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The very real conspiracy against Freemasonry

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posted on May, 4 2008 @ 12:27 AM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Now...where´s the MasonicLight vs. FreightTomsen debate?


That's what I want to know! What happened to freight tomsen? I thought he accepted the challenge?


Here's an update on me getting served.

Intrepid U2U'ed:

Is this topic cool with you:

"Masonry is a 2 level organization and it's upper workings are unknown to regular Masons."


To which I replied:

"Masonry isn't a two-level organization, it's a multi-level organization. The higher you are the more you know and the more control you have over other members. The only way to be promoted is through invitation from higher members, so in this way, the highest members dictate the entire pyramid. Perhaps you can reword your topic to accomidate."

Then after seeing Ameratsu and Rockpuck's debate, I changed my mind. Ameratsu is doing a wonderful job on her side and Rockpuck is also doing a great job on his. That is all that will happen with me and MasonicLight. And to be honest, I would rather concentrate my time and energy on other forums, because the Secret Society forum on ATS is completley run by Secret Society members. Debating with them and getting all caught up in meaningless competition is just what they want/need. It's more important to spread the truth to people who are FREE to listen, not debate it with those you're exposing.

So I wrote back to Intrepid:

"To be honest, there's nothing to debate. It's a fact that Masonry is structured this way and I've changed my mind on the debate anyway. You can tell Masonic Light, or I'll tell him on the boards if it comes up, that his amazing wisdom and knowledge of Freemasonry far surpasses that of my own. He is by far my intellectual superior and I accept that I Got Served."




posted on May, 4 2008 @ 03:02 AM
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yea after a few pages i saw this was a warthread, people will see it from their perspective, nobody wants to think they are the villain just as much as everyone wants to point fingers. Regardless I learned far more about lower level masons because of it. I saw a few things i could have commented on on both sides but i figured my JFK speech link says everything i need to say, plus i got kinda irritated by the fact that people were denying its existence, so i figured id put that one to bed and then do the same with myself.

I think people do fine defining themselves without words, actions always speak louder then words, mason or not, the man that does the right thing is my friend and ally regardless. When I was young I needed glasses and my parents couldnt afford them, it was a local shriner group that paid for them.



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 05:12 AM
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reply to post by freight tomsen
 


well freight. Im sorry to hear about your decision. A while back I chose to debate the pro side of the "ancient astronaut theory" against someone.

I lost that debate...but I learned a lot from it. I learned where my theory had holes but I also learned what things cannot be refuted and which lines of the theory I should pursue. It helped me sharpen my pen, so to speak.

You´ve authored an entire book on the subject so you should be able to bring forth a strong case on behalf of your side. You would probably loose the debate due to lack of evidence...but you`d improve your skills as an author.

Although I lost that debate, I still believe in my theory, btw.

[edit on 4-5-2008 by Skyfloating]



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 05:36 AM
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Originally posted by freight tomsen
It's more important to spread the truth to people who are FREE to listen, not debate it with those you're exposing.


in other words, you prefer people that will read what you type, and accept it without question.



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 06:01 AM
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Originally posted by scientist

Originally posted by freight tomsen
It's more important to spread the truth to people who are FREE to listen, not debate it with those you're exposing.


in other words, you prefer people that will read what you type, and accept it without question.


No dude, what it means is I spent 2 years of 10 hour days researching/writing The Atlantean Conspiracy. It is well-sourced, I read/quoted over 300 books, but MasonicLight and others insist that I provide no sources/references. I'm tired of hearing this, as though I (and other conspiracy researchers) just try to find/make up facts to fit with our conspiratorial view.

I wish I WAS full of $h1t and all these ATS Masons were just regular guys interested in conspiracy. But the truth is the troop of Masons on the SS forum everyday are just here in an attempt to defend their crooked organization.



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 07:54 AM
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I understand how people are fooled by the benevolent exterior of freemasonery. People are also fooled into thinking tha the catholic church is christian. Satan underlies both organisations



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 08:00 AM
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Originally posted by freight tomsen
It is well-sourced, I read/quoted over 300 books, but MasonicLight and others insist that I provide no sources/references.


Just to put that context: I didn't say you provided no sources. I said your sources were not credible.

Example: I write a book claiming that a 15 ft. tall ladybug walked down Broadway waving a Confederate flag and singing Stevie Wonder's "Superstitious". You then write a book making the same claim, using mine as reference. OK, you've got your reference and source, but that says nothing about its credibility.

For a source to be credible, it must pass the test of unbiased and academic peer review. Your sources cannot pass that test.

Just a couple of examples:

1. You claim that high level Masons at international Freemasonry headquarters require Masons to submit papers, and their viewpoints in them determine their advancement.

