Is belief enough to be "saved"?

im starting this thread because i wanted to respond to shar's post but realized that is it a subject unto itself

i noticed that alot of christians feel this way so i figured id pull up some scriptures to see what the bible says on the subject

Originally posted by Shar
Being saved is extremly easy. John 3:16 a verse everyone knows sums it up.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Bottom line is if you believe in Jesus you will not perish.

but james says.....

james 2:[19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

luke 13:[23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, [24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

strive is not the word used when it is easy. its something that takes effort

1 corinthians 5:[11] But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. [12] For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? [13] But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

the congregation is supposed to be kept clean. this scripture is talking about unrepentant sinners (people who know what they are doing and do it willingly), not to be mixed up with people who sin by accident or because of weakness.

ephesians 4:17 - 5:5 [17] This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, [18] Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: [19] Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. [20] But ye have not so learned Christ; [21] If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: [22] That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; [23] And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; [24] And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. [25] Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. [26] Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: [27] Neither give place to the devil. [28] Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. [29] Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. [30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. [31] Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: [32] And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. [1] Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; [2] And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. [3] But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; [4] Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. [5] For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

again, we should not be willful sinners

jude [4] For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

misusing the mercy (or grace of god is a no no. just because god is mercifull doesnt mean we can sin assuming forgiveness

acts 17:[30] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

repentence is required

james 5:[19] Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
[20] Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

once one repents, he must not return to sin

matthew 10:[22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

obeying jesus's commandments takes effort. endurance doesnt imply easiness

1 cor 9:[24] Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

being a christian is likened to a race. i had a friend run in the NY marathon. i have to say, it looks hard

1 peter 4:[17] For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

obeying is more than believing

james 1:[22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. [23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: [24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

again, doing is more than believing. believeing in christ is good, but if you dont love your brother, how can you say you are saved

beginning of revelation (too long to quote here) goes on with jesus counsiling congregations of supposed "saved" people, notice that with some congregations jesus had hard critisim. more than believing is required

phillipians 2:[12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

one can never presume his salvation.

2 peter 2 :[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

"once saved always saved" doesnt work here. you can lose your "saved" statis should you unrepentantly sin

matt 28:[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

we have to observe jesus' commandments

john 15:[6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

a person not living in harmony with jesus is not saved

Yes, Very good scriptures, too.

and also Hebrews;
Hbr 6:1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hbr 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Hbr 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

Hbr 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

Hbr 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.

Hbr 6:9 ¶ But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.



You may notice that they were partakers of the Holy Spirit!

The ten Virgins also, 5 were wise and 5 foolish. They ALL had their lamps burning with the Holy Spirit oil, then, the 5 foolish Virgins let theirs go out , from laziness and lukewarmness!
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

They would be left behind in the Rapture!


[edit on 2-5-2008 by Clearskies]

Oh!
BTW, I believe that you can be born-again, SAVED by faith alone.
I was saved, Born-again with ONE prayer. By myself.
But, to not become a reprobate and an apostate takes effort in this
sinful world. If we maintain faith in Jeshua then he will help us and he will direct our paths.

Oh my gosh. Please for now on if you want me too see something u 2 me and tell me. I just saw this post.

I was not raised up in any church or follow man’s point of view. I was saved alone by my bed at the age of 9. I am self taught by the Holy Spirit and that is it.

However, I get so tired of people taking scriptures out of context and claiming it too be fact! I first want you to know. I do not argue over my Lord and Savior. I will however try and help with answers to questions. But, I won’t argue. Here’s why:
Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.


Now no where did I say you can sin and go to Heaven. No where. Cause this is what I believe.
Matthew 7

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Why do I believe this:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Oh look above wonderful works is not going to get you there alone. NO, No, No. You have to believe in Him and respect Him and Love Him. Anyone I said anyone can use the Power of Gods name to cast out a demon that is works. It does not mean they are saved.

Ephesians 2

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Ok now I’m going to answer a few questions. At this point I don’t know if I will get to them all you are repeating yourself and taking out of context.

James 2

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 19 Yes, the devils tremble.

Matthew 8

28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the ti30And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
me?

What I like about that is the devils knew it wasn’t Jesus’ time yet to be casting them to the lake of fire. So they begged Him to let them go into the swine. I think that is so funny.


