinion. Trade is one thing, but the laundering of money gained through mass murder and slave labour, and the theft of that that belonged to others is a different kettle of fish altogether in my book.

Again thanks for your very knowledgeable contribution.

About Goering, I heard about his connections to and treatment in Sweden in a radio-montage some 30+ years ago. There's a bit about it in the Wiki entry on him. According to that he was hired as a commercial pilot in 1920 for the newly established air route Malmo/Copenhagen/Warnemunde, doing charter taxi flights as well. It was after such a flight where he stayed overnight at a Swedish castle to which he had flown a costumer, Count Eric von Rosen, that he met his future wife, Karin von Kantzow. The entry also has the (anecdotal?) story about how he possibly for the first time saw the swastika there in the coat of arms of the family. That's another one of my favorite horses, where did the nazis get the swastika from, and why did they reverse it from a good luck sign (the direction of the sun), to it's opposite (bad luck, black magic)? Several explanations from by accident to design or for reasons occult. That for another thread.

How he got hired as a pilot for a Swedish airline I'm not sure, but if my memory serves me well (not always) from that radio montage there initialy was a noblesse connection to Sweden, and though I can't find much on Svenska Lufttrafik, the airline that hired him in 1920, it seems like the Wallenbergs have been pioneers in Swedish airline building. Thus the predecessor for SAS, Svensk Interkontinental Lufttrafik was set up by the them. It is a fact that from 1923-27 Goering lived in exile in Sweden, and it was during that time he developed his morphine addiction. After the "Munich Bier Putch" he was badly hurt and had to flee Germany.



Yes, and some of the nefarious acts were common practice in Scandinavian countries in the 30s, like the sterialisation you mention. Sweden, Denmark and Norway was in most way parallel in such practises, and at least for Norway they carried out lobotomy up until the early 80s. I'm sure they did in Sweden and Denmark too, though I haven't found anything specific. But heraditary control was an important part in building the Social-democratic society, not to make it 'clean' but to make it 'good'. Like tending a garden, you had to weed out the trash. And they did almost at an industrialized scale.

That leads me to Hitler's admiration for Scandinavian practises, and the 'scientific teachings' that had his attention I refered to in my previous post was probably those of Wilhelm Johannsen who did pioneer work in genetic research and in fact was the one to coin the word 'gene'. His two major works are (my translation from Danish):
"About Heredity in Society and in Pure Lines" and "Elements of the Science of Heredity." The later was to be translated into German and become a hit there under the title "Elemente der exakten Erblichkeitslehre." A revered study in nazi circles and central to their race ideology. Then of course there is the whole Mythology from runes to legends they 'borrowed' too.

Sure Denmark and Sweden was in many ways a help for the pre-war nazis in establishing both ideology and practises. A thing you might not know: When Hitlers racial laws prevented Jews from free travels, Danish and Swedish authorities was asked to turn them back at the borders. And they did. Someone, Danish or Swedish, I'm not sure who, even came up with the idea to stamp Jewish passports with a huge page-sized "J" for easy identification.

We were in any sense of the word cooperating with the Germans. When Denmark got occupied we kept our selfrule and named it "government of cooperation." We kept it until 29th of August 1944, when one of two major incidents occured that saved the reputation of Denmark. Both of them were initiated by the people. The first one was the safe passage of the relative small Jewish population to Sweden in 1943 in small fishing vessels. Denmark was the only country where the entire community of Jews, let alone a handfull, was saved from the Germans. The other event of August 44 I refered to, was a popular and spontanious uprise in major cities caused by the sabotage of a German vessel that had been maintained on a Danish yard. That caused the Germans to disolved any self governing. Politicians (some) were arrested and the entire Danish police force deported to KZ-camps. Prior to that --after the war against Soviet started-- the same police force had on request from the occupiers eagerly participated in the rounding up of Danish communist to be executed or deported.

