Since the masons have a pretty large group of people in their club, what is the need for secrecy now? If they are doing such good for people, why hide it?

They have no tyranny other than the MSM to worry about, and if they are doing a bunch of fundraisers, I don't even think they can touch them.

To me, either the masons have a suspect ulterior motive or they are like 12 year old boys with a clubhouse. I choose to believe the latter, but that's pretty lame.

If their motives aren't "evil," and they think they're doing good for the world, they should come out now. Times up, we need some heroes. If they are such wonderful people, they should realize the need for such a populous in our current situation.

But again, I think its more about a childish man-boy club.

Originally posted by SantaClaus
Since the masons have a pretty large group of people in their club, what is the need for secrecy now? If they are doing such good for people, why hide it?

Hi there.

In the OP I was referring to why it was originally secret. Its not secret anymore, thanks to Google where you can find ALL the ritual texts and teachings. The meetings are private yes...just like you would close the curtains of your house because not everyone has to stare in.

They have no tyranny other than the MSM to worry about, and if they are doing a bunch of fundraisers, I don't even think they can touch them.

To me, either the masons have a suspect ulterior motive or they are like 12 year old boys with a clubhouse. I choose to believe the latter, but that's pretty lame.

Sometimes, when sitting at the rather boring business meetings of a lodge, I too think its lame.

The reason for this is that since much of the world lives in a democracy by now, freemasonry has lost its original purpose of spreading liberation and tolerance.

Ideally, masonry would be reformed to return back to the more spiritual values present within it.

If their motives aren't "evil," and they think they're doing good for the world, they should come out now. Times up, we need some heroes. If they are such wonderful people, they should realize the need for such a populous in our current situation.

But again, I think its more about a childish man-boy club.

Well, considering that many on this board still think of masons as "child rapists" and "murderers" some privacy would still be justified.

In any case...in my 7 years as a master-mason I still havent learned any "secrets" that can not also be found on google.

I would love to hear the opinions of our anti-masonic posters here on this:

How do you explain that everything you accuse masons of doing and being, is actually being done by anti-masons?

Does this have anything to do with "point a finger at others and five are pointing at yourself"?

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon


Well, this raises the question of Masonry in smaller centres (and towns) vs. Masonry in cities and other dense urban centres. Is it more of a factor in towns as opposed to cities? Certainly in the suburb of Toronto I live in, Masons are far and away the exception and I'd suggest that that's probably typical of most urban areas on the continent. Towns and smaller cities? Couldn't say for sure but it wouldn't surprise me that its social aspect makes it even more appealing.

No that wasn't really what I was going for. But I think on this continent there are more masonic lodges than skull and bones, so in that respect, more prevalence.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Also, people fear what they don't know and the dip in membership that accompanied the Boomers means that fewer families at present are able to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to some of the wilder stories about Masonry. Mind you, in my Lodge and the other Lodges that meet in our Temple are seeing renewed interest in Masonry being expressed by 20-somethings.

Any specific reasons for this?

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

And what the hey? From their standpoint, they're laughing when it comes to oil prices and such. Self-sufficiency has much to recommend it. Maybe you can trade down to one-horse-power!

Oh believe me sir, I would very much like to find myself in simpler times every now and then. However, I believe that technology is the extension of the evolution of the mind, and I don't fight evolution. We'll eventually destroy ourselves, but thats just something else we don't have in common with other species. That's a discussion for a different thread.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Keep at 'er. You have the A part down!

I did NOT see that one coming.... sheesh..

Listen guys, the reason I don't feel these "clubs" are necessary is because of just this. They insist on self importance. Instead of doing good for the sake of doing good they get this overbearing pride about it, which IMO, turns into those "wilder stories" you speak about.

But then again maybe I don't take myself seriously enough.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Also, people fear what they don't know and the dip in membership that accompanied the Boomers means that fewer families at present are able to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to some of the wilder stories about Masonry. Mind you, in my Lodge and the other Lodges that meet in our Temple are seeing renewed interest in Masonry being expressed by 20-somethings.

Any specific reasons for this?



I am not sure if this is the reason or not. But as a boomer, I think the 60's did us in, with its down with the estashiment curture. The Veitnam war and the basic polical ruckus. Joining Dad's and Unkle Joe's club, just wasn't the hip thing to do.

[edit on 30-4-2008 by lost in the midwest]

Originally posted by SantaClaus
No that wasn't really what I was going for. But I think on this continent there are more masonic lodges than skull and bones, so in that respect, more prevalence.

S&B's a Yale-only thing but then again what were the odds of two Bonesmen going head-to-head for the big enchilada last time out? Prevalence doesn't equal prominence.

