New Phoenix Lights Hoaxer Might Be Lying About Hoaxing

Here's another video of the April 21st lights...this guy who made the video claims he and his friends already tried to duplicate the lights with flares and balloons and that it failed...I will e-mail him to see if he has video of their recreation.

Warning...contains graphic language so if your kids are around turn the sound off!

I sent the guy who videotaped this a youtube message, will post if he replies



[edit on 3-5-2008 by LateApexer313]

[edit on 3-5-2008 by LateApexer313]

[edit on 3-5-2008 by LateApexer313]

Well the story gets more interesting...I did some digging and I was curious about why they aren't arresting or at least ticketing this individual, as you all are...

This statement taken from the article:

www.azcentral.com...

Officials with the Phoenix Fire department said they looked into whether any laws were broken, but so far have not found any. They said there are laws governing fire works, but none when it comes to flares tied to balloons that are released into the sky.

That's ridiculous because just in the 5 minutes it took me to google the Phoenix fire code laws, find them, read them in PDF form, I found these 2 that the "hoaxer" could have been cited for...

3013.3 of the Phoenix Fire code law states a separate permit is required for tents, outdoor fireworks, theatrical and special effects displays, the display of vehicles and use of open flames.

An even better one that applies more to this situation...

305.3 Open Flame Warning Devices. Open flame warning devices shall not be used along an excavation, road, or any place that dislodgement of such devices might permit the device to roll, fall or slide onto any land or area containing combustible material.

Taken from the Phoenix Fire Codes:
www2.iccsafe.org...

Let's see, an "open flame warning device" pretty much fits a FLARE to me...just another huge hole in the story.

You can't tell me that in Phoenix, as dry as it is, that this man wouldn't be at least ticketed for this stunt, if indeed his story is true.









[edit on 3-5-2008 by LateApexer313]

The problem i have is this, if this was an attempt by "men in black" who paid or influenced this fella into saying he did this, (as some posters have suggested )then they are not going to allow police to arrest him in case he coughs up or spills the beans, if he never comes home i think he may be in some bother,Then if you watch the video the balloon/Object on the left drifts across towards the right side but all the other balloons / objects stay stationary, IMO if they where balloons shouldn't they all move relative to each other? never seen an individual balloon move when it is attached to others and the rest stay still? if you release a bunch of balloons they stay together and start drifting apart but they all move with the wind at the same time together in the same direction.

how long is the burning time of roadside flares? does it fit in with what witnesses have reported? if this fella did do this he is sooo lucky to not have started a fire which could have killed firefighters as well as the wildlife, a lot of which in that area is protected.

You know i have to say this, this subject has caused so much controversy here on ATS over the past week or so, with debunker's galore screaming balloon, have any of them shown up to give an updated opinion, i wont mention the other thread which blew up, my point is those of us who day in and day out have to put up with the ridicule for just believing in this subject, this one brought some prized comments and s'n-word''s as well as some unruly comments to other ATS'ers, whatever happened to honour? i know nothing has been proven as yet, but it wasn't the other day either, what we need is more working together like this, and less of the nonsense which prevents any forward movement, then we all might gain something from it.

azz

someone suggested a bunch of people should get together and imitate the purported flare stunt... see if the Fire dept comes after them

see if anyone's arrested..

of COURSE you WOULD be.. etc.. and you'd be putting other people and their property in danger as well.

this guy who's being interviewed in the video... is completely lying.
i can feel it in my gut.

it's cover propaganda.
and i feel insulted even having to discuss the propaganda as if i'd actually believe it in the first place.

-

Originally posted by azzllin
how long is the burning time of roadside flares? does it fit in with what witnesses have reported? if this fella did do this he is sooo lucky to not have started a fire which could have killed firefighters as well as the wildlife, a lot of which in that area is protected.

Hi azzllin...thanks for your post, great points you bring up...here's the burning time of the most common type of red flare:

Another type of flare is the fusee, which burns for 15-60 minutes with a bright red light. Fusees are commonly used to indicate obstacles or advise caution on roadways at night; in this usage they are also called highway flares, road flares, or ground flares. They are commonly found in roadside emergency kits.

en.wikipedia.org...

