Dance Music: talented vocals, quality production...so why isn't it on the air?

I usually just lurk/no posting but, this one does actually touch close to home for me. In my opinion it doesn't matter wether your playing a guitar, cello, banging on a glass with a wooden spoon, singing, punching a button on a drum machine, or tapping on your leg.... It's in fact music if you think it is. That in itself is the magic of music. are you gonna tell me the children in pre school watching elmo singing the word car over and over again to the tune of jingle bells aren't making music? Or that the 15 yr old kid in his room playing wooden spoons on the backs of pots and pans to led zeppelin isn't making his own form of music? Point is no matter how simple or unconventional it is still music. If you choose to be such a fundamentalist about what music is and or isn't maybe your not so different than someone who chooses the same feelings about religion. It might just be your way or the highway. I personally do not care too much for the whole electronic music thing. But, i do understand that people love it. That it is their favorite thing! And no matter how much I don't like it I still respect it, and the people who create it and the fans that love it. And maybe with the right song they could even turn me onto some of it. I have been making a living playing music for 12 yrs and have been playing music almost my entire life. I started on the wooden spoons listening to my favorite records when i was 8 10 yrs old trying as hard as i could trying to get it just right. Besides my family music has been the most important thing in my entire life. I have been lucky enough to make 7 records over a great career that is still going pretty strong. I am actually sitting in a studio in Los Angeles ,Ca as i type this while the producer,and singer record vocals for the single on my next record. And they happen to be recording it onto "pro tools" ( computer based music recording software that works great with mac format ) fact is 99% of all music you as a listener hear tody is recorded onto pro tools. Also, 99% of that music is recorded at different times...... ex: drummer comes in first knowing the song and ready to go. Drums are set up in a studio and mic'd. Then the drummer plays along to a click track set to a certain BPM ( beats per minute ) tempo.... this is usually decided in advance so everyone can learn the parts and practice the song to the correct speed. After the drummer has played thru the track start to finish a few times and the producer, engineer, and artists all agree they have a good take the drummer is done. next step is editing the drums, they actually go into the audio track and move, nudge, and fix any slight difference or nuance they hear till they have a track they feel is as good as it can be. ( a lot of producers leave nuances and mistakes to make it sound real ) but let's say its 8 am and the drummer didn't sleep at all the night before and he played everything really "on" but just didn't have the energy the track needed. They will actually move the entire track a little to the left of the click grid or " a tad ahead of the beat " to make it sound like the drummer was really on top of it.... this all sounds so fake and in reality it is but, this IS how MOST records are made today. Even a live recording of your favorite band today is edited from top to bottom.... As far as the rest of the recording process, next comes Bass, then guitar, then lead guitar, then a clean-up track ( stuff you missed on the first to guitar passes, then vocals, then vocal editing, auto tuning, then maybe then maybe the producer doesn't like the 3rd verse so he uses the pro-tools program to cut, and remove the entire 3rd verse......... then comes mixing, then mastering and blaammo!! you have a song...... do that 12 or more times and you have a record..... Don't get me wrong, before we ever step into the recording studio we are trapped in a room for 4 weeks in "pre production writing and arranging these songs together on our instruments....

even before protools, though they did the whole recording process onto tape... it wasnt really much different that today as far as most guys doing their tracks by them selves one guy at a time..... pro tools just makes the whole thing a lot easier and quicker.......as a drummer it's kind of a curse.... I am so used to playing to a click/set bpm on my records that when i listen to some of my own favorite records from the past i can actually hear them going in and out of time and speeding up and slowing down. Not that it is ba they did that its a curse because of hearing the song now i hear that. STP, NOFX, Led Zep, Ozzy i could just keep naming them... they all have records with that nuance.
Point is, ALL MUSIC today is recorded digitally, and put together like a puzzle. The only difference with the electronic music is what kind of instrument you are playing.... wether it be a fender strat or an MPC 2000 ( drum machine ) it all came from a place inside someone's head. That person had to play that guitar or program that beat. And as far as techno not being on the radio...... Techno does not sell like some other formats. Radio today is a joke. They do play the same 12 songs over and over again. Its about what label has the best guys working radio and who has the most payola.... It's a fact,Payola happens!! radio is not about music anymore its about money. Advertising is the only thing keeping radio on the air. Radio isnt about breaking new bands and new sounds its about ad money, demographics, and marketing research. hate to sound like a hippy but, thats just what it's become.
The marketing surveys have said that mid-west creed/style rock sells ads.... Linkin park sells ads, techno doesn't. More people like linkin park than the biggest techno guy according to market research. Being a radio station, who am i gonna play? the guy who gets me paid.