In your James 20 how can a true Christian turn away someone who needs bread. You are not saved by your works however by faith and the Love of Jesus we will work for Him and help our fellow man. I myself do this as often as God allows me too. Strangers ask me almost daily for money or food. I’m constantly do this. I try hard to help others out as often as possible. But, I also witness for the Lord and do what I can. Am I perfect? In no way. I will never be. I come up short all the time. My temper will get the best of me. All we can do is our best. You have to remember God knows our Hearts. There is no lying to Him.
Luke 13: 23, 24 already answered that. You cannot sin willing and not ask forgiveness.

1 Corinthians 6


9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Ok it seems to me that you understand more than you let on. For whatever reason though you want to take some scriptures out of content.


Matthew 10:[22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

And we are very much so hated. Take a look around.


2 Peter 2

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Correct, again though if you are truly saved and have the Holy Spirit in you and you are not pretending (as a lot of earthly men do) you won’t go down that path and stay that way. You can repent and ask for forgiveness.

Luke 17

3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

What do you think God won’t forgive us. Cause He will. Were not perfect.
Remember God knows each and every one of us. What you do and I do even if it’s the exact same sin (for instance) may be judge differently cause He knows our hearts. So all I can say to you is do your best once you have accepted Him and Believe on Him the way Jesus’ teaches us and you won’t go wrong.

What do you think God won’t forgive us. Cause He will. Were not perfect.
Remember God knows each and every one of us. What you do and I do even if it’s the exact same sin (for instance) may be judge differently cause He knows our hearts. So all I can say to you is do your best once you have accepted Him and Believe on Him the way Jesus’ teaches us and you won’t go wrong.

the point of this thread was to answer those that feel that ALL is needed is to believe. obviously more than that is required. from your post it seems you agree

Originally posted by miriam0566
the point of this thread was to answer those that feel that ALL is needed is to believe. obviously more than that is required. from your post it seems you agree

I personally disagree. Anything in addition to faith seems to me to be an abomination for you are trying to reconcile yourself with two different ideologies; one being a free gift and the other being conditional. The two things cannot both save you. You either have one or the other, but they cannot work together because one denies the other.

This is a critical Christian oversight that sounds good because it reinforces the idea that once you are saved you do good, which in fact is a lie. No one is good, whether you are saved or not. We are saved by faith alone and nothing else, otherwise we wouldn't need God at all. There is no other way.

How can you ever be saved if Christians always tag on additional conditions that are carnal in nature?

Originally posted by ben91069

Originally posted by miriam0566
the point of this thread was to answer those that feel that ALL is needed is to believe. obviously more than that is required. from your post it seems you agree

I personally disagree. Anything in addition to faith seems to me to be an abomination for you are trying to reconcile yourself with two different ideologies; one being a free gift and the other being conditional. The two things cannot both save you. You either have one or the other, but they cannot work together because one denies the other.

This is a critical Christian oversight that sounds good because it reinforces the idea that once you are saved you do good, which in fact is a lie. No one is good, whether you are saved or not. We are saved by faith alone and nothing else, otherwise we wouldn't need God at all. There is no other way.

How can you ever be saved if Christians always tag on additional conditions that are carnal in nature?

james 2:[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

to illustrate. take a bad man. he murders, he steals, he fornicates, does all that nasty stuff. then he puts faith in Jesus. goes right back to killing and stealing etc etc, without so much as even an attempt adjust his lifestyle

are you saying this man deserves salvation?

reply to post by miriam0566


Look, I know you mean well, but you can just about use any scripture you want to support any idea you want and make it all sound good, but your missing the whole point of what I previously said that no amount of bible scripture is going to unprove.

You cannot be saved as a free gift of God and then also say that in addition you have to perform a certain way as well. You have denied faith by applying the condition of actions upon it.

Now about that particular scripture you referenced, maybe God wants you to have a faith that is 'dead', meaning that does not require works. For like a seed, faith must die before it can take root, sprout and grow. You must find a faith that is dead to works before it can truly honor God, for God does not need any of your works, or sacrifices. He wants mercy not sacrifice.

That means he does not ask you to give up your ways, for he made no mistake in creating you and all your faults. He wants you to have a faith that overlooks your flaws so that you can forgive them in others as an offering of mercy unto others the way you would have him do to you.

You cannot obtain that in any way the moment you apply a rule or condition to the accessibility to God or salvation. In fact, it makes you into a thief.