Click on this to see a photo of red flares in use...



[edit on 3-5-2008 by LateApexer313]

Originally posted by qxlb52
Like I said before, I and my high school friends would try this sort of thing with party balloons filled with helium and long sparklers or automotive road flares in the 60s.

Hiyah qxlb, thanks for your post...could you please explain, in more detail how you and your friends went about doing this with party balloons and flares since some of us can't understand how the flair wouldn't burn through whatever was anchoring it to the balloon etc...just a quick step by step how-to would be awesome and might help those in this thread that want to recreate the scenario to see if it is possible to achieve the effect that we saw in the videos...thanks ahead of time

If Lino Mailo and his neighor ARE responsible, and I believe they are, then admitting to it would be an admission of guilt covered by several FAA rules. They would be admitting to breaking the law and I don't mean misdemeanors either. Any neighbor with knowledge about the stunt could also be charged with felony obstructing of justice.

All the more intriguing WHY Lino Mailo or the neighbor haven't been arrested if this is a felony as you say, don't you think? In the video of Lino's interview I posted today, he points to which house he saw these balloons and flares came from, therefore the police and any FAA officials would only have to go to Lino, who would point them to the perpetrator, who would then be arrested...but they haven't...which is part of the mystery.



[edit on 3-5-2008 by LateApexer313]

reply to post by GirlNextDoor


Hiyah GirlNextDoor,

Thanks for corroborating hearing the jets that night, it was in the media stories but we all know what that's worth eh?

Glad to see several of the ATS'ers corroborated that as well.

Bill Knell, the man who wrote the source used in the opening post when I made this thread just posted an update to this case on his site.

5/3/08 - From Bill Knell
An expert in Pyrotechnics contacted me after reading about the flares connected to balloons story and watching the video taken of the red lights over Phoenix on April 21, 2008. Jim Blair has worked in the Pyrotechnics industry for many years. He’s participated in hundreds of Fireworks displays and has helped design and set up shows for events ranging from private affairs to citywide shows throughout the USA.

Jim says that people have no idea how difficult it would be to create an effect like the one seen over Phoenix on Monday night, April 21, 2008 using helium balloons and flares. “We’re not talking about candles and dry cleaning bags,” he explained, “it would take a lot of effort to get a set up like that off the ground. You would need a special type of balloon that was designed to hold enough helium to stay aloft for a considerable amount of time and support the flares. It would be expensive and very difficult to launch from a small backyard. I can’t believe that one person could do it by themselves.”

Read the full update by Bill Knell here:
billknell.tripod.com...


[edit on 3-5-2008 by LateApexer313]

reply to post by greeneyedleo


While I don't know what an "engine run" is, these jets were definitely flying. We don't live close enough to the base to hear them taking off or landing (or revving engines while on the ground). We only hear (and see) them when they're in the air, over our house. We live in the flight path.

We are north of the base. Typically the jets fly toward us from the south or south west and then after they pass our area (so they are north of where we live) they typically turn to the east/north east.

reply to post by LateApexer313


Hi LateApexer313.

The thing I still don't understand is why LAFB felt the need to lie. They fly in the evenings here all of the time. Hearing the jets that night was no big deal, except that I always get a shiver up my spine when the jets go by, and my husband and I commented that night how loud they were. But really, they're loud all of the time when they fly over head. So if it was just normal night training (which wouldn't raise any alarms among those who live in the flight path) why did they feel the need to say they had no aircraft in the sky that night? Unless that's their standard answer for situations like this, but it's so easily refuted. I don't get it.

I'm pretty sure they do night runs every Monday. Not sure if it's helpful or not, but if they're out this Monday, I'll try to get it on video and post it here.

[edit on 5/4/08 by GirlNextDoor]

reply to post by GirlNextDoor


How can you tell when a military spokesperson is lying? Their lips are moving

You have to laugh to keep from weeping for the future huh? Well I wouldn't doubt that, if they did jet training every night and everyone in the city knew it, they'd STILL deny they had any aircraft in the area.