as far as cool music goes.....
sirius and xm both have stations devoted to to techno, rock, punk, classical..... and a lot more!!! they are much better than mainstream because the revenues are coming from subscribers. that gives you the listener a better radio station....

maybe go pick up a local music magazine and find something new.... go to google and type "summer music festival" look at summer sonic in Japan, or download in the UK or green field in Switzerland. Or one of the many many huge festivals happening every year...... you might get to see Kiss play with Death by stereo and Moby!! all in one day!! with some great people outside having a great time together. Metal, punk, and techno!! weee!!!!

maybe check out community based websites like myspace..... its the music site with EVERY single band on it....

you can use the music biz as an analogy to describe a lot of the problems we have today. Big biz taking away out options.... the wal-mart inazation of america..... how money really does drive almost everything. How some people sitting in a board room are deciding whets best for you...... you don't have to listen. you still have choices out there... and if its techno, you will find lots of people ho love it as much as you ; )

I love dance music and listen to it all the time. I grew up with classical music playing all day long in the house, and have the classical repetoire memorized, and dance music is a great alternative.

Why it's not on the radio? The track lengths, for one. Not easy to market, like a Madonna, for another. labels don't invest in it. It has the shelf life of bread. Also, it is best heard when mixed by a DJ, who in a way is the star, not the single track.

That said, there are hundreds of internet radio stations playing great DJ sets and mixes between a half-hour and an hour long.

Music I listen to (Depeche Mode, The Cure) rarely gets played on the radio here in the US anymore. They get played a lot out in California and New York though. Also heard them once in Florida. Can't remember the last time I heard them on the radio locally. When one station was doing an 80's weekend me and friends called in requests for both Depeche Mode and The Cure songs. Both groups were huge and very influential back then and still are huge today and they never played anything we requested. We weren't surprised by that at all.

Then there's MTV and VH-1. They mostly play music videos late at night now except for TRL during the day, but they don't even play the whole video most of the time. Most of what they show is reality shows that have nothing to do with music unless you count the has-been, no talent singers you see on Celebrity Rehab or Celebrity Fit Club.

I personally don'tt have a problem with house music. I'm a musician and I listen to all sorts of music, like jazz classical, rock, flamenco, hip hop, and dance music. I live right outside of Detroit, and dance music is pretty big here, but maybe thats because it has origins here. Tech fest is this weekend actually, and that allways draws large crowds.

Originally posted by skyshow

ps: there really is a conspiracy here for the die hards who bother to dig and tear into it...dig you guys!!!! right a social wrong!

[edit on 3-5-2008 by skyshow]

This is not a conspiracy. It's life.

Rap music got ZERO radio play in the late 80's and early 90's, when the best of the genre was produced. The best you could do was to listen to college radio or stay up until after midnight when there might be an hour show on late at night.

Once record executives realized that NWA could go platinum on word of mouth and bootlegs/mixtapes alone, they started marketing it (see vanilla ice, young MC, MC Hammer ETC).

Now we are in the 'sold out' phase of the genre, this happens before all music dies. Look at rock, then glam rock, then death of rock...then Pantera and the rebirth of metal ... Look at Seattle in the early 90's, look at 'grunge' now.

In the early 90's there were three seperate 'dance radio' stations that played exclusively dance songs, techno and all that other electronic dance music. There was even a weekly live television show called 'electric circus' which was a dance party kind of show, kind of a throw back to soul train but with C&C Music Factory instead of James Brown.

It's cyclical, and if you were any good at your job (seeing as how you are in the industry), you would recognize that music is trendy.

I'd fire you if I was your boss.

reply to post by Enrikez


Why would you fire me? Because I expressed an opinion and suggested digging a bit deeper on a thread on a conspiracy sight for a conspiracy? What you don't think intelligence or military have never got involved in music and movies??? You don't think any social engineering ever occurs in America? I'm disappointed in you; how did you ever find this sight and why did you bother even signing up to be a member if you can't fathom such a possibility?
I'm certainly glad your not my boss or I would quit on the spot!



[edit on 7-5-2008 by skyshow]

Music died around '97-98 in Canada. In '91-93 it was all original dance music even if it was made with a computer, it had heart! Now dance is made to make money/fame.

Good dance: www.youtube.com... (IMO it was good)

There are people who confuse this: www.youtube.com... with dance and play it on the radio, then others think dance really sucks unless your dancing.

The dance thats played on the radio NOW is like the second example but with less rave, more hip-hop and "squeeky beep" sounds but it is done with no heart.

Here is computer generated stuff that has no heart and just a tiny bit of funk: www.youtube.com...