Originally posted by SantaClaus

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Also, people fear what they don't know and the dip in membership that accompanied the Boomers means that fewer families at present are able to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to some of the wilder stories about Masonry. Mind you, in my Lodge and the other Lodges that meet in our Temple are seeing renewed interest in Masonry being expressed by 20-somethings.

Any specific reasons for this?

Grandfathers and the Internet I'd wager.

Originally posted by SantaClaus

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
And what the hey? From their standpoint, they're laughing when it comes to oil prices and such. Self-sufficiency has much to recommend it. Maybe you can trade down to one-horse-power!

Oh believe me sir, I would very much like to find myself in simpler times every now and then. However, I believe that technology is the extension of the evolution of the mind, and I don't fight evolution. We'll eventually destroy ourselves, but thats just something else we don't have in common with other species. That's a discussion for a different thread.

Indeed. Hollywood never concocted an Armageddon being caused by and out-of-control horse and buggy.

Originally posted by SantaClaus

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Keep at 'er. You have the A part down!

I did NOT see that one coming.... sheesh..

Just kibitzing. No insult intended.

Originally posted by SantaClaus
Listen guys, the reason I don't feel these "clubs" are necessary is because of just this. They insist on self importance.

Actually, that's quite the opposite of what Masonry insists on. Masons are instructed to do good for its own sake and not seek out recognition and reward for what needed doing. Grandstanding is the antithesis of what it's all about.

Originally posted by SantaClaus
Instead of doing good for the sake of doing good they get this overbearing pride about it, which IMO, turns into those "wilder stories" you speak about.

If a Mason or group of Masons are behaving that way, then that flies in the face of Masonic teaching. But, like the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water......

Originally posted by SantaClaus
But then again maybe I don't take myself seriously enough.

Probably just as well. The ones that take themselves oh-so-seriously are usually insufferable. I try not to (with varying degrees of success) and I also keep perspective by recognising that years from now, the shows I've cut will be at best a footnote in people's lives. It ain't art but it's a living.

Actually, an addendum to the 'grandfathers and Internet' line. In my case, it most certainly was the former although there was a 70+ year gap. My Grandfather died of pneumonia in 1929 when my Dad was just 12. He, his little sister and my Grandmother were on a ship bound for Britain when he succumbed and his Lodge took care of all funeral arrangements while they were still at sea. What impressed me was a photograph that was taken showing a long double-line of Masons following the funeral hearse and those actions spoke more clearly to me than anything I've read on ATS as to what Masonry's all about.

The Internet component's really just a means to an end. It more easily facilitates enquiry and self-education (however you care to look at that).

First you say

Originally posted by SantaClaus
If they are doing such good for people, why hide it?

But then follow with

Originally posted by SantaClaus
Instead of doing good for the sake of doing good they get this overbearing pride about it, which IMO, turns into those "wilder stories" you speak about.

So which is it? Do you want us to crow about how much great work we do? Or are we doing good work for good work's sake without taking credit and that's why people still don't know about us?

There is no conspiracy against Freemasonry. The people you are calling "Anti-Masons" are just non-Masons who have taken the time to research the history of Freemasonry. Masonry is the conspiracy. People exposing Masonry are not conspiring to do so, they are simply informed and trying to warn others.

The thread also makes it seem like all Masons must be terrible people. As I've stated before most Masons are fine folks and don't even realize what their organization is being used for at the higher eschalons. By the time they rise to the higher levels they are under-oath not to divulge their secrets.

So why are a large group of Masons constantly monitoring ATS? Certain moderators here have also mentioned their involvement in Masonry. They are not here to inform you of the reality of Masonry - they are under blood-oath NOT to do so! They are here to provide a benevolent, seemingly open face for Masonry. But the reality is they are being paid to spend hours a day on different sites providing "establishment rationalism" against us "crazy conspiracy theorists."

Freemasonry is a secret fraternal order that has existed for hundreds, arguably thousands, of years and is now operating in most every country in the world. Masonry promotes itself as a philanthropic club for men of morals and they perpetuate this image through members of the first three “Blue degrees.” 97% of all Masons fall into this category and they are often upstanding citizens, pillars of the community who truly are charitable and benevolent. However, the higher degrees, the inner-circle of World Freemasonry, use the society’s global influence to advance their control.

Masons rise in degrees through a process of rituals and initiations. They read books like Machiavelli’s “The Prince” and Albert Pike’s “Morals and Dogma” then write essays detailing whether they agree philosophically with people like Pike, Hegel, Machiavelli and others. These essays are then sent in to the Headquarters of International Freemasonry and reviewed by top-level Masons. If the initiate agrees that the few should control the many, and that secret society rule is virtuous, etc. then he is congratulated and promoted through higher degrees. If the initiate disagrees that the few should control the many, and holds a genuinely moral position, then he is congratulated and promoted within his existing branch, never to rise above the Blue degrees. Every Mason will disagree with this however, because most Blue Lodge Masons genuinely do not know, and high-ranking Masons are sworn to secrecy.