Also I should mention Denmark mustered one of the relative largest forces of volenters to fight against the Russians, many times bigger than the actual resistence that specific came out of the arrests of the Danish communists.

Nothing to be proud of, but Danish business and agriculture made fortunes, and should be mentioned too, 'enjoyed' the privilege of slave labours. The number two or three corporation of Denmark (still is) FLS Industries run factories in the Baltic states (furnace, cement production) with slave labour. That is only a decade ago that was revealed an amends made.

[edit on 6/5/2008 by khunmoon]

Thank you for expanding on the information on Goering, it is most helpful. I think that he had already developed an addiction to morphine following injury in the WW1, it is probable though that this became worse during his sojourn in Sweden. I find the possibility that there is a connection to the Wallenbergs very intriguing. You have provided me with an excellent spring board



Do you think that this could have been to cover up their pro-Nazi activities? Many of the industrialists and financiers that held Nazi Party membership conspired with Himmler to be arrested in the round up of the 20th July 1944 attempt on Hitler's life. The event that you describe above does sound similarly contrived. In the case of the Germans, by being labeled as 'resistence' they hoped, and in some cases, succeeded, to escape prosecution.

Denmark enjoyed from day one of the occupation Hitler's private favoritism, and practicies unheard of in any occupation of the nazis --like at least for the first year and a half letting a communist party exist-- they were tolerated in DK, a friend and a major food supplier to the Wehrmact. Also that Jews unhidered could go about with their practises for the first three years of the war is unprecedented.

Correction! ...I stated 29th of Aug 1944 as the day Parliament was dissolved by the Germans, but that ol' mem'ry bucked me again.
It should correctly be 29th of Aug 1943. The events of summer 44 had to do with a national strike leading to increased terror and counter terror that ended with the breaking up of Danish police.

Rereading on the occupation of DK, I found this very good Wiki article

It is worth noting --after we didn't quite lived up to the role of "Model Protectorate"-- SS-Obergruppenführer (General) Dr. Werner (von) Best, was authorized as acting chancellor of Denmark. He was a well known member --and co-founder-- of Gestapo, so possibly some Himmler connection there too. As a currious note, some evidence suggests that he covertly cooperated in the safe passage of the Danish Jews.

As ref I also link the page From Danish Wiki on the subject. It is more comprehensive than the English version, and has the part about denouncing the communists.

The best way actually to get insight to the particular epoch and get a feel of what Danish inter-war society was like, is to read the novels of reknown Danish writer Hans Scherfig.


There is triology by him, written over 20+years covering the time leading to the occupation, *Idealists*, pub1945, describing the special scene, polarized in political extremism in one end, and exotic exoteric teaching in the other, which in many ways is telling for the 20s/30s political and mental culture. In this novel it's about occultism ... prophets and power, very witty.. on the 'underground' of Copenhagen in the 30s.

It runs paralel and continues into *Frydenholm*, pub1962, covering the war-time, and is about the politics of 'the cabinet of cooperation' and all the associations in its consideration to comfort the Germans, while pursueing their politics of non-violence.

It's the center piece in his authorship, a classic modelled over Scavenius, the German-pro head of cabinet for the later half of the war, about his mansion, given name to the novel set in the scene of a small rural community and what goes on 'up on the castle'. The main theme is the framing of the communists and the kind of games, like recognizing the German declaration of war on the Soviet Union, leading up to it. This book caused attempt to rewrite/fiercely defend status quo of our recent history, when it was first published in 1962. That's when the vails started to fall. Still almost every new season brings a new title on the subject of Danish involvement.



[edit to add] There has been a lot of camels to swallow over the years. First to get attacked was the myth of the importance of Danish resistence for the war in the North Atlantic. Railroad sabotage of the mainline through Jutland was its special. It's been claimed, some say proven, the actions meant nothing to the outcome on that front. It's been fiercely rejected for a quater century. As time passes the voices of objection dies out. The latest assertion, only a few seasons old, that Danish resistence in the final year of the war was mainly criminal gangs operating, taking advantage of the situation, have hardly raised an eyebrow (like in UK, a considerable percentage of new students cannot put WW2 and their national role in any concept of time or ideology).

