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Moscow has elected to cut off all new arms deals with communist China

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posted on May, 12 2008 @ 02:56 AM
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The panda will swallow the bear. All in good time. That is the fear.




posted on May, 12 2008 @ 08:12 AM
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Originally posted by West Coast
Which has been proven to be bogus figures.


It has only been questioned by a insignificant Washington post article which concludes that the figures are fabricated based on his perception that Chinese provincial officials lies or overstate their figures in order to gain prestige. The argument does not prove a thing apart from the usual WP rhetoric like "Bill Gertz" "deep" "meaningful" "researched" China threat analysis which reads more like a Tom Clancy novel than anything else.

What we have is a highly regarded publication from Fortune magazine and the 500+ page report from National Academies. Nevertheless Duke University published an analysis of the figures after a extensive research which indicates that China still has 200,000 more engineers even if the US figure is re-inflated to take into account other educational pathways


After an exhaustive study, researchers at Duke University also pummeled the numbers. In a December 2005 analysis, "Framing the Engineering Outsourcing Debate," they reported that the United States annually produces 137,437 engineers with at least a bachelor's degree while India produces 112,000 and China 351,537. That's more U.S. degrees per million residents than in either other nation.




Additionally, many Chinese actually come to work, and study in the US where they enjoy freedoms and high pay for their services.


Your article leads me to another article which is not the one indicated.

The best and brightest Chinese stay at the top Chinese universities while the majority of people going overseas are not the cream of the crop and go overseas for a better life. Anyway, the reverse brain drain has already begun, Time magazine and others have covered it before. The Americans are at risk giving a lot of jobs to promising immigrants in the hope they will stay there, if or when they get home sick will leave a massive gap in Americans economy of highly skilled labor. Most people dont go to the US because of political freedom but genuine reasons to learn and return home, as the recent wave of Chinese nationalism in western countries has demonstrated

Reverse brain drain threatens U.S. economy

This article talks about the trend of people going back to China from overseas, 200,000 already and the trend suggests that many more will be heading back once they receive their degree because of increased opportunities at home
www.chinadaily.com.cn...


Many western nations are starting to graduate from manufacturing based economics, and are moving into the information age based economics, where the High Tech industry's trump all


And who are going to employee the rest of the "unskilled" labor force?. The disparity between people that go to university and who dont go to university in America is very large. Once they realize that they aren't skilled labor they will need to compete with people from other countries for those positions. And by the way, you should investigate the amount of University students that India and China produce and then think whether the US education systems can compete, especially with ones trained on Americas own soil. Americans "innovation" as it were was created in no small part by immigrant genius and once conditions improve in the immigrants countries that America will be left without its competitive edge.

I doubt America in its current state will be able to bill itself as a High tech economy in the near or distant future with a education system you guys currently have. And once other third world countries begin to increase in living standards I doubt the US will have its appeal to immigrants like it once had




Furthermore, I think India has a much brighter future in contrast to China's. India, unlike China, has a sustainable growth forecast, and is not totally reliant on the US and EU economy's.


Please back up this statement with some evidence.

For one who has studied world economies I would have thought India and China were extremely similar although China has captured more of the labor intensive market to employ its population unlike Indias which is focused on employing a much smaller portion of its population through the software/outsourcing industry which will encounter the same problems China is facing when the West realises that India is taking "white" collar jobs from them the backbone of their economies. You think that India will be able to keep on progressing in its service industry like it has without Americans making a big ho-haha about how stupid foreigners are taking their jobs. Now its factory workers now imagine lawyers and journalist who are the bread and butter of the US legal system m

Chinas growth thus far has not tapped into its huge domestic market or Chinas service sector which lags behind even India as a percentage of population. The US economy is the perfect example of the market economy of supply and demand. You have people in China and America doing the same job but get paid separately because its the consumer index which are words mostly used in the stock markets but the prices are only that high because its what people are willing to pay. If you look into the GDP and all the goods and services that get produced in China and used American prices, China is already the larger economy but the market forces in China are smaller in China that in America. Hard to explain with few words and to long to go into it with many



Originally posted by West Coast
Only a small fraction of those Asian grads are qualified to work at MNC's. Plus, engineering is not the only thing that matters.