"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Parts of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them, but it is intended that he shall imagine that he understands them. Their true implication is reserved for Adepts, the Princes of Masonry.” –Albert Pike (Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council of the 33rd degree and Supreme Pontiff of Universal Freemasonry) “Morals and Dogma”

"Freemasonry is a fraternity within a fraternity - an outer organization concealing an inner brotherhood of the elect. ... It is necessary to establish the existence of these two separate yet interdependent orders, the one visible and the other invisible. The visible society is a splendid camaraderie of 'free and accepted' men enjoined to devote themselves to ethical, educational, fraternal, patriotic, and humanitarian concerns.
The invisible society is a secret and most august fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious Arcanum arcandrum [a sacred secret]. Those brethren who have essayed to write the history of their craft have not included in their disquisitions [a formal discourse or treatise] the story of that truly secret inner society which is to the body Freemasonic what the heart is to the body human. In each generation only a few are accepted into the inner sanctuary of the work ... the great initiate-philosophers of Freemasonry are ... masters of that secret doctrine which forms the invisible foundation of every great theological and rational institution." -33rd Degree Mason Manly P. Hall, “Lectures on Ancient Philosophy”

The process from a 1st to 33rd degree Freemason may take 10, 20, 30 or more years but is not based on time. The way initiates rise degrees is through invitation by members of a higher degree. This is the nature of all secret societies; the only way to get ahead is by appeasing those ahead of you. It is through this boot-licking pyramid structure that the few bloodline elite at the top control the many at the bottom. Then by issuing lords, knights, and vassals of various degrees along the way to do their bidding, the royals essentially control all facets of this world-wide Brotherhood.

"The initiated brother realizes that his so-called symbols and rituals are merely blinds, fabricated by the wise to perpetuate ideas incomprehensible to the average individual. He also realizes that few Masons of today know or appreciate the mystic meaning concealed within these rituals." -33rd degree Mason Manly P. Hall, “The Lost Keys of Freemasonry”

“The invitation-only thirty-third degree … is the highest publicly known degree. The vast majority of members look upon their affiliation with Freemasonry as little different from joining the Lion's Club, the Optimists, or the chamber of commerce. And from their standpoint, this is true. Even Masonic literature makes clear that only those initiates who progress beyond thirty-third-degree status are educated in the group's true goals and secrets. This hierarchy is readily admitted by Masonic authors. ‘There has always existed an external, elementary, popular doctrine which has served for the instruction of the masses who are insufficiently prepared for deeper teaching,’ wrote Mason Wilmshurst. ‘There has been an interior, advanced doctrine, a more secret knowledge, which has been reserved for riper minds and into which only proficient and properly prepared candidates, who voluntarily sought to participate in it, were initiated.’” -Jim Marrs, “Rule by Secrecy” (247-8)

The OP seems to think Freemasonry is a super-benevolent organization incapable of harm. What about this for instance?

"One largely unreported story during the Ronald Reagan presidency clearly indicated that at least one freemason lodge was conspiring to overthrow the government of Italy. This scandal also involved a little-known group connected to the Freemasons called the Knights of Malta, which inherited the military orders of the old Knights Templar. John J. Raskob, one of the thirteen founders of the American Order of the Knights of Malta, was involved in the abortive coup against President Roosevelt in the early 1930s, foiled only after Marine major general Smedley Butler blew the whistle on the scheme. Modern American Knights included CIA directors John McCone and 'William Casey. Casey, along with Reagan's first secretary of state, Alexander Haig, have been connected to a fellow Knight named Licio Gelli, who during the 1980s turned a little-used Italian Masonic lodge into what was termed a ‘worldwide fascist conspiracy’ with the help of the Mafia, the Vatican Bank, and the CIA.” -Jim Marrs, “Rule by Secrecy” (256)

What about this?