---

On with Scherfig.

The third and closing book in the triology is set on the crime scene in the wake of the war
*The Scorpion*, pub1953, is about the kind of network that had operated and developed through the war and kept on operating more powerful than ever (late 40s, CIA is getting on the scene here), until they were cracked -- if the powers-that-be allowed it of course.

You can see they are not publish chronologic as the list goes

Idealists 1945
Frydenholm 1962
The Scorpion 1953
... ..by Hans Scherfig

In short he published the begining and the end first, and waited 20 years to publish the very sensible core of his message, Danish war time lies/crimes, is at least among those still alive, a subject still able to shatter.

Give them a go, it's highly satirical and sharp witted, still very humorous writing. If you can find them at the library.

They should be aviable in English --not sure about the first one--
I know they all are in Russian.



[edit on 8/5/2008 by khunmoon]
awhole lotta typos'n mssps



[edit on 8/5/2008 by khunmoon]

[edit on 8/5/2008 by khunmoon]

My name is Joseph P Bellinger, and I was the first researcher to undercover convincing evidence that Heinrich Himmler was assassinated by British agents in May, 1945. I am the author of the book, 'Himmlers Tod,' which was first published in Germany at about the same time Mr. Allen's book was released in England. It has also been recently published in France, but no English edition is currently planned for release.

If I may venture an opinion on the business of the forgeries, I would wager that the documents were in fact planted by people working within the British secret service rather than an obvious clumsy forgery by Mr. Allen. I further suspect that the forged documents were most likely destined for myself and that Mr. Allen simply happened to stumble upon them before I did.

The fortuitous fact of the matter is that I did not need to rely on clumsily contrived, opportune forgeries to prove my thesis that Heinrich Himmler was assassinated outright in 1945. The entire convergence of all the available evidence released from the archives in the United States as well as the United Kingdom all leads to the ineluctable conclusion that the chief of the Gestapo and SS was assassinated. My book also sets out convincing evidence as to why the assassination was decided upon and by whom. If I had relied on these planted documents, my entire thesis and credibility would have been irretrievably compromised. As luck would have it, Mr. Allen is now saddled with that burden, which I suspect will only increase his current malaise.

Welcome to ATS Mr Bellinger and thank you for your comments.

As I am in England and don't speak/read German it would be very helpful and of great interest to me (and I am sure other members) if you could outline, in brief, the evidence that you uncovered.

I personally have little difficulty in believing that Himmler was murdered by British SIS agents, the 'official' story of his death is somewhat fanciful and the assertion that he was able to keep a cyanide capsule concealed in his mouth, undetected (they were, I understand approximately 1.5 inches in length) for the period stated is completely implausible in my opinion. And this is just one of the inconsistencies. Additionally, there is ample circumstantial evidence to suggest that Himmler's was not the only assassination perpetrated by the SIS at this time.



I would have to disagree with you here. I do not think that the documents are forgeries and I think the unwillingness of the authorities to pursue the case is an indirect confirmation of this. I believe that the documents were replaced with forgeries after Allen had accessed them. In terms of media coverage, only the Times has given the case any publicity. The Times, is of course very much an organ of the British establishment.

Mr Allen is a respected author and has many contacts with both British and German ex-servicemen. He is respected by his peers and both the Hitler/Hess Deception and Himmler's Secret War were published by mainstream publishers. As such his findings were able to carry some authority. He has the experience and knowledge of the Kew archives not to be fooled by such 'clumsy forgeries'. I personally have little doubt that the entire purpose of the exercise was to damage his reputation and therefore muddy his excellently and meticulously sourced work. I also believe that the main purpose was not to detract from the Himmler episode but to diminish his previous study on the Hess episode. The evidence presented against Mr Allen was very hastily constructed and the fact that they were unable to effect the withdrawal of the book is proof positive that the evidence was contrived, despite the 'mis-reporting' of the Times, there was no case for Mr Allen to answer.