Since you live in the area and have an interest in this particular topic, keep an eye/ear peeled for any details, reports, gossip etc that may not make it onto the net right away...even though I figure the media has already put the case closed stamp on it as usual, but you never know. We can always dream



[edit on 4-5-2008 by LateApexer313]

reply to post by LateApexer313


I just wanted to applaud you for your follow ups on this thread. It is really sad that the media will run with this story even though it defies logic and common sense.

reply to post by Karlhungis


Hiyah Karlhungis...

Thanks! This story really bugs me as you can tell, so I am on it until the bitter end I guess It's sad that ordinary citizens have to do the media's job, but then, I guess if you want the truth you have to dig for it on your own, like this site and everyone on it! It's a shame. I can't wait to hear the results from the member's recreation!

Just a thought guys...
besides us trying to re-create the scenario, could we maybe bombard the reporters/AZ news with email after email about them showing an ignorant and flimsy cover up? Kinda bug them a bit, rock the boat. Stating that they need to do more research before showing thousands of viewers something that doesn't add up? Of course being respectful about it.

reply to post by snookhums


Hiyah Snookhums...

Great idea but we cannot encourage anyone, on ATS, in posts, to do letter writing or e-mailing campaigns I learned that in another thread after I already sent out a bunch of e-mails...

If I lived in Phoenix, what I would do is e-mail the cops and the fire department with the Phoenix fire codes I looked up on the internet and put in earlier posts and demand to know why, since the "hoaxer" obviously broke the law and admitted it on the air for all to see, why he wasn't charged. I might get on that, even though I don't live in Phoenix.

Wow, I missed a lot of activity in this thread over the weekend!
I've been thinking a lot about this case while I was away. It seems to me that on paper, this guy's story is already disproven, due to the lift required to support the weight of a flare being more than a single helium balloon can produce.

However, though the hoax doesn't work on paper, I'm willing to try some 'real world' tests just so that we all know for sure.

I've done some price checking, and I think I can disprove the flare tied to the balloon theory in 'real world' conditions for under $10.00

I've found the three parts I need online:
1) Road Flare (normal road flare from Kragen Auto Parts)
2) Fishing Line (normal fishing line, from Pro Fishing Tackle Shop)
3) Helium Balloon (normal latex balloon filled with helium, from Party City)

I plan to pick these items up this evening after work.
I will document the experiment and post the results here (likely tomorrow, but as soon as I can).

This test is really simple. If the balloon lifts the flare, the theory succeeds (on the weight issue), if the balloon does not lift the flare, the theory fails right there, and the alleged hoaxer is lying.

If the theory by some chance succeeds (the math I did in the other thread suggests that the theory will fail, and 16 balloons will be required to lift 1 Flare) then we will need to test the 'can the system work without the flare burning through the tie line' issue.

But if the balloon won't lift the flare (as I'm predicting currently) then this guy's story will be completely disproven using the actual claimed materials.

I'll be conducting this experiment without ever lighting the flare, this test is for the weight issue only. I'll post again as soon as I have some results. Thanks for everyone's patience, it probably won't be until tomorrow before I know more.

-WFA

reply to post by WitnessFromAfar


Awesome! I would try this test too but I won't be able to get to it until this weekend because I am broke till Friday. Once I get paid I probably will do the same. Also WFA, can you video tape the tests or possibly take some pictures?

reply to post by snookhums


I'll do both, but I'll have to use my GF's camera, mine is busted. But yes for certain I'll document the experiment for all to see

-WFA

reply to post by WitnessFromAfar


this is a really good starting point. especially to see what it would take to lift 1 flare. after showing what it would take then we would have to see how to tie the flare to the fishing without it buring through. =)

reply to post by WitnessFromAfar


In the interview with the neighbor, he claims that the balloons were large balloons, and with his arms he made a diameter of about 2-3 feet. A 2 foot wide helium balloon can quite possibly lift a road flare that weighs roughly half a pound.

You may want to watch that video again to get the actual size of the balloons.