This claim is false. There is no such thing as "international Freemasonry headquarters". While Masons are encouraged to research Masonic topics, and deliver papers and/or speeches on them at Masonic meetings, it's certainly not required, and has nothing to do with advancement, which is freely given by application.

2. You claim the O.T.O. are Masons. They are not. I am a former associate member of O.T.O., and am well acquainted with that organization, its history, and government. The O.T.O. uses a degree system similar to some rites of Freemasonry, but it is not necessary to be a Mason in order to join the O.T.O., and Freemasonry does not recognize O.T.O. degrees as Masonic. Neither, by the way, does O.T.O.

3. You claim that Masonic government is hierarchical. While all governments are hierarchical in a certain sense, Masonic government is democratic. Masonic officials are elected for specified terms by the majority vote of the general membership. After their terms have expired, they go back to being regular members.



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 08:01 AM
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Originally posted by freight tomsen
Then after seeing Ameratsu and Rockpuck's debate, I changed my mind. Ameratsu is doing a wonderful job on her side and Rockpuck is also doing a great job on his. That is all that will happen with me and MasonicLight.


Being a tad presumptuous? How do you know that either of you will present and promote an arguement that will be well received?


And to be honest, I would rather concentrate my time and energy on other forums, because the Secret Society forum on ATS is completley run by Secret Society members. Debating with them and getting all caught up in meaningless competition is just what they want/need.


Last time I checked the owners of the site ran this and all forums. Many members were warned and some banned-and quite a few were Masons-during Twitchy's 'Masonic obelsik thread' period. You have also not seemed very reticent about confronting people on this forum joining with others who are of the same mindset as yourself, it would seem your rather enjoy the confrontation and attention.


It's more important to spread the truth to people who are FREE to listen, not debate it with those you're exposing.


What you are spreading is most assuredly not the truth. I was very much looking forward to your fallacies being exposed in the upcoming debate but sadly you do not share my sentiments. Perhaps you will change your mind and accept the challange pro-offered and stand your 'facts' against the opinion of your Above Top Secret peers.


So I wrote back to Intrepid:

"To be honest, there's nothing to debate. It's a fact that Masonry is structured this way and I've changed my mind on the debate anyway. You can tell Masonic Light, or I'll tell him on the boards if it comes up, that his amazing wisdom and knowledge of Freemasonry far surpasses that of my own. He is by far my intellectual superior and I accept that I Got Served."


There is always a bit of truth in humor-even sarcasm, its lowest manifestation.



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 09:53 AM
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Intellectual Laziness

Apart from organized efforts (conspiracy) against freemasons, much of it also seems to be intelectual laziness on the part of the anti-masonic book authors.

I recall a pre-masonic time, as a teenager, that I read about and pondered upon certain conspiracy-theories because I was too lazy to actually do the research, check the sources and explain the world in a different way. The explanation was so simple and easy I could finally rest in the myth that its "them evil masons" running the world and that thats why the world is so looking soo bad.



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by Amaterasu
 


You guys are having a great debate in the debate forum by the way. Keep it up



A question in context of this thread:

What is your relationship to people in positions of authority?


Mine? Only that some would suggest that I am at their whim, a slave or servant, when in fact it should be the other way around.

Glad you have been enjoying the debate. [smile]



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 10:27 AM
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reply to post by K.G.B.
 


AWESOME poetry, K.G.B. Thank you for that. I have to agree wholeheartedly.

I keep wondering if there's a tune to those words... [smile]



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 11:19 AM
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reply to post by Amaterasu
 


You guys both did a good job, but I´ll hold off comment about it until its judged.

____________________________________


I would still love to see a debate on the subject of "There are higher level masons the lower levels dont know about" between MasonicLight and a conspiracy-theorist.

Anybody up for it?



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 11:40 AM
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reply to post by freight tomsen
 


What makes you so sure that some of the conspiracy-theories you believe in are only meant to deflect from something else going on?



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by kobalt7
I saw a few things i could have commented on on both sides but i figured my JFK speech link says everything i need to say, plus i got kinda irritated by the fact that people were denying its existence, so i figured id put that one to bed and then do the same with myself.
Actually, the JFK quote I was denying was this one

“The high office of President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the American's freedom, and before I leave office I must inform the citizen of his plight.” - John F. Kennedy at Columbia University, Nov. 1st, 1963, 10 days before his assassination
Quoted by Eric Dubay and about a dozen of his "sources", which I reiterate, is vehemently denied by the Kennedy Library.

Not one of the sites that quote that single sentence manage to have ANY of the rest of that speech.

