Scientific Clues to the Existence of Ancient Civilized Peoples

SCIENTIFIC CLUES TO THE EXISTENCE OF ANCIENT CIVILIZED PEOPLES

One of the greatest questions man can pose is that of the existence of civilized people on Earth in our ancient past.

Periods where no culturally, technologically or socially advanced culture is documented to have existed are consistently being referred to by believers and scientists alike, with eyebrows raised and questioned asked, yet answers not forthcoming.

Is there evidence to be analyzed which could go some way towards piecing together the picture of our ancient past?

It seems as if there is.


This thread has been created as a reference point for all those curious minds who want to examine the factual pieces to the puzzle. Want to add some clues – please go ahead.

This will hopefully work towards an answer to the question: Did civilized peoples grace the Earth’s surface in ancient times?


CLUE 1: CELLS CONSERVING ENERGY WHEN FOOD IS SCARCE

The concept that mammals developed, in ancient times, a mechanism to activate an ancient cell signaling pathway to conserve energy when food supplies dwindle is intriguing to say the least.

www.sciencedaily.com...

From sciencedaily.com

Got food? A team of scientists at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies think they know how many--if not most--living organisms answer this question. They recently showed that when food supplies dwindle, mammals, fruitflies, or frogs probably activate the same ancient cell signaling pathway in order to conserve energy.

In a study published in the April 25, 2008 issue of Molecular Cell, investigators led by Reuben Shaw, Ph.D., assistant professor in the Molecular and Cell Biology Laboratory of the Dulbecco Center for Cancer Research, report that when mammalian cells sense that glucose and other nutrients are running short, they muffle a cellular protein called raptor, causing cells to slow their growth.

The interesting element here is not that mammals have developed this mechanism – simple survival dictates that the body reacts this way to a degree, but what is interesting is considering what may have lead to such mechanisms developing across the board.

Now before someone jumps in and claims “of course that mechanism is there, its survival!” – think about this.

Yes, certain peoples in certain would certainly develop this mechanism – food may be perpetually scarce in certain areas, leading the body to conserve energy to survive. But, could this mechanism develop as quickly or effectively in areas lush with vegetation where food is plentiful?

Why would peoples living in such conditions require a mechanism such as this?

A cataclysmic event which destroys most flora and fauna would leave man to fend for himself and would certainly create conditions that would, over generations of survivors, see these peoples’ bodies adapting to life with a dwindled food supply.


CLUE 2: THE NEAR EXTINCTION EVENT OVER 70,000 YEARS AGO

National Geographic Society explorer in residence and geneticist, Spencer Wells, published an extensive report this month outlining a likely population collapse over 70,000 years ago due to some kind of cataclysmic event.

www.cnn.com...

From CNN.com
Human beings may have had a brush with extinction 70,000 years ago, an extensive genetic study suggests.

The human population at that time was reduced to small isolated groups in Africa, apparently because of drought, according to an analysis released Thursday.

The report notes that a separate study by researchers at Stanford University estimated that the number of early humans may have shrunk as low as 2,000 before numbers began to expand again in the early Stone Age.

Here is a scientific study pointing to an event which almost wiped mankind off the map.

Granted, this is not evidence for a past civilized people, but what this does is provide us with a reference point or potential event which had the capability to wipe us out.

With reports like this in circulation we cannot sit back and assume that we are/were invincible. Major civilizations can be wiped out without a trace and this study goes a way towards proving it.

How much would be left 10,000 years after we were gone?

Mod Edit: All Caps removed from title


[edit on 4-30-2008 by worldwatcher]

replaced quote tags with 'ex' tags

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[edit on 30/4/08 by masqua]

CLUE 3: LIFE AFTER PEOPLE

www.history.com...

A brand new documentary by the History Channel has created the ultimate ‘what if’ scenario. The documentary follows the processes which unfold in an alternative reality where the Earth is dealing with life after people.

The documentary expressly states that after 10,000 years, the ONLY structures which would remain standing are those made from natural stone.

