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What can we do Chrisians to fight of arrogant people?

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posted on Apr, 30 2008 @ 09:53 PM
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Originally posted by JesusisTruth

we get bashed for no reason..



No. You get "bashed" because of threads like this: you generalize all non-believers as "arrogant". This implies both that you have judged us("judge not, lest you be judged") in an insulting way, and that you believe not only that your beliefs are the only correct beliefs(fair enough), BUT ALSO that those who don't adhere to them are somehow bad, stupid, or... well, arrogant, people. That there's something inherently wrong(I'm using wrong here not in the context of 'truth', but in the context of morality and functionality) with disagreeing with your beliefs.



It's threads like this that repeatedly remind me why I'm not a Christian(or a monotheist, for that matter).




posted on May, 1 2008 @ 08:29 AM
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core you cannot be wronger..


" you generalize ALL non believers as arrogant "

that's proof you didn't read my original post you liar..


I made this thread because of atheist threads like the guy who just made a thread whos name is whatuknow...

he was completely disrespectful and attacking and unsincere..

Do I believe all non believers are stupid and bad?

No. did I say that?

you put words in my mouth to win an argument.. Go read some of the atheist post, look how hatefull some of them are. Obviously I said..

" Not all atheist are like this, and the ones who are sincere the other arrogant people should learn from them "


we get attacked for no reason.... and I'm tired, freaking tired of it...

btw I love athiest to death, they are souls and I care for them and you too....

pe3ace.

[edit on 1-5-2008 by JesusisTruth]



posted on May, 1 2008 @ 01:06 PM
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reply to post by JesusisTruth
 


irony, your thread has metric boatloads of it (yes, i'm well aware that there is no such thing as a metric boatload, but i just thought it sounded nice)

arrogance:


adj Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.


i'm sorry, but "anti-christians" don't seem to have this any more than christians do

in fact, i'd argue that claiming to be saved through knowledge of absolute truth that cannot be obtained by non-believers is pure arrogance...


tell me who is more arrogant in this scenario

i say there is no way to prove their is a god and that the entire concept doesn't really hold water because the universe operates perfectly without the existence of a deity, so i choose not to believe in it.

the christian then tells me that the infallibility of the bible is proof of god

i then say that x, y, and z are flaws in the bible and then provide some logical philosophical reasoning behind my arguments

the christian then tells me that i simply cannot understand the bible because i'm not endowed with the blessing of the holy spirit and cannot understand the book without it


i'd say the christian's claims are far more arrogant in this situation.

i've seen many people that have participated in this thread make that claim...
only to complain about "anti-christians" now...

edit: added a single space and this text right here.

[edit on 5/1/08 by madnessinmysoul]



posted on May, 1 2008 @ 01:27 PM
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reply to post by JesusisTruth
 

Hi. Sorry my last post looked slightly incongruous - you posted while I while still drafting - I was just backing up what kinglizard and junglejake had said.


I have learned a HUGE lesson today.....

Hey, we are all learners.

I'll just add that I for one really appreciate the raw honesty and passion in your words (-although some of your more choice terminology, err, doesn't usually feature in Christian apologetics...)


reply to post by whaaa
 


Isn't pride and feelings of superiority a form of arrogance?

I saw arrogance by the Church of Christ toward the Southern Baptist.
I saw arrogance by the Southern Baptist toward the Presbyterians.
They all Hated the Catholics. And in their Hearts they all hated the Jews, even though they payed lipservice, in that they are "Gods Chosen"

Look deep within yourselves and tell me that you don't feel pride and superiority over non believers. Is this arrogance?

You have made a very valid point here.

We all need to search our hearts,

a) because the kind of interdenominational suspicion and mistrust (you even say arrogance, and I'd agree that does creep in,) you mention does no credit to anyone, least of all Christ

b) pride and arrogance are both an affront to God, i.e. they are downright sinful

I do think you are going too far in speaking of hatred towards the Jews. I have never ever come across that. Christians are generally deeply concerned for them as many Jews have missed their Messiah (-many have not, incidentally-) and it saddens us deeply when we hear of some being hard-hearted towards Christ. If you really did come across anything like hatred I feel appalled and a real sense of shame.

As to hatred of Catholics, that too, I believe is a misreading of the situation. On a personal level I have inferred that JIT and junglejake may well be Roman Catholics, but I'm blessed by their contributions; furthermore I have come across some remarkable RCs in my time who believe the Bible as I do.