Well, I would love to seem their report and the sample size they used to gauge if or if not they were "technicians". You might seem to have faith in this publication but I am skeptical about quotes in articles from the mass-media. Anyhow, I am unable to find a copy of that report to look into their selection process and how they compared the individuals knowledge to other Americans without some expert in the field. Maybe course curriculum


Additionally, China only buys U.S. debt to devalue its currency so it can create an artificial trade deficit with the US etc.


Congress calling?

There is no such thing as the artificial trade deficit, It cost less to make a product in China and Chinese outsources dont intended to make 50% profits on its products. And you suggest "Many U.S. investors " would be happy?. Well the people willing this trade deficit are US companies, I doubt they will be laughing when report release indicate performance in all the top 500 have gone down 25%


The US still holds about the same share of the worlds GDP as it did 20 years ago, so this disproves your point.


No, It only takes into account nominal GDP not PPP which is a vastly more accurate way to measure the size of the economies to take into account the actual worth of the product or service offered. On this regard, the US is much smaller than 20 years ago




Google Video Link


And documentaries like "sicko" or "supersize me" etc.. are a indication of how Americans live?. That link you provided is a poor example of a documentary anyhow.



posted on May, 12 2008 @ 12:02 PM
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This thread is a joke.

The objective is to validate the authenticity of the OP and the span of its relevance (AF, Army, Navy, Space etc. ) not to go on some geo-social picnic here.
The analogies of brain drain and reverse brain drain are topics I've waasted too much effort on; I now look at its as a more fluid social population that flows across national boundaries; its more of a symbiotic relationship rather than a win-loss thing.



posted on May, 12 2008 @ 01:39 PM
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It would be tempting to slander all Chinese by looking at what their government and business leaders do, but that would be unfair. The video actually points out that it is the unreasonable demands of western companies in response to their consumers demand for cheap products that limits what the Chinese suppliers can do regarding wages and working conditions. In the end, who's fault is it, the people making unreasonable demands, or the people trying to meet them? Since western consumers have the greatest power in the equation, I see them (us) holding most of the blame/guilt at this time. The Chinese government, in denying Chinese workers the power they would get from unions is next in line.
I do not condone the tactics of Asian companies in stealing design patents, maintaining slave like conditions for workers, and ignoring environmental and health concerns, but, at the same time, do they have much choice at this time?
If, as I submit, we western consumers share the big part of the guilt, what do we do? I thought about boycotting all Chinese made goods, but if everyone did that it would just mean no employment at all for the workers there. We would also be stuck with the high prices we used to have to pay to maintain the over-inflated wages of our own workers. Not Acceptable either way.
I personally would be more than willing to pay a little more for goods made ethically in China or anywhere in the world, if that information could be known and verified - such as some sort of tag attached to the goods.
I already buy "fair trade" when I can, if the price isn't too outlandish, and "organic", and "free range"; and the like when I can. I would welcome labelling that certified a product was made ethically according to standards of workers rights and the environment and would pay for it. It would probably be cheaper nevertheless than what we were subjected to in the past with our old "protected" industries. The public here just needs to be educated.



posted on May, 12 2008 @ 04:27 PM
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reply to post by chinawhite
 


Chinawhite:

Are you like some Chinese political and ideological commissar? Because you seem to be spending ALOT of time trying to prove that china is the finest nation on earth. Look, it's not. As I said earlier:

"Why is the west even dealing with China at all, it's the: biggest polluter ( One new coal power plant built every week ), the worlds largest population, worlds biggest humans rights violator (After the US ), worlds largest army, their communist, AND they kill their female children."

I urge you to dispute this.



posted on May, 12 2008 @ 05:21 PM
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Originally posted by hpsfl
Are you like some Chinese political and ideological commissar? Because you seem to be spending ALOT of time trying to prove that china is the finest nation on earth. Look, it's not.