That’s right, in the same way that the only remaining ancient structures today are made from natural stone, Life After People suggests that ALL evidence of our current civilization would be gone after 10,000 years with the exception of natural rock formations – such as Mount Rushmore in Wyoming, USA.


CLUE 4: MYSTERIOUS ANCIENT ARTIFACTS AND ANOMOLIES

paranormal.about.com...

I am entirely aware that many of these artifacts have explanations which may or may not be the answer to their existence – I am aware of this, so let’s not focus on debunking these items. Please.

Let’s instead focus our attention on the overall message here. Even if ONE of these artifacts is the real deal then there is a case to be made for advanced peoples existing on the Earth in ancient times.


CLUE 5: CANNIBALISM

I take some poetic license here and am presenting a basic break down of an idea which occurred to me while researching for this thread.

Cannibalism is one area that has avoided serious scientific scrutiny. Yes, studies have been carried out but nothing which answers the following question has been researched to my knowledge.

Is cannibalism a relic of a period in our ancient past in which men, after experiencing a near extinction event, turned to eating one another for survival?

The traditional explanations for cannibalism just don’t seem to cut it in my opinion.

Ritual? Nutrition? Mental disorder? Survival?

Which of these seems the most likely? Surely it is survival.

I have been unable to locate a distribution map which shows the countries/regions which practice/d cannibalism but I would like to bet that there would be very few reports of cannibalism in areas existing in the centre of masses of land.

Island communities, coastal regions and other such areas prone to water-based disasters (flood, tsunami, etc) would surely make up the majority of cannibals.

I suggest that this could be a direct result of the Earth’s most recent global flood which many link to the gradual disappearance of Mu and Atlantis.

Communities are cut off. Animals are drowned and carried away. People are homeless and desperate. Technology is destroyed. After days without food, a tribe member dies. As his fleshy corpse begins to rot someone decides to use his flesh for sustenance.

The human flesh sustains the tribe. Each time someone dies, the tribe thanks their gods for the good fortune and the practice continues.

Hence the story of cannibalism begins.

In time, the ‘blessing’ that being able to eat those who have passed became, would become a ritual in itself to ensure the ‘gods’ continue to provide sustenance. When people stop dying naturally, ‘sacrifices’ would be made. It all fits in.

archaeozoo.wordpress.com...

So what do we think?

What else can be added to this list?

I’m keen to hear the feedback

reply to post by srsen



i'd say that the evidence for advanced technological achievement
(hence at least a city-state sized advanced civilization)
is the present day existance of the dozen 'Crystal Skulls'

the first of which were discovered years before abrasive tools for
sculpting shapes of human skulls, ranging from 4" small to 10" large,
and made from quartz crystal...was available to humanity.

One story I came across amazed me and if true is definate evidence of ancient civilized peoples living around 140 million years ago.

A Man found a fossilized Hammer that apparantley had been cast with a wooden handle.

Fossilized Hammer

ISA

Well it is possible that something existed 70000+ years ago for a brief period of time but it wouldnt be as advanced as modern civilization.

An interesting idea Srsen

1. & 2. although true I don't see how these point to an ancient civilization. Evolution doesn't work that fast.

3. Yes above ground but they didn't cover what archaeologically would survive - which from our civilization would be massive and easily detectable. Note what we can find from earlier cultures before 10,000 BP now. Hundreds of thousands of things.

4. Unfortunately these can all be explained as fakes, misinterpretations or other reasonable contra-ideas to signs of ancient civilizations.

5. As with 1 & 2 I don't see a link there with an ancient civilization

The hammer appears to be a pre-modern wrought iron hammer left in a desposit of water/liquid soluable material.

The wood handle is partially coalifed with quartz and calcite crystalline inclusions. Tests performed at Battelle Laboratory document the hammer’s unusual metallurgy, 96% iron, 2.6% chlorine and .74% sulfur (no carbon). Density test indicate casting of exceptional quality. A unique coating of FeO, which does not readily form under present atmospheric conditions, appears to inhibit rusting.
www.bible.ca...

It would appear the hammer was dripped on by dissolved chemicals, similar to the process in limestone caves.

The chemical composition I believe is of wrought iron which has little if any carbon.