“By 1826 it was estimated that Masons in the United States numbered nearly fifty thousand, mostly educated and professional men. But in that year, one Mason broke ranks. It became known that a Captain William Morgan of Batavia, New York, was planning to publish a book revealing the secret symbols, handshakes, oaths, and purposes of the Freemasons. Morgan, a thirty-year member of the order, wrote, ‘the bane of our civil institutions is to be found in Masonry, already powerful and daily becoming more so. I owe my country an exposure of its dangers.’ Before the book could be printed, Morgan and his publisher were kidnapped in Batavia. Irate friends and neighbors pursued the kidnappers and managed to rescue the publisher, but Morgan was not so fortunate. He was never seen again. Years later, a Mason named Henry L. Valance confided to his doctor as he lay dying that he and two other Masons had dropped Morgan into the Niagara River Valance said since that night he had suffered from a guilty conscience—‘the mark of Cain’—and sought absolution for his sin.” -Jim Marrs, “Rule by Secrecy” (217-8)

What about Mason John Robinson's 1798 book "Proofs of a Conspiracy Against all the Religions and Governments of Europe, Carried on in the Secret Meetings of Free Masons, Illuminati and Reading Societies"?

How is okay that for centuries, high-profile figures in politics, banking, media, military, and business have secret meetings, secret oaths, and secret proceedings? I do believe JFK had something to say about that. On April 27th, 1961 in an address to newspaper publishers, JFK said:

"The very word ‘secrecy’ is repugnant in a free and open society, and we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, secret oaths, and secret proceedings … For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence. It depends on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific, and political operations. Its preparations are concealed, not published, its mistakes are buried, not headlined, its dissenters are silenced, not praised, no expenditure is questioned, no secret is revealed ... I am asking your help in the tremendous task of informing and alerting the American people.”

“The high office of President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the American's freedom, and before I leave office I must inform the citizen of his plight.” - John F. Kennedy at Columbia University, Nov. 1st, 1963, 10 days before his assassination

After President Kennedy’s assassination in 1963, the Scottish-Rite of Freemasonry erected an obelisk there at Dealey Plaza and topped it with a depiction of the Illuminati flame. On his grave in Arlington Cemetery they lighted an “eternal flame” which still burns to this day. Over the Pont de L’Alma tunnel in Paris where Princess Diana was murdered after crashing into the 13th pillar, they erected a huge golden torch/flame sitting atop a black pentagram. On the island where Diana lies buried was placed yet another depiction of the Illuminati flame.

“The Brotherhood is telling us that they killed Kennedy and Diana, but unless you understand their symbolic language, you don’t know.” -David Icke, “The Biggest Secret” (352)

Josh Norton is a Mason, hence his avatar of a 3 of clubs. The club is Freemasonry, and is a 3-leaf clover, so the 3 of clubs represents 33, like the 33 degrees of Masonry. You folks can look into the Columbia speech yourselves.

Notice how all the Masons have symbolic/meaningful avatars here on ATS. This is because they speak in symbols and numbers.

At ground-zero of the World Trade Center shortly after 9/11 they lit another “eternal flame” for the victims. Overlooking the fallen World Trade Center buildings in New York Harbor stands the Freemasonic Statue of Liberty also holding up the Illuminati torch. Another few blocks away in Rockefeller Center, the Rockefellers erected a huge golden statue of Prometheus carrying the lighted torch. This Illuminati symbol is found on the dime, the D.I.A. seal, Indiana’s seal, the symbol of the Olympic Games, CBN, The National Front and many other places where the Brotherhood’s fingers have delved.

“The torch, of course, the Olympic torch, is the torch of Prometheus, the God who stole fire for the service of man. And, again, as we said, in New York in front of Rockefeller Plaza you will see the statue of Prometheus, holding in his hand a flame, the torch, the fire of revolution. The dime, of course, on the Mercury head dime, inscripted on the back of the dime you will find the torch of illumination. It's still there today. The modern American dime has the torch of illumination. The Statue of Liberty has the torch. Of course, on all universities and colleges we find in their symbols and emblems that they have the torches, symbolically standing for illumination of the Illuminati. As a matter of fact, when you are a graduate from a university you become an Alumni, which is taken from, obviously, Aluminati, Illuminati. Emphasizing that you become illuminated when you go to a university. The torch is also used in the Amoco Oil logo. It is found many, many places.” -Jordan Maxwell, “Matrix of Power”

“Their most used symbols are the lighted torch, the symbol of knowledge and the Sun. When an initiate reaches a certain level in the pyramid they are said to be ‘illuminated,’ more symbolism of the lighted torch. One of the recurring stories in the ancient world is of a hero figure who takes fire (knowledge) from the ‘gods’ and gives it to the people - the chosen few people, that is … At the Rockefeller Center in New York today is a gold statue of Prometheus (gold, the solar metal of the gods) and he is holding the light, the fire, in line with the legend. To the Rockefellers this is not just a statue; it is a symbol of the whole scam they are involved in.” -David Icke, “The Biggest Secret” (351)

“Another key Brotherhood symbol is the pyramid or the pyramid with the capstone missing. The street plan of Dealey Plaza where Kennedy was killed is shaped like a pyramid with the capstone missing.” -David Icke, “The Biggest Secret” (352)