No, I'm not a Chinese agent. Why does this questions always get asked by Americans I wonder. And please point to where I suggested that China is the "finest nation on earth" like you claim.


"Why is the west even dealing with China at all, it's the: biggest polluter ( One new coal power plant built every week ), the worlds largest population, worlds biggest humans rights violator (After the US ), worlds largest army, their communist, AND they kill their female children."


I would rather look at the per capita pollution rather than the total which flatters America. Who are you to say that Chinese people arent allowed to live a lifestyle that is accustomed to the west. When the west has emissions that rival China per capita than come back to me on that one. Also, its the western countries who moved to China which has shifted the dirty industries into China to give the false impression that its not their doing which has created this situtation

Worlds largest population?. Yes, this is somehow an argument topic because?

Human rights: I would say the US is, but thats another discussion topic

their communist: Communism is a goal for a socialist nation to achieve based on a simple classless society in the form of barter trade which is close to pure democracy which has no central upper society

"they kill their female children": And that explains why China has the most females in the world?. Certain elements of Chinese society do that just like certain elements of American interbreed, but does that somehow show that all Americans kill their children?



posted on May, 12 2008 @ 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by jpm1602
The panda will swallow the bear. All in good time. That is the fear.


only an idiot would swallow that many fire crackers



posted on May, 13 2008 @ 12:33 AM
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Something interesting


China starts producing Russian Mi-171 helicopters - paper

MOSCOW, May 12 (RIA Novosti) - A manufacturing plant in southwest China has started to assemble Russian-designed Mi-171 transport helicopters, one of Russia's key arms exports, the Russian business daily Vedomosti said on Monday.

China plans to build at least 20 helicopters in 2008 with assembly kits supplied by a Russian plant in Ulan-Ude and later increase production capacity to 80 aircraft per year.

"We consider this project as the beginning of a trend to assembly Russian helicopters in China," the newspaper quoted a source in Oboronprom, which controls Russian Helicopters, a helicopter manufacturing group.

Mi-171 is an export version of the Mi-8 Hip helicopter, which is currently in production at two factories in Kazan and Ulan-Ude, fitted with more powerful turboshaft engines.

According to Vedomosti, the Lantian Helicopter Company, based in Sichuan province, has already received orders worth $42.8 million.

"The Chinese are planning to export [Mi-171] helicopters to Pakistan and Africa, which may hurt Russian exports," the source said. "In addition, the successful implementation of the project could leave Russian manufacturers short of component parts."

In 2007, Russian companies only built 120 Mi-171 helicopters, although they had orders for 150 aircraft, due to a shortage of transmissions and rotors, and according to estimates, there are no plans in the future to increase production for these components.

en.rian.ru...



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 02:22 AM
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Mr. chinawhite.




It has only been questioned by a insignificant Washington post article which concludes that the figures are fabricated based on his perception that Chinese provincial officials lies or overstate their figures in order to gain prestige.


Chinas provincial leaders have lied in the past by overstated provincial GDP growth figures, why not this?



The best and brightest Chinese stay at the top Chinese universities while the majority of people going overseas are not the cream of the crop and go overseas for a better life.


And you can confirm this how?



Anyway, the reverse brain drain has already begun


Please, present a valid argument. The evidence states contrary.


This article talks about the trend of people going back to China from overseas, 200,000 already and the trend suggests that many more will be heading back once they receive their degree because of increased opportunities at home


If that were true, then do please proceed to tell me why foreigners are not flocking to China in droves in regards to those "increased opportunities."



Once they realize that they aren't skilled labor they will need to compete with people from other countries for those positions.


80% of the US economy is generated from internal commerce, and only 20% is exposed to the world outside the US....Just saying.



And by the way, you should investigate the amount of University students that India and China produce and then think whether the US education systems can compete, especially with ones trained on Americas own soil.


17 of the worlds top 20 university's are located in America. tee hee...


Americans "innovation" as it were was created in no small part by immigrant genius and once conditions improve in the immigrants countries that America will be left without its competitive edge.


Please proceed to explain to me why the brain drain is still occurring in first world Europe?