FeO is rust!

i'd say that the evidence for advanced technological achievement (hence at least a city-state sized advanced civilization) is the present day existance of the dozen 'Crystal Skulls'

the first of which were discovered years before abrasive tools for
sculpting shapes of human skulls, ranging from 4" small to 10" large,
and made from quartz crystal...was available to humanity.

Sand works just fine as an abrasive.


Replaced quote tags with 'ex' tags

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[edit on 30/4/08 by masqua]

Originally posted by St Udio
reply to post by srsen

 

i'd say that the evidence for advanced technological achievement
(hence at least a city-state sized advanced civilization)
is the present day existance of the dozen 'Crystal Skulls'

the first of which were discovered years before abrasive tools for
sculpting shapes of human skulls, ranging from 4" small to 10" large,
and made from quartz crystal...was available to humanity.

When was the first discovered?

In what way does it differ from the other carved quartz artifacts that have been found?

Are you aware that no crystal skull has ever been found in any archaeological site? That is, none can be tied to any particular place or archaeological context and thus cannot possibly be dated in any way at all?

Harte

Originally posted by srsen

CLUE 1: CELLS CONSERVING ENERGY WHEN FOOD IS SCARCE

Got food? A team of scientists at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies think they know how many--if not most--living organisms answer this question. They recently showed that when food supplies dwindle, mammals, fruitflies, or frogs probably activate the same ancient cell signaling pathway in order to conserve energy.

The interesting element here is not that mammals have developed this mechanism – simple survival dictates that the body reacts this way to a degree, but what is interesting is considering what may have lead to such mechanisms developing across the board.

Now before someone jumps in and claims “of course that mechanism is there, its survival!” – think about this.

Yes, certain peoples in certain would certainly develop this mechanism – food may be perpetually scarce in certain areas, leading the body to conserve energy to survive. But, could this mechanism develop as quickly or effectively in areas lush with vegetation where food is plentiful?

Why would peoples living in such conditions require a mechanism such as this?

Your own source states that mammals, fruitflies and frogs all have the same mechanism. Why would you think the mechanism "developed" in humans? Why wouldn't we just have it the way we have, for example, placentae? I mean, we're mammals too. There are things about us that we have inherited from even the earliest ancestors of mammals, such as a spinal ccord, for example, or an endoskeletal structure.

Would you think that humans "developed" these two examples, or did we inherit them?

It's just insane to stipulate that some cellular activity shared across an entire family of creatures would have been "developed" by conditions that each creature lived in rather than being an inherited trait received from common ancestors.

Harte

CLUE 1: CELLS CONSERVING ENERGY WHEN FOOD IS SCARCE

- This probably evolved VERY early on in cell biology development (billions of years ago). Only cells which could reduce their calorific demands in times of scarce resources could survive, and pass on this ability.

Interestingly in a phenomenon known as Epigenetic inheritance, humans are shown to activate different genes when in times of plenty than in times of famine. For example, human height has been steadily increasing for the past 400 years or so because more and more nutrition is available, making it advantageous to express the genes for height (as height is probably the biggest determinant of strength and attractiveness).


CLUE 2: THE NEAR EXTINCTION EVENT OVER 70,000 YEARS AGO

Actually at that point in time there were very few homo sapiens around. I think studies have shown that most people alive today are linked to a woman known as "Mitochondrial Eve".

Since homo sapiens predecessors were migrating out of Africa, it would take only a lack of water or food to trigger mass death in the very small standing population of that time.


I think a better form of evidence is the correlation between the major hymns, literature, verbal traditions and legends.

For example, most religious texts talk about a great deluge, or flood. This tends to support a notion that a massive, worldwide flood must have occured for all major civilizations to document it.

Howdy 44SS

OR there were lots of regional floods (which there is evidence for while there is a great deal of contra-evidence against the idea of a global flood)

Similarity in myth can also be explained by humans creating stories to explain the same things they all saw.