What you may have perceived is a dislike of some RC teachings which protestant denominations disagree with. That's why we're called protestant - we protest certain aspects of RC doctrine. On the other hand Christians are fallible human beings like the rest, and confidence in doctrine can indeed very easily slip over into arrogance and pride. Again, if you've come up against hatred towards members of the RC church I am utterly appalled. No excuses.

At the end of the day, though, we are just sinners who have been forgiven, and who are spending the rest of our lives trying to pick up the pieces. Often failing, I might add.

Still, I hope my previous post really did illustrate why believers have absolutely no grounds whatsoever for feeling pride or superiority over non-believers. Or over anyone, for that matter.



posted on May, 1 2008 @ 01:45 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 

Hi MIMS.

Just posted the above & felt the need to address one of your points:


the christian then tells me that i simply cannot understand the bible because i'm not endowed with the blessing of the holy spirit and cannot understand the book without it

The blessing of the Holy Spirit is available if you are willing to turn from things in your life that offend God. If you harden your heart because you are unwilling, because the passing sinful pleasures of this life are too precious, then even asking for the help of the Holy Spirit is hypocrisy. You have a choice: now or eternity...

God invites us all with many 'whosoever'-based invitations. If you only knew how putrid human sin is to a being of infinite moral purity you would begin to grasp the sheer unmerited mercy and grace that ever motivated him to speak in such terms!

This is the biggie, but there are plenty more like it:


God so loved the world that He gave his only-begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

Gospel of John ch.3 v.16

(Thank you, Lord. I bow, and worship You in utter amazement.)




Edit: realised belatedly that even the best-known promise in the Bible requires a reference on ATS!

[edit on 1/5/08 by pause4thought]



posted on May, 1 2008 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by pause4thought
What you may have perceived is a dislike of some RC teachings which protestant denominations disagree with. That's why we're called protestant - we protest certain aspects of RC doctrine. On the other hand Christians are fallible human beings like the rest, and confidence in doctrine can indeed very easily slip over into arrogance and pride. Again, if you've come up against hatred towards members of the RC church I am utterly appalled. No excuses.





I was appalled also. I have seen utter disdain and hatred, by Protestant, rednecks, toward even members of their own congregation that did not somehow "measure up" to what they deemed the Christian ideal. Even to the point of throwing them out of the church.
You can't imagine the vitriol expressed about Jews and Catholics even from the pulpit of mainstream churches in the Southern US. The "holier than thou" ethic I found stifling to my personal spiritual growth as there was no room for any deviation from the prescribed dogma. Much like here on ATS by some.

I supposed being British P4T; there is a more genteel and gracious attitude in your part of the world. Good on ya!!

I just wish all this cry baby whining by both sides would end and we could find common ground as humans regardless of our faith. Probably to much to ask given the arrogance and pride indicative of the human condition.



[edit on 1-5-2008 by whaaa]



posted on May, 1 2008 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by whaaa
 

Sadly it is a measure of the magnitude of the corruption of the human heart that even when a person says they follow the teachings of Christ, who did everything for the blessing of others, whatever the cost, they can, by their behaviour, still turn their knowledge of the teachings into a means of obscuring their beauty.

Where Christ's teachings have truly penetrated the heart, the beauty of Christ himself, and yes, I dare to say it, the beauty of God Himself begins to shine through.

Sincere disciples of Christ's teaching are found across the denominations. In ancient times the prophet Elijah thought he was the only true follower left, but God humbled him by assuring him he'd reserved a faithful band of true worshippers unnoticed by the masses.

The only solution is to give up the search for a church/denomination that has it all right, and humbly ask God to help you in your personal search. He'll lead you to fallible men and women in various places who will acknowledge they don't have it all right, but want to learn from Christ. It's a lifelong pilgrimage of seeking to learn and to serve God and your fellow man. "We've got it all sorted" sets the alarm-bells ringing. It is the surest sign of a cult, and a danger many true churches fail to recognise.

One of the best pastors I ever had said from the pulpit: "If you ever think I have said something wrong in my preaching, show me from the Bible and I'll publicly go back on what I said".

I know you may well not see eye to eye with me inasmuch as you may not regard the Bible as your guide. I'm just making the point that when someone sees themselves as the point of reference for truth, they tend to become arrogant and exclusive, in the ways that have sickened you.

I don't literally have any experience of the denominations you mention, but I wager there are still many individuals within them who follow Christ above their leaders and maintain an attitude of love and humility to Jewish people and to Catholics.

Thankyou for your kind words towards the British. Only a few days ago I was speaking to a friend about the marvellous 'can-do' / 'get-up-and-go' attitude of the Yanks! (Note - a term of endearment.) It often puts us more reserved Brits to shame.