No, It only takes into account nominal GDP not PPP which is a vastly more accurate way to measure the size of the economies to take into account the actual worth of the product or service offered. On this regard, the US is much smaller than 20 years ago


You cite PPP, I cite Nominal GDP. Both have their uses. Among developed economies, the numbers are almost identical (EU, Japan, Australia, etc.), but for developing economies, they can be far apart (as seen with China). When comparing the size of an economy relative to another one, nominal matters, as that is the metrics by which they interact with one other.



There is no such thing as the artificial trade deficit, It cost less to make a product in China and Chinese outsources dont intended to make 50% profits on its products.


Again, it is all because China devalues its currency by buying US debt.

China causes its money to fall. so as to increase the amount of investment in China and to make its exports cheap in United States. This creates a situation where American employers cannot compete against China. Because of the inability to compete, employers are either forced out of business, or are forced to give up their patriotism to the U.S. and hire foreign workers in China.

So tell me how China devaluing its own currency does not add to that trade deficit?

China won't adjust currency


And you suggest "Many U.S. investors " would be happy?. Well the people willing this trade deficit are US companies, I doubt they will be laughing when report release indicate performance in all the top 500 have gone down 25%


Allowing this trade deficit to continue to grow, will create a unsustainable condition where trillions of dollars of the GDP are transferred to other countries. That causes a lowering of the standard of living, an increase in personal debt, slower wage growth, an increase in government debt. If china were to start selling of US debt, it would slowly start to Improve the stock market, boost home prices, increase consumer spending, as well as increase job growth.


And documentaries like "sicko" or "supersize me" etc.. are a indication of how Americans live?. That link you provided is a poor example of a documentary anyhow.

The two are incomparable. The only thing they have in common is that they are documentaries.


[edit on 14-5-2008 by West Coast]



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 04:34 AM
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Originally posted by West Coast
Chinas provincial leaders have lied in the past by overstated provincial GDP growth figures, why not this?


"Individual" officials have lied in the past. Those leaders have thus been demoted or "worse" it still doesn't make your point valid that they somehow have a "Chinese" tradition to overstate achievements. On the other hand, the Washington post has lied or overstated information they report on china. In this case they have claimed this or suggested that without any proof which has no basis to then be quoted for information


And you can confirm this how?


People I know, some Chinese government workers and students have been been selected to go to Beijing (two from a village only) students first hand knowledge. Chinese students see Beijing university as their top priority to study and its a honor to go there, it guarantees a position in the Chinese system which is roughly like an aristocrat in Chinese society. If they had the choice between Beijing or Yale they would choose Beijing because of the prestige it holds in China, dont get me wrong but Yale and Harvard are two very admired schools but Beijing or Tsinghua have a higher position to Chinese. Unlike the west where intellectuals are portrayed as dim-witted they are admired and respected by Chinese people who value education


Please, present a valid argument. The evidence states contrary.


You mean the 200,000 figure of expatriates I posted?, Is that not evidence enough?




If that were true, then do please proceed to tell me why foreigners are not flocking to China in droves in regards to those "increased opportunities."


Increased opportunities for Chinese people not foreigners. Obviously if you want to work you China you need to speak mandarin and its quite obvious to me that mandarin is not the second language of most people around. The Chinese government targets people who have studied in West and give them grants to set up their own research labs. Their RnD budget is the 2nd or 3rd largest in the world so promising young Chinese are able to get more out of being in China than the West.


80% of the US economy is generated from internal commerce, and only 20% is exposed to the world outside the US


And that 20% drives that 80%. Without those people and their outside incomes there would be no service industry to cater for them. Money does not get recycled in a society so the rich who own those services keep hoarding their money while the "poor" middle class consumers keep consuming which leads to a big imbalance. You can't run a economy in the global market just with the domestic industry but there are a lot of sub-industries which revolve around the export market. Logistics, office workers, the food industry etc which is "domestic" but also "foreign



17 of the worlds top 20 university's are located in America. tee hee..