I have been studying the Amish and other anabaptist religions and quite frankly I think they have the right idea on this subject (although in an overkill way in my opinion).

The Amish do not believe in infant baptism. They believe that an individual should be baptised at an age when they can accept Christ as their savior, after you are baptised, the amish are to lead by example and live by the same morals that jesus lived by when he was alive. If you continue to sin after you are baptised, the Amish consider that as breaking your promise to God and therefore you are no longer saved.

Ben I understand what you are saying, but the way I feel, how can God give us rules for how to lead our lives and then turn around and say "But that doesn't matter as long as you except my son as your savior." That doesn't make sense either does it?

Originally posted by ben91069
reply to post by miriam0566

 

Look, I know you mean well, but you can just about use any scripture you want to support any idea you want and make it all sound good, but your missing the whole point of what I previously said that no amount of bible scripture is going to unprove.

so god writes the bible, but if something written in it disagrees with your personal faith, well then its ok omit that part.

in this thread i have shown a slew of scriptures that show that god DOES have requirements. it is fully in harmony with the rest of the bible. it makes sense that god would give laws to the isrealites, its in harmony with lots of what jesus said. it even makes the scriptures about armageddon and the killing of the lawless make sense.

i would venture to say it is you who is using a scripture to support and idea you think sounds good.

even romans 5 says

[18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

i put in bold the parts that show some personal responsibility is involved.

the free gift is the mercy of god, yes we will not be able to perfectly follow his laws. his free gift can be likened to an invitation.

in noahs day, didnt noah preach to the people. he offered anyone who wanted to to join him. you can even say the invitation was a ¨free gift¨. but there was still action required. you had to get on the boat!

if your standing outside the ark while the door is shut with the rain falling, what good is the invitation going to do then?

jesus likened our situation to noah´s

matt 24:[36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.[38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,[39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

here´s another question for you, how can a person with no respect for god count on his mercy?

Originally posted by snowflake_obsidian
Ben I understand what you are saying, but the way I feel, how can God give us rules for how to lead our lives and then turn around and say "But that doesn't matter as long as you except my son as your savior." That doesn't make sense either does it?

But haven't you read when asked about divorce, Jesus replied that the law was given enabling man to divorce his wife not because it was correct, but because man had hardened his heart. There is something more to that than Jesus describing the ability for a man to lawfully divorce his wife here and under what circumstances.

What he is saying is that the law wasn't given to us as a set of rules to live by, but that we are the ones breaking the law of love which is within you, therefore by doing so we are creating the written law, which is external. It began as ten laws (all spiritual) and as the people could not understand that all of it was within themselves (which is the sin) they began to add more and more laws and rules. Now we have a whole codified set of laws which do little to prevent the very things we consider is wrong; because we are looking outside ourselves for the answer.

You're saying that I am proposing that everyone is saved if they say they are, which is not true. I am saying is that salvation is only between you and God and no man (not even I) can tell by outward actions if God has chosen a man to be saved or not, for it isn't by works. If it were in whole or part, then salvation is a mute point - better go hang yourself. (that was a joke - dont do it kids).

The whole concept of being "saved" is a myth.

Saved from what?

Originally posted by ben91069

Originally posted by snowflake_obsidian
Ben I understand what you are saying, but the way I feel, how can God give us rules for how to lead our lives and then turn around and say "But that doesn't matter as long as you except my son as your savior." That doesn't make sense either does it?

But haven't you read when asked about divorce, Jesus replied that the law was given enabling man to divorce his wife not because it was correct, but because man had hardened his heart. There is something more to that than Jesus describing the ability for a man to lawfully divorce his wife here and under what circumstances.

What he is saying is that the law wasn't given to us as a set of rules to live by, but that we are the ones breaking the law of love which is within you, therefore by doing so we are creating the written law, which is external. It began as ten laws (all spiritual) and as the people could not understand that all of it was within themselves (which is the sin) they began to add more and more laws and rules. Now we have a whole codified set of laws which do little to prevent the very things we consider is wrong; because we are looking outside ourselves for the answer.

i agree, the 2 commandments are to serve god and love your neighbor, on these the whole law hangs (notice it isnt disregarded)

everything in the bible,every law, every principle can be brought back to these 2 commandments.

these 2 commandments are HARD to follow. especially if someone is not applying it to you. but you still need to follow them. action IS required.