An authoritative source (the JFK Library) says he didn't speak at Columbia at any time in November 1963, yet all of these "quotes" claim to be from "10 days before his death" and from a speech "at Columbia University". Although a dozen sites or books claim to have this one sentence, not one can put it in context by providing the rest of the speech. Clearly it was made up by one author to support his point and has been co-opted by other authors to further their own. That nowhere in that one made-up sentence does he even mention Masonry, means authors can make up their own context and attribute ANY shadow government or organization to try to explain why Kennedy might have said such a thing (even though he clearly didn't).

This is the quote I'm denying. This is the proof I'm using to back up my denial. When I presented such evidence to Freight Tomsen that he'd used something so easily refuted in his book, he merely suggested that he encouraged his readers to "do their own research". And if any bothered to, they'd pretty quickly find he was promoting lies as fact as well.



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 12:12 PM
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Notice the ridiculous nit-picking the Masons have to resort to. I gave two JFK quotes, one of them was from a speech he undeniably gave to newspaper publishers on April 27, 1961


"The very word ‘secrecy’ is repugnant in a free and open society, and we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, secret oaths, and secret proceedings … For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence. It depends on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific, and political operations. Its preparations are concealed, not published, its mistakes are buried, not headlined, its dissenters are silenced, not praised, no expenditure is questioned, no secret is revealed ... I am asking your help in the tremendous task of informing and alerting the American people.”


So he definitely said that. But then I also included this other tiny quote which JoshNorton admits he has found in a DOZEN other books. The JFK library denies this. Okay. Perhaps he never said the following quote at Columbia 10 days before his death. But perhaps he did, and we've both found many sources claiming that he did indeed say it. So here it is:


“The high office of President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the American's freedom, and before I leave office I must inform the citizen of his plight.”


That's it. That one tiny quote. The first long quote which says much more than this second one is undisputed. And this stems from a much larger, better post that JoshNorton says nothing about... he just jumps on one little thing, anything (as they do) in an attempt to discredit and derail the thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 12:22 PM
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reply to post by freight tomsen
 


Well sure, because in my mind there's a huge difference between someone saying secrecy is bad, and a President saying the office of the President has been subverted by a plot. They're two entirely different allegations, of entirely different natures. The first is passive, the second active. Sure, the second quote is tiny, but if it were true, it would be a LOT more damning. But it's not true. It's provably not true. And after that proof has been given, that you'd still choose to defend your use of it speaks much more about your "research" than anything else.



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 03:55 PM
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Stop arguing people. Any one with a fifth grade education and a library card or internet connection has already gathered the facts about the brotherhood and can see what they really stand for.

And in case you haven't a professor at my school is releasing a book over a thousand pages that is so in your face with FACTS about the mason's true intentions this summer that even Stevie Wonder could read it and see the truth. Best part is it's taken him over 50 years to write and it's entirely FREE for anyone who wants to truly be "enlightened".
My only fear is for his own safety which he assures me doesn't concern him. "The truth is all that matters" he always tells us now I know why.

The best part is he is STILL in the brotherhood, so ironic. It's always one of their own who gives out the best kept secrets. So in July of this year you will have proof that yes the masons are what you have feared they are and also that they are mostly keep in the dark and not all bad because it will be one of their own who finally exposes them to the public. He was even hinted at buying TV time to exposes one fact at a time in thirty seconds or something like that. He's rich, powerful, educated and my Hero.

So keep your eyes open this summer for the truth about the brotherhood.



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 03:59 PM
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reply to post by dark_matter06
 


Some scholary anti-masonic work by a mason himself would really be a novelty and is desperately needed. Looking forward to reading it.

Up to now we´ve only had scam-artists as shown in this thread. "Ex-Vampire who has found jesus exposes Masonry".



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


Good, I'm glad to hear that. The Professor is not so much anti-Masonic as he is pro-Truth. He strongly believes in the good of mankind and humanity and hopes to enlighten as many in the brotherhood as that of the average joe who may not have even heard of the brotherhood. I hope this doesn't fall apart as most things in this nature tend to. I remember being so excited for other books and disclosures and what not and they seem to go poof into thin air. I'm more excited for this because I know the man, only for 2 1/2 years to be honest, and he seems very excited himself and he truly is filthy rich. I know money is not important but lets face it, you need a lot of it today to get the truth out there and thankfully he has tons of it, at least in property and land as I have been fishing with him a lot lately.



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 04:19 PM
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reply to post by dark_matter06
 


Every 20 years or so, a conspiracy-book comes to the market that is not a rehash of what others wrote or a dishonest ploy to make money.

These rare gems are based on true research and digging.

Lets hope its one of those kind of books.

Whats been presented up to now is truly ABYSMAL. So I wont get excited just yet...but go ahead and let us know as soon as the book is out.



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