So the University of Melbourne is there but not Monash??? The ANU is there???. I agree with the top 10 universities (not in that particular order) but the list is complied by a bunch of idiots although their methodology seems sound. I bet the boys from Yale would be sieving over the fact that places like Princeton or Colombia are ahead of them on that list. I know a few who would be if you told them that, the disgrace of being behind Harvard and then Princeton. LOL

And my point was about the "information age based economies" you talk about and how the American economy cant sustained this new type of economy whilst there is only a small percent of the American population who receives a higher education. America might have the best universities but they go to the small percentage of people smart enough or go to foreign students who show more promise than Americans own students which challenges your point about America moving up in the world and validates my point about America no being able to compete with the world economy in manufacturing


When comparing the size of an economy relative to another one, nominal matters, as that is the metrics by which they interact with one other.


Yet you cite "currency manipulation"? Oh, thats PPP and I thought that was important to gauge the actual cost of the good because China has artificially kept its currency low?


You can compare market trends with nominal values to gauge their market values but to compare economies you use PPP to accurately define the size of the goods and services your industry produces


Again, it is all because China devalues its currency by buying US debt.


By buying US debt?

While I would have thought the peg it keeps to the basket of world currencies was the big hoo-haa that congress moans about. What does buying US debt have to do with devaluing its currency?

So your going to dismiss this?
"There is no such thing as the artificial trade deficit, It cost less to make a product in China and Chinese outsources dont intended to make 50% profits on its products."

I can obviously see where you are getting your argument from. Even if China strengthens its currency against America you honesty think that American manufactures can compete with Chinese?. You have parity in currencies but Chinese workers get paid 1/40th of a American and raw materials/rent/taxes are about 1/10th of Americas or less. Thats what the manufacture lobby wants people to believe that they can somehow compete with China's. American exports aren't going to get any better because they are expensive and the quality is not as good as Japans or Germans which pride themselves on quality products unlike GM or GE



If china were to start selling of US debt, it would slowly start to Improve the stock market, boost home prices, increase consumer spending, as well as increase job growth.


How? How? how? and How?

Your basing this on the wrong conclusion your created that selling American debt will make the Yuan devalue. The Value is static not because of the amount of greenback or treasury bonds China has but because of the peg China keeps on its currency to the basket of world currencies like the Yen, Euro etc. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the American debt China has.

Making China stop buying US dollars would mean that the US dollar as the world reserve currency loses its consumer confidence and people wont want to accept US dollars because of the debt America has incurred from its indulgence in spending money. You know the fundamental thing about money?. You know the part where it is bartered from goods to sell at the market, the US dollar does not have enough gold to back up its currency if everyone in the world wanted their goods back they traded these meaningless IOUs for. I bet the OPEC nations would also stop using US dollars to trade in so the US can't just print money to cover cost so the Euro will raise and the dollar will fall.

So No improve[d] the stock market, No boost [in] home prices, Definitely no increase [in] consumer spending, and no increase [in] job growth aswell.



The two are incomparable.


While the other two have been given numerous accolades, the one you posted is a random youtube/google searched independent documentary which does not have any honor apart from being put on youtube



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by West Coast
Chinas provincial leaders have lied in the past by overstated provincial GDP growth figures, why not this?


If anything GDP figures have been understated to try and control inflation. GDP is probably higher than offically recognized.



The best and brightest Chinese stay at the top Chinese universities while the majority of people going overseas are not the cream of the crop and go overseas for a better life.


And you can confirm this how?


It is mostly true. Many Chinese students who come to America to study are from wealthy families, not necessarily the brightest. Kind of like GWB going to Yale.


The evidence states contrary.


What evidence is that ?



If that were true, then do please proceed to tell me why foreigners are not flocking to China in droves in regards to those "increased opportunities."


Actually a hell of alot of foreigners are moving to China. I met people there during business from all contonents of the world. It does take a special type of person to live in China, you have to be willing to accept a new culture. Most Americans can't or at the very least are intimidated.



80% of the US economy is generated from internal commerce, and only 20% is exposed to the world outside the US....Just saying.


Figures ? The US sucks in resources from the rest of the world to fuel its economy.