Just wanted to say that I am not pointing out clues to ancient civilizations, JUST for ancient civilized people. I know it’s a technicality, but just wanted to clarify that


reply to post by isaeyeallseeing


That's an interesting find. As with all these types of artifacts, it's very hard to know exactly what the story is, but once again – if only ONE of these artifacts are the real deal then that's more than enough.


reply to post by Hanslune


1+2 - I'm just suggesting that poor living conditions over a long period bought on by some kind of cataclysm could cause these mechanisms to develop. Suffice to say, I think uniformitarianism just doesn't work.

If I had to chose, I would think that such mechanisms certainly could have developed fairly early in man's journey, possibly too early to fit my idea, but who really knows what the truth is with such matters.

3 - Interesting point regarding what archaeology would remain. And it's a valid one too. My only question is whether or not that archaeology would be found. I mean, we DO find plenty of archaeology these days, plenty. Some of it is quite bizarre.

Check this site – once again, am not claiming everything listed there as gospel. But just some examples of what I mean.

s8int.com... – ANOMALIES FOUND IN COAL AND ROCK

4 – Just like the items in the above link, there can be explanations and there can be theories, bottom line is that NOBODY really knows what the truth is and who is having the wool pulled over their eyes. So, all I can say is, who knows.

5 – Just putting the idea out there. Just ponder the thought with an open-mind and you will at least see where I am coming from


reply to post by Harte


See, I would say that all such mechanisms in the body did develop early on but who is to say whether or not such mechanisms can be modified (or also developed) in shorter time periods than normal if circumstance dictates.

I mean, we simply don't know, regardless of what text books say. We think outside of what we are indoctrinated to believe and keep all possibilities alive. I say it all the time, but remember the "flat world" lie that prevented so much exploration all those years ago…

Also, if humans were suffering adverse conditions, wouldn't it stand to reason that those animals which were still around would also be suffering from such conditions and hence develop similar mechanisms?

Oh, and I don’t believe it would be insanity at all – in fact, I think that believing that different life forms could all develop similar survival mechanisms when living in similar geographical regions and going through the same adverse conditions (and those conditions could very easily have been global) makes a fair amount of sense.


reply to post by 44SoulSlayer


1 – Possibly, but once again, who knows! Epigenetic inheritance is quite interesting though. Makes me think, what does this say about Earth's past when you consider the evidence for giants.

Increased atmosphere and oxygen allowing for giant specimens? (see Dr Kei Mori's experiments with cherry tomatoes)
Growing Earth theory? (see Neil Adams)

Or could giants have been the last step in a lineage of man that lived through such prosperous times that we eventually grew to enormous size due to such abundance?

Just a thought.

2 – But can the past human population REALLY be known? If we are to be serious about this then we both know the answer to that is no. Anything could have happened in the past which could have destroyed evidence of ancient civilized people.


[edit on 30-4-2008 by srsen]

an interesting site srsen

I'd seen a lot of it in the work of Corliss

How much of it is true?

Originally posted by srsen
CLUE 5: CANNIBALISM

I take some poetic license here and am presenting a basic break down of an idea which occurred to me while researching for this thread.

Cannibalism is one area that has avoided serious scientific scrutiny. Yes, studies have been carried out but nothing which answers the following question has been researched to my knowledge.

One thing I learned in Anthropology class in in college was that there has never been a documented case of a society that regularly practiced cannibalism. The few exceptions to this are some societies that had some form of it in religious ritual, but it was pretty rare.

Interesting thread though!



[edit on 5/1/2008 by JustMe74]

Yes this is true - but i suppsoe what i was thinking was more along the lines of those traits which you studied being the end of a long line of events in which, for a period, cannibalism was required to survive.

Slowly, through time, the practice dwindle away as food returned to normal levels and was merely left as a "ritual" practice.

Originally posted by srsen
Slowly, through time, the practice dwindle away as food returned to normal levels and was merely left as a "ritual" practice.

I suppose that's possible. There are many examples through history of things like that. For example, take the example of Marranos. They were originally Jewish people living in Spain who stayed after the 1492 expulsion, but continued to practice their religion in secret. Today in Spain you can find families that do things like light candles on Friday night (a typical practice for Sabbath observance among Jewish people) but they don't know how this "family tradition" was started.