You're saying that I am proposing that everyone is saved if they say they are, which is not true. I am saying is that salvation is only between you and God and no man (not even I) can tell by outward actions if God has chosen a man to be saved or not, for it isn't by works. If it were in whole or part, then salvation is a mute point - better go hang yourself. (that was a joke - dont do it kids).

absolutely true again. salvation is between you and god and no man, priest, etc can tell you otherwise. but that doesnt mean there isnt some standard of accountability

Originally posted by miriam0566
so god writes the bible, but if something written in it disagrees with your personal faith, well then its ok omit that part.

It doesn't disagree with my faith and I do not condone omitting anything which the bible has clearly done so, given there are so many versions (not translations).

in this thread i have shown a slew of scriptures that show that god DOES have requirements.

I hate to sound like my atheist friends here, but you are using a book to back up spiritual understandings. You also stated above that "so god writes the bible". Clearly I hope you would agree that God may have inspired men to write the bible and that he personally did not write it. If this is the case, then it is obvious that God inspires spiritual wisdom within other books, videos, song, media, etc. Actually, I have found that Disney cartoons have an uncanny similarity to many attributes of the Jesus story.

it is fully in harmony with the rest of the bible. it makes sense that god would give laws to the isrealites, its in harmony with lots of what jesus said. it even makes the scriptures about armageddon and the killing of the lawless make sense.

In a spiritual sense it has harmony although it seems to me to be more of a leaping platform to higher understandings, but that's just my view. It's harmony can and has been twisted to mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

The bible definitely has a lot of sensible killing satires within the pages.

i would venture to say it is you who is using a scripture to support and idea you think sounds good.

And you're quite right. It is beyond me to conceive that God tests us the same way the world tests an individual; that being given a task without the tools to complete the job. Where the world requires you to follow a law and rule that may be contrary to nature, God knows better and you should to. It is silly to even think that we have anything to wager with God about our souls, even the ability to have free will.

even romans 5 says

[18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

i put in bold the parts that show some personal responsibility is involved.

Perfect then. The responsibility is that one free gift, not the additional attachments. It's just that simple it makes people jealous.

here´s another question for you, how can a person with no respect for god count on his mercy?

My friend, do you not know that love has conquered all things, even imperfection? It does not even require a man to believe, for it is not a man that can ascend to the heavens, but God alone can grant that right. God shall take what you call the atheist in one day and show him the glory that he has forgotten and think nothing of all the time spent wandering like a lost child.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
The whole concept of being "saved" is a myth.

Saved from what?

from ourselves, from the deluded myth that we are perfect the way we are.

reply to post by miriam0566

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
The whole concept of being "saved" is a myth.

Saved from what?


from ourselves, from the deluded myth that we are perfect the way we are.

Are you deluded? I certainly am not. Perfect is also a myth!

Originally posted by miriam0566
from ourselves, from the deluded myth that we are perfect the way we are.

Well I hope you understand that we are perfect because we are loved even with flaws. Its like looking at a stucco wall versus a flat wall. The stucco wall dislikes flatness but it looks way better than a flat wall at least the last time I saw pictures of Mexico or a Taco Bell.

Originally posted by ben91069

Originally posted by miriam0566
from ourselves, from the deluded myth that we are perfect the way we are.

Well I hope you understand that we are perfect because we are loved even with flaws. Its like looking at a stucco wall versus a flat wall. The stucco wall dislikes flatness but it looks way better than a flat wall at least the last time I saw pictures of Mexico or a Taco Bell.

so you saying that the world is the way it is because we are a different kind of perfect?

im surprised i even have to argue this point.....

for BILLIONS, life is a hell on earth. hungry, tired, sick, and suffering. my own experiences included.

even for those in first world countries... why is suicide rates higher in affluent countries? how many millions are on happy pills? divorces? what about diseases?

even on this forum, how many can say they are happy. even if they say they are happy, how many can say they dont have problems. what about death?

all this because adam and much of his offspring said they dont need god.

im sorry, but the evidence is OVERWHELMING that earth is messed up and is far from perfect

reply to post by miriam0566


Which is greater lesson; learning to know a Creator would make us in the worst state we could be in so that he can embrace us by eventually showing his compassion or just making everything perfect in the first place and do away with suffering? After the outcome you would be more grateful through the more difficult path, but only afterwards.

Besides, it's impossible to create everything and not include suffering. We have to get this over with.