Americans "innovation" as it were was created in no small part by


You cite PPP, I cite Nominal GDP. Both have their uses. Among developed economies, the numbers are almost identical (EU, Japan, Australia, etc.), but for developing economies, they can be far apart (as seen with China). When comparing the size of an economy relative to another one, nominal matters, as that is the metrics by which they interact with one other.


Various business and economic journals cite China's economy becoming the worlds largest by 2020-2025.



Again, it is all because China devalues its currency by buying US debt.


Actually it's China trying to prop up the $US so the Wal Marts of the world can still by Chinese exports.


China causes its money to fall. so as to increase the amount of investment in China and to make its exports cheap in United States. This creates a situation where American employers cannot compete against China. Because of the inability to compete, employers are either forced out of business, or are forced to give up their patriotism to the U.S. and hire foreign workers in China.


American employers cannot compete against China because by and large Americans are incredibly lazy compared to the Chinese. It's why your economy has to be propped up by illegal workers from Mexico - cheap hardworking labour.


So tell me how China devaluing its own currency does not add to that trade deficit?


China doesn't devalue the its money. It the fall of the $US against all major world currencies. Even though China is trying to prop it up.



If china were to start selling of US debt, it would slowly start to Improve the stock market, boost home prices, increase consumer spending, as well as increase job growth.


Selling it to who ? No one wants to buy US debt. Also dumping the $US would put the US economy into freefall.



posted on May, 14 2008 @ 04:27 PM
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reply to post by chinawhite
 


Stop proving my point, Mr. Chinawhite! Mil-17's are a russian product. Designed by Russian (No wait, Soviets) in the late 1970's, it represents the very finest of 1970's aerodynamics and flight systems. It's been in production for 28 years, and now, the Chinese are going to start selling their clones to African countries. Any indiginously designed rotorcraft in PLAAF inventory right now?

BTW also from that article, which you mysteriously left out:




At the same time, some Russian experts believe it is better to allow the Chinese to manufacture helicopters under license rather than sit and wait until China develops its own version, modeled on Russian designs, Vedomosti said.


en.rian.ru...



[edit on 14-5-2008 by hpsfl]



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by hpsfl
Stop proving my point, Mr. Chinawhite!


Your point was that Chinas armed forces "ENTIRELY consists of Soviet surplus". Now how is this supposed to prove that point when these relatively modern design is being PRODUCED in China NOT Soviet surplus equipment.



The reason why I posted the article was to challenge the opening posters article contending that Moscow had cut off all new arms deals with the country. Your reply full of inaccuracies is not collaborated by the article


Designed by Russian (No wait, Soviets) in the late 1970's, it represents the very finest of 1970's aerodynamics and flight systems.


Is this statement meant to be a joke?. The Mi-171 is a 1990's created aircraft which was first seen in 1989. The versions in production now use the most modern guidence, flight and engine technologies on the free market. Its American analogue is the Black Hawk helicopters which are in no way obsolete for the task they were design to do


BTW also from that article, which you mysteriously left out:


I didn't know I had left that article out. I actually was originally going to only quote the first three paragraphs a per the rules on this forum but it seemed quite short so I decided to add three paragraph lengths instead.



posted on May, 15 2008 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by chinawhite
 


Okay, so exaggerated my point about it entierly consists of soviet surplus. You win.

However, what I'm trying to say is that the PLA and PLAAF is lacking in indiginously designed equipment. A staggering majority either originates from Russia/CIS nations, or is an indiginous reproduction, usually with some minor powerplant modifications.

Just some quick calculations I came up with:


Of China's fighter/fighter-bomber force, 3 are indiginously designed and produced (30%), while 7 are imports/modifcations/clones. (70%)

Of China's support aircraft (Fixed Wing: H. Bombers, Transports, Trainers), 3 are indiginously designed and produced (27%), while 8 are imports/modifcations/clones. (73%)

Of China's Rotorcraft force: 9 are imports/modifcations/clones (100%)

Active PLAAF inventory

Of China's MBT/LBT/APC's: 2/3 of China's MBT's are Type 59's (Soviet T-54) 1/3 are new production, indiginously designed Type 96/98/99

PLA Armour

Am I correct in this observation, oh wise one?