It all backs up what you're basically saying - respect for others despite differences promotes understanding and peace.

You might just find this thread I started some time ago, about showing more respect for Muslims, interesting:

www.belowtopsecret.com...

Good to talk with you. It's conversations like this, whaaa, that make this whole ATS lark worthwhile.



posted on May, 2 2008 @ 04:10 AM
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reply to post by pause4thought
 



Originally posted by pause4thought
The blessing of the Holy Spirit is available if you are willing to turn from things in your life that offend God. If you harden your heart because you are unwilling, because the passing sinful pleasures of this life are too precious, then even asking for the help of the Holy Spirit is hypocrisy. You have a choice: now or eternity...


*facepalm*:shk:

this is the exact sort of arrogance i'm talking about!

i'm quite sure that i may do a bad thing here or there, but who doesn't? i think i'm just about as "sinful" as any other human being on the planet.

this sort of closed-minded preaching is the most arrogant sort. how do you know what's sinful? how do you even know what i've done with my life?

excuse me, but i have not hardened my heart, i've made many legitimate attempts at becoming a devout christian, but i found them all empty in the end.

meh, maybe it's your god that's hardening my heart (he seems to do that in the bible to people, why can't he violate my free will like that?)

honestly, why the hell is this sort of repugnant stuff even taken as holy?
love thy neighbor, but tell her/him that s/he is going to have to make a choice between now and eternity

i choose option 3: being a good person, living a good life, helping as many people as i can while hurting as few as possible, and letting that stand alone.

if i'm wrong and there's a god and that god chooses to punish me for simply not believing though i lived a good life, that deity does not deserve my devotion or praise, because it's a bag of douche

on to more:



God invites us all with many 'whosoever'-based invitations.


except for "whosoever lives a good life gets rewarded, regardless of their belief"
that one is absent



If you only knew how putrid human sin is to a being of infinite moral purity you would begin to grasp the sheer unmerited mercy and grace that ever motivated him to speak in such terms!


infinite moral purity?
tell that to the middianites and the other people of canaan that god had cleansed...
or the mass murder involved in that whole "flood" thing...
or to gandhi, who is burning in hell by god's standards...

hell, the first 3 commandments aren't even moral! they're just religious dogma.
most of what is "sin" is simply not being of the right religion, how is that in any way moral?

how is creating the damn ebola virus moral?
how is making the whole story to end in a certain way and then hypocritically proclaiming that we have free will moral?
how is allowing (insert any disaster not a product of human intervention) moral?

i'm sorry, but your deity is quite amoral. sure, he's no zeus, but he's quite far from moral.


This is the biggie, but there are plenty more like it:


God so loved the world that He gave his only-begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

Gospel of John ch.3 v.16


rapist who repents and accepts jesus = saved
mass murderer and serial killer who accepts jesus = saved
atheist who lives a good life = damned to hell




(Thank you, Lord. I bow, and worship You in utter amazement.)


sorry, lord, i can't worship you if you exist and are really as your followers describe

...though i think you'd a be hell (...not intentional) of a lot cooler and a lot more enlightened than they make you out to be.

[edit on 5/2/08 by madnessinmysoul]

[edit on 5/2/08 by madnessinmysoul]



posted on May, 2 2008 @ 12:07 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 

Hi MIMS. Nice to be back in conversation with you.


Originally posted by pause4thought
The blessing of the Holy Spirit is available if you are willing to turn from things in your life that offend God. If you harden your heart because you are unwilling, because the passing sinful pleasures of this life are too precious, then even asking for the help of the Holy Spirit is hypocrisy. You have a choice: now or eternity...



this is the exact sort of arrogance i'm talking about!

i'm quite sure that i may do a bad thing here or there, but who doesn't? i think i'm just about as "sinful" as any other human being on the planet.


Your final phrase is damningly true. It is because we are all corrupt that we cannot enter God's presence.

"A bad thing here or there is your own assessment. But you are not the judge. The One who is the judge of all the earth perceives our deepest and most secret motives and desires. A single moral imperfection would leave us liable to judgement. However not even a lifetime of moral corruption compares to the real issue: we enjoy many things that are corrupt, and don't have the wherewithal to change even if the desire were to arise. That is why Christ said John 8:34 we are slaves to our sinful nature.

Arrogance? Proclaiming I, like everyone else, can never be good or upright in God's eyes, and so encouraging people to listen to the only morally perfect human being that ever lived, as he is full of mercy! Strange definition of arrogance.