IMO the 70's 80's were the best time for music because they still had heart and originality. Now, rappers (yes, its a generalization) has to come and screw with songs like these: www.youtube.com... . Long ago, I liked some rap, it had more class/smarts and was alot more fun.


There does seem to be a push for more rap. Image does help yet what about Marilyn Manson (I know, I know) or even Mindless self indulgence who do crazy stuff for image AND have good original music? I don't think its so that people don't vote so much as it is dividing people enough so that someday poeple will want the govt. to take over.

They are doing the same with video games, theres alot of games now that lack imagination or have misguided imagination. But for the most part, its sports,war and car "sim" games that are tweeked year to year and way too many pixar disney games. Video games died halfway through PS'2s lifetime. Where did the space ship shoot em ups go?UFO's?

what ever the problem is, money is the cause.

This is most peoples idea of techno dance, honestly, please watch it
www.youtube.com...

Just so you know, Im into: industrial, techno, EBM, darkwave, metal, trance, psy trance, speed GOA, some rave, techno, new age/dream trance and 80's!

KNHC C-89.5 F.M. Seattle Public Schools (Nathan Hale H.S.) oldest U.S. commercial free dance music station

I am interested in the 440 or 432 frequency discussions, and the theories of tonal scalar assignment history. For now I prefer dance music bpms and melodiousness, many hopeful lyrics imo.

For all good Nathan Hale High people: Quenn Anne High rules! Grizzlies '81!

jc

ha!! I was born and raised in Seattle and I remember Nathan Hale and 89.5.... back in those days late 80's early 90's that station changed my life when I heard the pixies while listening to it!! Lived near northgate mall!! small world!! great place and time to grow up!!

Geert Huinink, the composer behind the music of, among others DJ Tiesto. Geert has frequently experimented with the music frequency in 432Hz and brings his music now standard in this way.

Why read this thread. link
and this one:
link

That's why they don't want dance in the us airwave's because you will start to become hopeful, and happy when you hear this. Mozart and beethoven's music are also originally in 432hz! and is proven to improve learning, happiness etc...

OK, bottom line is, once again, no matter the music yer into. there is no CONSPIRACY!!!,SHERlY CROW IS COMMERCIAL. REM- COM, OASIS-COM.eTC. If it's crap it's on the radio. why?
Because they are commercials. who cares, it's done for money. they admit it , no conspiracy, thread is dead. If you want to discuss your bull# musical likes and dislikes that what your retard facebook profile is for.


P.S. only girls 14 -22 like dance.They don't have any money.....2+3= 5......

reply to post by johndoeknows


I think Tiesto and others using 432hz (instead of 440hz) is why it resonates so well with people. I love these replies and posts on this thread...after a lot of research into this matter further I'm further struck by the math in it all...and also interesting that at 144BPM's (most really fun hi energy Euro or trance) is double the natural heart rate...12 beats per minute lower gives you the standard 132BPM house and dance music that stems from various musical backgrounds but basically is the same top spinning that got spun in the 70's golden era...

Looks like we are chipping away at the ice burg here, and I found it fascinating to find out that Nazi Germany (you know the place that George Bush's grandfather Prescot bank rolled, the same place we bombed to ablivian but some how never was able to hit the Bayer pharma fascilities...connection with Donald Rumsfeld there I do believe if you dig...anyway, further digression) had pushed for universal tuning at 440hz and barred any decent from musicians who supported 432hz...moreover some specualtions about how when the Roman Catholic church saught to unify everyone and control all human activity, including music, that they even had their hand in this "dual knowledge" as it were...

For all the BS (present company included lol) you sift through here on ATS, I'm often blown away by what I have learned and came into contact with...you guys are awsome, I love ATS!

Oh, one more thing. If you want to try a fun experiment: you need a cat (a dog might work, but I tried it with cat) and then crank up your system, and play this:

youtube.com...

if the link doesn't work search "webs of Maya" on youtube

and watch the kitty freak out. Mine tried to go inside the speakers then she started purring and acting like a little kitten, she got playful and very effectionate right after it... so see if your animals react to this.

Also:

youtube.com...

"the bobby lavigne project 432"

That gave me goosebumps.

I love the 432!!!!!

reply to post by morthn1waytoskinacat

Because they are commercials. who cares, it's done for money. they admit it , no conspiracy, thread is dead. If you want to discuss your bull# musical likes and dislikes that what your retard facebook profile is for.