[edit on 15-5-2008 by hpsfl]



posted on May, 21 2008 @ 01:58 AM
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reply to post by hpsfl
 


yo buddy.. chinese dont kill infant girls...
that's some indians and muslims cultural stuff... dont mix that up with other stuff.. killing infants are strictly illigal in china

and how many military planes and tanks are indigenous to canada?

basically.....
......O%


seriously i dont see why is the capability of mass producing weapons something to be proud of.. unless u are very interested in killing others..


PS. communists or not is just a matter of namings.. the point here is not what the government should be named or labelled, but rather, are the citizens satisfied and happy with what the government is doing.

[edit on 5/21/2008 by warset]



posted on May, 21 2008 @ 02:11 AM
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This is good news. This will make the region alot more stable. I think someday if China every leaves it's communist roots it will be the top country in the world. The largest population in the world is in China and there technologicla advances are only second to the USA.



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 04:33 PM
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reply to post by rogue1
 


Well, I have been following the discussion with great interest.
Without doubt, every country has its own set of problems (even Paradise did!
)
What we need to see are the inherent weaknesses & strengths.
While China suffers from being too "dictatorial" with its own people and to most of the world (Tibet, Road to mount Everest, exceedingly tight one child norm being just a few examples), US cannot be given high marks either (Iraq war alone is enough)
However, that there are signs of growth in South East Asian region is a well acknowledged fact, recognised even by the US media.
Infra structurally, even now no one can beat the US. However, there are signs of trouble:
1. Top academic positions in American Universities are not just linked to the academics, but based a lot on the amount of funding the top professors can get for the Univ. Compare that with what China/India/Singapore are doing.
2. Healthcare, Law & Order, Legal systems and Cost of higher education need to be URGENTLY rationalised in the US. Stupendous health care bills, Life draining legal fees, Irrational compensations are all driving the US economy down a very dangerous road. If China & India can perform hundreds of thousands of Eye Surgeries with Lens Implants for LESS THAN 10 US$, and similar costs for Caeserian Deliveries, with almost Zero waiting periods, US healthcare system administrators definitely need to work hard. If South East Asian Countries can put deserving students through Government Sponsored Engineering & Medical Colleges (They are the better than the private ones) at less than 500 US$ ANNUAL Fee, then US Academicians need to definitely take notice.
No nation can grow with an unhealthy work force, which cannot even send their children to higher education. US is a Great Nation, however, while its lay people are working as hard as the rest of the world, its administrators have become complacent, and non feeling for their own people and for the rest of the world.
Get good administrators and there isn't a doubt -- it shall remain a Great nation for years to come.
Eu Gee



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by hpsfl

Cuba-Communist
China-Communist

The US does not trade with Cuba at all, while China has they say in America's economy?

[edit on 3-5-2008 by hpsfl]


Actually the US is the largest supplier of food to Cuba, and its 6th biggest trading partner.



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 07:02 PM
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reply to post by firepilot
 


Nice job picking up the food fact, I didn't know that! You are, however wrong in respects with Cuba being the 6th trading partner.

According to the US Trade Balance Cuba is ranked the 116th trading partner.

You are, however correct in stating that the USA is Cuba's largest supplier of food, supported here.

[edit on 10-6-2008 by hpsfl]



posted on Jun, 10 2008 @ 10:11 PM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
"Individual" officials have lied in the past. Those leaders have thus been demoted or "worse" it still doesn't make your point valid that they somehow have a "Chinese" tradition to overstate achievements. On the other hand, the Washington post has lied or overstated information they report on china. In this case they have claimed this or suggested that without any proof which has no basis to then be quoted for information


Tell me which province was the fastest growing province in China for 2007.
It should have been Bejing, who is about to host the Olympics, but it wasnt.



People I know, some Chinese government workers and students have been been selected to go to Beijing (two from a village only) students first hand knowledge.


That is understood, however, that is not a very refutable source.


