Originally posted by Masonic Light
Couple of things here:

It has always been my contention that Freemasonry admits only men because it is a celebration of the masculine (Osirian) mysteries. It's not that women "aren't good enough". It's just that the mysteries of Isis, which celebrate the Divine Feminine, are different than the Osirian male mysteries.

This may be so - as a Wicca Initiate (though long past those days) I grasp the differences between the Male and the Female energies. But I also know that both can be channeled by either sex. It's a matter of focus.

In our rituals I had the opportunity to play the roles of both High Priestess and High Priest. As long as a society bases its membership on the physical manifestation of flesh, and not on that which can be generated by the spirit entity, I am highly distrustful. It is prejudiced.

As for "other avenues..." I understand that there are a great many, and I have explored a number. But the fact that I can't join ONLY because I hold this form in the material realm makes me... Well... Disgusted, I guess.

And, as I said, distrustful.

[edit on 5/1/2008 by Amaterasu]

Originally posted by Amaterasu

Just because you spend time with someone does not mean they are giving you a clear view of who they really are.Just sayin'.

Hello Amaterasu.

Spending time with someone will at least give me more insight into their life than somone who has never spent time with them will have, wouldnt you think?

Often, when I see two people engage in heated fight I think: "They should meet face-to-face, have a cup of coffee/tea together and things may look differently".

When I am faced with outrageous accusiations of who I am and what I do...while merely being a normal, every-day guy who sits at his computer typing and drinking coke...

...I have to ask myself: "Are these people insane? Whats wrong with them?".

Maybe (just a hypothesis) you were being used as a frontman. Someone who looked and saw idyllic behavior and would report this to the world...
Please avoid twisting words here. It reduces your credibility.

They must be using millions of people as frontmen then.

No. I reach out and catch a glimpse of a field. I have learned what the data mean, and how to explore at will. Though it is likely the basis upon which intuition manifests, it is much greater than that. "Channeling" is a whole different critter.

My field-explorations give me different information. I wonder why that is?

Not at all. I am ambivalent about you. It is unclear whether you are motivated to prove this because you believe it or because it is an agenda piece.

Neither nor. Im sick of the libel being waged against decent fellow humans.
And frankly, what I read in the anti-masonic books mentioned earlier and reality dont match up. And thats just...sinister.

It may be an unwitting behavior on your part (as my hypothesis suggests might be the case). But I can only give probabilities on that, and cannot state that those probabilities as I see them reach much higher than 50%, and that is then something that is up in the air.

I´ll give you credit for being willing to discuss this with me. However, please explain to me what you mean by my behaviour being unwitting.

Thank you for the list. Pretty vague, even in the OP. But I'll accept that.

Vague?

The medieval mass-genocide of herbal healers, scientists and spiritual-thinkers on behalf of unproven conspiracy theories and the mass-genocide of world-war-two on behalf of unproven conspiracy-theories and the "red-revolutionary" mass-deportation of intellgent people on behalf of unproven conspiracy-theories is not vague.

If you want vague...pick up some of the anti-masonic books I mentioned.

Originally posted by futureblind
im sure you would agree that the average catholic with the love and trust for their great leader the pope would have every idea of whats really going on behind closed doors, as they pledge their devotion (and cash) to the causes and 'truths' that he sees fit to indoctrinate the church with.

Yes.

if you honestly think comparing books to your experience as a low level mason

What do you mean by "low level" mason?

and the fact that another book tells you that they killed 50 000 masons under Hitler is a solid grounds for dismissing the conspiracy theories against the order then continue with your smarmy chuckles with your fellow masons on the thread. im not anti masonic but your self assured irritating manner is making it easier.

Im sorry if I irritate you. I mean to understand "the other side", which is why I read those anti-masonic books.

But the tolerance I am supposed to be having as a mason is wearing thin.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Amaterasu

Just because you spend time with someone does not mean they are giving you a clear view of who they really are.Just sayin'.

Hello Amaterasu.

Spending time with someone will at least give me more insight into their life than somone who has never spent time with them will have, wouldnt you think?

It would give you insight into anything they reveal, yes. No argument there. My point is that all is not necessarily revealed. (Note the word "necessarily.")

I have not said you have no clue. Only that it is POSSIBLE that, by merely meeting them, you may not have a complete picture.

When I am faced with outrageous accusiations of who I am and what I do...while merely being a normal, every-day guy who sits at his computer typing and drinking coke...

...I have to ask myself: "Are these people insane? Whats wrong with them?".

And I can relate to that. I'm just saying I sense a dark core, "lizard-hearted" I call them, surrounded by many who are not dark in their intent. You are not of that core, I wager. And the core lies to the outer structure. Wouldn't you if you had a dark agenda but wanted a light facade?

Maybe (just a hypothesis) you were being used as a frontman. Someone who looked and saw idyllic behavior and would report this to the world...

They must be using millions of people as frontmen then.

In a sense, they do. Though millions have not met them, the ones who are not dark are shown what they are supposed to see, to pass on to the ones below. And those below pick that up and on it goes down the ranks.

No. I reach out and catch a glimpse of a field. I have learned what the data mean, and how to explore at will. Though it is likely the basis upon which intuition manifests, it is much greater than that. "Channeling" is a whole different critter.

My field-explorations give me different information. I wonder why that is?

Vested interest creating blindness? Just throwing out a possibility. I have no idea whether you are capable of walking that realm, or not. But if you are, there are several explanations I can come up with.

Not at all. I am ambivalent about you. It is unclear whether you are motivated to prove this because you believe it or because it is an agenda piece.