I would be very grateful if you could expand up on this, I have run a brief google search but unfortunately it seems you have been adopted by the Holocaust denial movement and I am concerned that words have been placed in your mouth that are not necessarily reflective of your work. This may not be the case, but I would very much like to learn more about the evidence that you uncovered in the US archives. I attempt to be open-minded and understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, however I do not see how the death of Himmler has any bearing on the holocaust other than to conceal the involvement of those nations and individuals who financed and traded with the SS, and therefore those who profited from the death of so many innocent civilians.

I am an admirer of David Irving's work and feel it is a great shame that he has been hijacked by the Denial movement, who's opinions in no way reflect his own and consider it a travesty that his excellent work is held in comparison to the very poor quality of research conducted by Rudolf, Faurisson and Zundel amongst others. Irving is the constant target of disinformation and is repeatedly offered forged documents in a quite obviously organised attempt to diminish his reputation. As such very few people are aware of the quality of his work and indeed have access to it, as he struggles to have it published. Irving in no way diminishes the atrocities committed, he merely has the audacity to present Hitler's inner circle as the flawed and corrupted human beings that they were. Not as the monsters portrayed many historians and the mainstream media. This to me prevents us from learning from the experience and moving beyond it. Mass murder and genocide are commonplace, by perpetuating the Hitler myth we are unable to foresee the complicity of all of us in dumbly standing by as it happens again and again, all in the pursuit of profit and the control of natural resources and trade. This it seems, was Mr Allen's crime too. I find it very sad.

I very much look forward to more of your comments.

Best wishes

Mr. Billinger, it is an honour to have you on ATS, a heartly welcome to the board, I hope you will enjoy it.

Please excuse my ignorance to your authorship, but from what I just quick-skimmed about it on the net I understand the reason for murdering Himmler was to prevent him to go public --as it would have been through a public trial-- with the knowledge he had about covert Anglo-German connections, both pre-war and through the secret negociations that took place during the war.

I should very much like to read your book, but I'm afraid my German will be insufficient to get the full value from it. So I too shall await the English version, or maybe even hope for a Danish or Swedish version.

From what I have learned about Mr. Allen and the set-up he has fallen victim to, I think the forged papers was there all the time for someone to find. Your assumption that they initially was placed there for you to find is indeed very intriguing.

As a sidenote, I have to correct Kilgore on when the forged document could have been placed in the archives. The FT article clearly states:




My quick research also told me that you have refrained from making comments on the Allen case as long it was under investigation. Now that it has been closed I hope you will have some comments for us to share here.

reply to post by khunmoon

---

My apologies for my incorrect evaluation of the material, I have just been reading through the material on the National Archive web site and there is something very intriguing going on. I very much hope that Mr Bellinger will return so that he can shed further light on the evidence that he has accessed to form his conclusion that Himmler was murdered by the SIS.

I am starting to feel a little more uncertain about Mr Allen's integrity and have many questions I would like to ask Mr Bellinger, not least of all his opinion on Hugh Thomas's book SS1: The Unlikely Death of Heinrich Himmler which puts forward the theory that it was not Himmler but a look-a-like who was taken into British custody. He too puts forward a seemingly credible case. Either way this would hang very much on the evidence that Mr Bellinger unearthed and how reliable that may be.

This is indeed turning out to be a very interesting thread and I am very excited about the way it is developing.

Mr Bellinger

I have been reading through some of the press coverage, including the original coverage in 2005 from the Telegraph (another establishment paper). The tone is very dismissive of the very notion that the SIS would have assassinated Heinrich Himmler. This is why I was so inclined to favour the fact that the documents were real, and I still have some misgivings that Allen himslef could have forged them...despite the findings of the forensic report. They are fake...but for me that only raises the question of why and who? Many individuals have attempted to sell fake documents relating to the Nazis - both Irving and Gita Sereny have been the victim of these types of hoaxs. The motive though is generally financial, which is why I am all the more intrigued. The motive here is less clear.