Unlike the west where intellectuals are portrayed as dim-witted they are admired and respected by Chinese people who value education


I understand this, and I agree with your conclusion. However, those "dim-witts" are usually the ones who often end up controlling the country.



Increased opportunities for Chinese people not foreigners.


China will have to attract non Chinese "Talent" if it is to compete with America who attracts people not just from inside the US, but from all around the world.


Their RnD budget is the 2nd or 3rd largest in the world so promising young Chinese are able to get more out of being in China than the West.


China has the second largest budget. However, if you count the EU as a nation, then it is third. However, a great portion of those R&D $ actually goes into toy designs.




And that 20% drives that 80%. Without those people and their outside incomes there would be no service industry to cater for them.


The US is a very self sustaining nation, the world is a mere convenience to us. Small businesses is what drives the vast majority of US economy. The information economy, along with consumer spending is what truly makes the US second to none.



So the University of Melbourne is there but not Monash??? The ANU is there???. I agree with the top 10 universities (not in that particular order) but the list is complied by a bunch of idiots although their methodology seems sound. I bet the boys from Yale would be sieving over the fact that places like Princeton or Colombia are ahead of them on that list. I know a few who would be if you told them that, the disgrace of being behind Harvard and then Princeton. LOL


Ive provided a refutable source while you have not. Please provide refutable sources, this will help improve your argument.


And my point was about the "information age based economies" you talk about and how the American economy cant sustained this new type of economy whilst there is only a small percent of the American population who receives a higher education.


Erm..you are aware that it is quite common for US students to attend college right after high school? This is not the 1970's.



America might have the best universities but they go to the small percentage of people smart enough or go to foreign students who show more promise than Americans own students which challenges your point about America moving up in the world and validates my point about America no being able to compete with the world economy in manufacturing


Same could be said about any nation, even China.


That is an assumption by you that is not a very well supported. I would like to ask where you are getting your figures from so we can further that debate, or am I right in thinking that you are using and unverified opinion?



Yet you cite "currency manipulation"? Oh, thats PPP and I thought that was important to gauge the actual cost of the good because China has artificially kept its currency low?


Correct! However, international trade is conducted in nominal, not in PPP terms.


You can compare market trends with nominal values to gauge their market values but to compare economies you use PPP to accurately define the size of the goods and services your industry produces


As I said, both have there purposes. However, PPP is useful for measuring per capita prosperity, where a loaf of bread in China costs less than in the US. But this however tells us nothing of the size of the total economy, which could be more accurately measured in commodities like oil or gold.

Per capita GDP also comes into play when dealing with this. In regards to per capita GDP, the US surpasses any other country that has a population greater than 10 million people. This means that the US is too large to rely solely on being a tax haven or tourist destination for GDP generation.


Again, it is all because China devalues its currency by buying US debt.


By buying US debt?
While I would have thought the peg it keeps to the basket of world currencies was the big hoo-haa that congress moans about. What does buying US debt have to do with devaluing its currency?


"China's currency reserves are nearing half of China's total gross domestic product," Mears notes. "Rather than tying up that much of its economy in low-interest official holdings -- primarily in U.S. dollars -- China could be using those funds to build internal economic strength. China continues to buy dollars to keep its currency suppressed below market values in order to fuel export-led growth, but it's high time for this to stop. It's distorting global trade flows and distorting China's economy."
Source



Making China stop buying US dollars would mean that the US dollar as the world reserve currency loses its consumer confidence and people wont want to accept US dollars because of the debt America has incurred from its indulgence in spending money. You know the fundamental thing about money?. You know the part where it is bartered from goods to sell at the market, the US dollar does not have enough gold to back up its currency if everyone in the world wanted their goods back they traded these meaningless IOUs for. I bet the OPEC nations would also stop using US dollars to trade in so the US can't just print money to cover cost so the Euro will raise and the dollar will fall.


China holds very little US debt as a percentage of GDP, furthermore as a percentage of GDP, the US debt is in quite good shape, this in contrast to many other first world nations who are not nearly in the same qualitative state as the US per debt to GDP % ratio.

[edit on 10-6-2008 by West Coast]



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