Neither nor. Im sick of the libel being waged against decent fellow humans.
And frankly, what I read in the anti-masonic books mentioned earlier and reality dont match up. And thats just...sinister.

I agree that there is a mismatch between the dark ones, the lizard-hearts, and the rank and file. I have yet to read much about the claims these others make, but I am going to believe that they may have generalized overly much.

I can see that many are good of heart, Human-hearted, if you will. But I also see that core...

It may be an unwitting behavior on your part (as my hypothesis suggests might be the case). But I can only give probabilities on that, and cannot state that those probabilities as I see them reach much higher than 50%, and that is then something that is up in the air.

I´ll give you credit for being willing to discuss this with me. However, please explain to me what you mean by my behaviour being unwitting.

Not so much your behavior, per se, as what information you are given to bring back to others. Again, hypothetically, you could have been brought into "normal" houses, told glowing things, and sent on your way, and meanwhile are never shown the "black room in back..." That kind of thing.

I will admit, you personally may never have gotten all the way to this core. You may have dealt with Human-hearted individuals. I don't have that detail of vision.

If I can find a book or three for free, I'll read them. I would buy them, but right now I am looking for work and have not a quarter to my name (I do have a couple or three pennies).

Skyfloating and other Masons,

It's the secrecy. Get rid of the secrecy and you get rid of the problem. You bring it on yourselves.

To the outside world it looks like you are either hiding something illegal, immoral or evil or it appears you are practicing discrimination; which you are. Unless any man can join, it is discriminatory whether you redefine the word or not. Again, it's your own fault.

I have never bought into the wild accusations, even though I could name many Mason's I know who are disgusting human beings and crooked businessmen.

I'm sure most of you are great people, but you combine the three factors, secrecy, exclusionary membership practices and those among you who have wronged others; you get what you are experiencing.

Secrecy and exclusionary practices never leads to anything good or general acceptance by society. I quite frankly know too many Masons to not be aware that many Masons consider themselves superior. It is inevitable in the same way Police get trapped into that mindset.

Any time a group separates itself from the rest of society socially, it is a fact of life that it's members will start to consider themselves superior to others. You can't stop that, no matter what you say.

The way you guys gang up on people here does not help your cause either. It's so obvious it's almost humorous. I believe a wise person would just ignore those threads that bother them. To others it looks like proof of some kind of conspiracy and I'm surprised you guys can't seem to see that.

Originally posted by AmaterasuSurely the lower ranks are mostly powerless. It is in the upper realms where power starts to flow. I seek to look at things from that height.

That's where you're really wrong. If you are a former Wicca practitioner, I would think you'd already know that. Everything Masonry can teach you about how to best govern your life, your company, your country or the world is taught in the symbolism explained in the first 3 degrees. It's all laid out pretty clearly, just up to you to implement it.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
Unless any man can join, it is discriminatory whether you redefine the word or not.

You're absolutely correct.

1. Masonry doesn't allow atheists. I have more than a few atheist friends, and I sometimes take issue with that particular requirement, but its there nonetheless.
   
2. Masonry doesn't allow women. Naturally, it's easy for that to offend some people, male or female.
   
3. Masonry doesn't allow criminals. Personally, I think that's a pretty good discrimination to make, but I suppose there are some former convicts who've truly reformed who might benefit from its teachings, and I'm sorry they aren't offered that opportunity.
   

It would be nice to remove any or all of those restrictions, though it is not yet within my power to do so. If such a motion ever came up in a vote I was privileged to, I would give both sides of the argument my highest attention before making a decision.

Or were you inferring some other form of discrimination I haven't covered here?

First Skyfloating, the second post you made in this thread shows a Masonic Memorial or such. Where is that? I read somewhere it was in Isreal.

Second

Notice how all the Masons have symbolic/meaningful avatars here on ATS. This is because they speak in symbols and numbers.

From the first Page... So what do you think my Avatar means?

They'd rather "leave" anything that doesn't make Masonry sound awesome. But not too awesome, of course ... anytime people talk about what happens behind closed doors with blacked-out windows at lodges, the ATS Masons always say, "oh, we're just planning our next pancake breakfast."

That is why we are very open and explain our bad eggs. Such as what is posted on Masonicinfo.

It's the secrecy. Get rid of the secrecy and you get rid of the problem. You bring it on yourselves.

Then why don't College Fraternities get this type of flak? Or Sororites?
How about the Knights of Columbus?
Elks?
Lions?
I am quite sure we can name many many more organizations that keep things secret.

How about the Boardrooms of Privately held companies that legally do not have to publish the minutes of their meetings.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by AmaterasuSurely the lower ranks are mostly powerless. It is in the upper realms where power starts to flow. I seek to look at things from that height.

That's where you're really wrong. If you are a former Wicca practitioner, I would think you'd already know that. Everything Masonry can teach you about how to best govern your life, your company, your country or the world is taught in the symbolism explained in the first 3 degrees. It's all laid out pretty clearly, just up to you to implement it.

I'll accept that what you say is true, insofar as the first 3 degrees' teachings go. (Are they on the web? Or do I have to have a penis to find out what they are?)

But I will say this. What is taught at lower levels may or may not be reflected in upper level teachings. I am reminded of Scientology, which has pretty mundane teachings going on at the newbie level, but get progressively weirder and "out there" as you get closer to the "top" (and I place that in quotes, because, as far as I can tell, the "top" is not really the top. Those at the top don't believe the crud they are indoctrinating others into believing.

So. Again, without having any data but others' words, combined with the fact that my physical manifestation tends to preclude high level access, I can only speculate.