The documents cover not only the content of Himmler's Secret War but also it seems the Hitler/Hess deception. Though these documents are fake as you know the peace negotiation are well known and Charles Whiting, Irving and, Pinckett and Prince have all written about these events. Contrary to the way in which both the Telegraph and the Times have reported the impact of the fakes implies that these events are a creation of Allen's mind. They use language that almost ridicules the suggestion that the Churchill was engaged in any such negotiations. As you know there were several peace negotiations and we certainly are not solely reliant on Allen's version of events. This is why I had assumed Allen's veracity. These works all precede Allen's, some considerably. The very obvious bias of the reporting therefore sent alarm bells ringing for me.

I also noticed that MRD Foot was consulted as to the veracity of some of the documents. As Foot was a SIS operative himself and also a contributor to the 'Hitler Myth' and the 'Victor's' version of history - I also find this highly suspect.

Allen also details the amnesty that was offered to Schellenberg via Count Bernadotte - this is similarly detailed in numerous other books and sets a precedent on how the Brits were willing to compromise their 'morals' over when it came to certain war criminals and how their trials were handled.

First of all I do find it much more likely that Himmler was murdered than that he committed suicide. I do not, however think that it would have been simply to keep a lid on the peace negotiations, I think it is more likely because they didn't need him, because they had cut a deal with Schellenberg. If I recall correctly this is covered in Hugh Thomas's book as well as in Whiting's Hitler's Secret War. Therefore if the motivation was to keep the negotiations secret why was Schellenberg allowed to live?

I realise that you may be reluctant to give away the results of your research here given that you have published a book, but equally I am sure that you can appreciate my curiousity given that I have no access to that book. I would therefore be grateful if you could clarify for me why SIS may have wanted to kill Himmler.

Many thanks and best wishes.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout

---

I am François Delpla, a French historian. I said and wrote, since June 2005, that something is unclear an am asking, on my website and by other ways, for the whole truth and above all the complete release of the documents about Himmler's death.

The half-revelations of the english press and the National Archives website is a very good thing to boost that claim.

Cf. www.delpla.org...

Mr Delpla, welcome to ATS and I very much hope that you will consider registering as a member as I am very interested in what you may have to say on this matter - and would love to discuss this further. Sadly and shamefully, I speak/read only English, but glancing through your web site I recognised a number of words and phrases that piqued my interest. I am not a historian (though I perhaps have aspirations in that field) just an avid reader of history, particularly the period 1900 to present and as such I am always looking for new 'angles' to explore. Do you know if any of your work is available in English? I would very much like to read it if it is.

As I am sure you are aware the dossier held by the British government relating to Himmler is on a lock until 2045. I personally doubt that when it is released there will be anything left in there of substance. I believe that by with-holding this information, and much else, the British are doing the world a great disservice.

Again, I hope that you will register as I would love to discuss this with you further and learn a little more about your own findings on the matter. Otherwise I think you are limited to only one post every twelve hours, either way though I hope that we can develop a discussion as your work, the little I can understand, seems very interesting.

Best wishes

Dear Kilgore,


alas my writings are not yet, as far I know, in english ! Nor in german. Only a book was tranlated, both in polnish and portuguese !


***As I am sure you are aware the dossier held by the British government relating to Himmler is on a lock until 2045. ***

Where did you find this ? I personnaly saw, in Kew's files or catalogs, many documents or files 'retained' without the slightest announcement of release !

Although we are here discussing the authenticity of his work, Martin Allen I am sure gives this date, as does David Irving I believe and Hugh Thomas.

I think the Hess documents are on hold until 2014 as well...but I am not sure how this information can be obtained, presumably only when you request further details....



[edit on 16-5-2008 by KilgoreTrout]