I wish you would have read through a little more in depth. If you did you might see the angles to this and how it goes beyond "selling commercials" on air... 1. We talked about how Payola, though illegal, still happens, and it is steered away from "Dance". 2. We talked about (and in other threads as well) the destructive themes often in Hip-hop music that is noticeably not present in dance whatsoever, and that the (referring to #1) money is with hip-hop. 3. The 4440hz vs. 432hz issue and how a lot of dance is at the 432hz. 4. we brought down some common criticisms of the format and myths surrounding the production not just of Dance, but of various other formats. 5. Evidence out there does exist in the form of quarter hour radio ratings and in many markets, Dance mix shows have performed extremely well, further adding weight to an organized effort to keep it off the air despite it's obvious commercial potential...can't have Dance getting in the way of our investment of payola mullah in other formats (this tends to play out with consultant groups and industry promoters)...

But whatever, nothing here, move along, right?

I don't know how you define the word conspiracy? I thought it was two or more folks involved in pulling one over on folks...I thought this thread did a marvelous job at speculation regarding such a possibility.

I feel badly that you got so bent out of shape over this and seem so angry. That anger and discontent really shows particularly when you obviously didn't read the entire thread but seemed to just cherry pick, and prematurely pronounced it dead. Perhaps it's the music your listening to?

I know there's a lot of garbage in these threads, but you know, sometimes the real actual conspiratorial junk going on in this cruel world are often talked about in areas you'd rather dismiss. We are talking a billion dollar plus industry here yo! but move along, nobody would dare do anything crooked in the honest world of music and broadcasting!


[edit on 15-5-2008 by skyshow]

reply to post by skyshow


I'm not angry, yo! (irritating vernacular, by the way. Use proper English when you write, anything else makes you appear...pedestrian.)
I simply point out the facts. And I don't care what hertz that crap is written in. Most car horns and telephones wring or buzz at 440 hertz. It's called an "a" note. Why do they do that?
Because it is a very common sound, thus not as annoying as say a "b" flat. No conspiracy. Most moderm music is written to a standard tuning called a440. That's what it means, "a" note, 440 hertz.
You can attach whatever esoteric meaning you want to 432 hertz, (om, and all that) but I would almost guarantee that if someone played you both pitches the difference to the average ear (yours), would be bloody near indistinguishable, and unless you have perfect pitch(seriously doubt it, by the way), average (or below average most likely), means you.
Perhaps a little music theory study, and hell, some music history, before you comment on stuff you obviously have less than a rudimentary knowledge of.
You can call me a luddite, or an old fart, I don't really care. Bottom line:
Dance music is relentlessly untalented garbage.
It is the fast food of the music world and everyone (including the purveyors of said nonsense) know it, except the mindless zombies who don't want anything challenging in their music, just a good beat and
forgettable lyrics set to a hypnotic melody pattern that by definition never changes, just repeats the same stupidity over, and over, and over, and over, and over, ad nauseaum, that they can gyrate like an idiot to on the dance floor.
Angry?
Hardly. I could give a rats ass. There is plenty of great music out there written and performed by musicians, not some dipsh7t in a basement suckering braindamaged,depressed,kids that can't decide what sex they are,into buying their twaddle. In ten years people will say "Remember that crap we listened too?" Just like they do about disco now. Only difference
is that disco was played by real musicians, not some retard with two turntables and a microphone, (and i say that knowing I'm doing an immense disservice to metally handicapped people everywhere).........

[edit on 17-5-2008 by morthn1waytoskinacat]

It's because mainstream music is pure prolefeed. The hip hop they play isn't even close to real hip hop.

Please check out some of my music. It is like electronica dream pop. My new track "Hope" is real dance-y, but not in the trance or house kind of way.

The Surfis.

www.myspace.com/surfis

reply to post by morthn1waytoskinacat


Wow you must not have listened to any real good electronica.

It's true that most of it sucks. But there are quite a few good ones.

to name two:
Pendulum
Groove Armada

It's a skill to be able to make dance music WITHOUT having it sound repetitive. It is not impossible. Too bad you are only exposed to the trash.

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
reply to post by morthn1waytoskinacat

 

Wow you must not have listened to any real good electronica.

.

Good and electronica don't even belong in the same sentence. Unless the sentence is:
"Good, electronica is dead."

reply to post by italkyoulisten


To be honest I used to not like dancey type electronica either, but after listening to MSTRKRFT, RJD2, Daft Punk, and Groove Armada, I've come to understand its dual simplicity and sophistication.

Maybe one day you will have a realization.

Electronica is more than just "two turn tables and a microphone", not to quote Beck, but seriously. There's tons of # that you have to do. Drum machines to wire up. Different effect machines to tweak. You got synths to program and play. If you use samples, specifically of music being played, most of the time you would have recorded them yourself. My point being - dance music is just not the trancy techno house bull# that you seem to stereotype with.