"A bad thing here or there..." Again your assessment. Christ warned that those who continue to regard themselves as basically not too bad will have no part in his eternal kingdom.


"I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentence"

Luke 5:32

A vast amount of Christ's teaching relates to this. If you see no need of cleansing from your sin you will not seek it, and you cannot therefore receive it. It will stain you throughout eternity as you rejected the only remedy. When exposed to God's presence you will be overcome by the perfect purity of God and your total nakedness before Him. Your shame will lead you to flee His presence - He does not need to send people to hell - they run there, desperate to hide their shame.

Surely wonderful people like Ghandi are different? In our estimation, yes. But we do not see the depth of men's corruption as God does, because our hearts are hardened to it's enormity.

God's assessment is that no-one keeps his law, and no-one will ever be justified in His sight by their attempts to keep it.

The purpose of God's law was to expose the depth of our corruption so we could realise our need of cleansing and forgiveness. The law exposes the fact that we are imprisoned by the power of our corrupt nature.


...if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness (i.e. in God's estimation) would certainly be by the law. But the Scripture has imprisoned everything under sin's power, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Galations 3:21b-22

It is not our failure to believe that condemns us, it is our corruption. Believing that Christ's cross is the remedy is the means that God chose to offer us release from the condemnation we deserve.

(And he was under no obligation to offer it at all, especially as we underestimate the cost to Him personally - the humiliation and death of His own dear Son - and many even mock and oppose Him.)

Christ took what we deserve, so God can remain just while still forgiving.


...He was pierced because of our transgressions (i.e. law-breaking), crushed because of our iniquities (i.e. shortcomings); punishment for our peace was on Him, and we are healed by His wounds.

We all went astray like sheep; we all have turned to our own way; and the Lord has punished Him for the iniquity of us all

Isaiah 53:5&6

Profound words indeed. And humbling.

The cross is the only way to find forgiveness, because God is unable to set aside His justice, which is an aspect of His moral perfection (- like it or not, and we will all meet him one day, some sooner, some later).


For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. God presented him as a propititiation through faith in his blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. He presented him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus

Romans 3:23-26

Christ is the way, the door and the price of entry into Heaven. That's why he told the people who thought they were good enough for God to accept them that corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes were able to enter God's kingdom (Matthew 21:31&32), while those who rejected Christ and his Gospel of blood-bought forgiveness would have no part in it (Matthew 21:42&43).

I do not put you down for not seeing that you are in dire need of cleansing and forgiveness. It is the natural human condition. May God give you grace to reconsider the seriousness of your sinful state, as he did to me when I didn't deserve it.

Do not kid yourself you have not committed serious sin. I hardly know you, but I fear you have been trying to discourage people's faith in Christ. All three synoptic Gospels contain this warning from the Son of God:


...whoever causes the downfall of one of these little ones who believes in me - it would be better for him if a heavy millstone were hung around his neck and he were drowned in the depths of the sea

Matthew 18:6 ; Mark 9:42 ; Luke 17:2

But the main point remains that all of us have myriad just accusations hanging over us until we seek forgiveness in the light of the Cross.

Thank God He is not only a just Judge, He is the God of Grace.



posted on May, 2 2008 @ 12:43 PM
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puase 4 thought, you see your response to madness teaches me alot because you still said..

" nice to speak with you again " unconditional love... and that is a form of grace......

again madness is speaking in terms of his human mind.... saying that..

" how can God be moral who creates a deadly virus "


Firstly sickness is a part of life and we all die.. So tell me if a human gets cnacer from their lifestyles of eating wrong how can that be different then attracting the ebola virus?

Are they still not gonna die anyways? Yes but Gods timing is his and EVERYBODY madness must die, every single sou, but the way God takes people doesn't make him evil.....

It's all apart of free will and the envirronment we created creates alot of the problems and sicknesses we see today, and also the fact that the sin of Eve took us away from paradise..

the point is that you are coming from this with a non humble perspective...


If God is love and he created you right? Since you madness are so (good), you can do way better then your source you came from....

since you have so much love that you would do differently...

How can God create something better then himself?

He (is) love itself and you, the only reason you have love or even know of it is because of him....

(listen) to me....

(evil) people are people without graces.. graces are love.. Love comes from God....

your love comes from God unless you are running on pride which is a source of self love... which sucks...

anyways... let us get back to this, btw I don't know how this thread turned into this..


you said it is arrogance to believe that you are only saved by Christ and accepting him?

No that is not... that is called faith.. the fact is that Christ said whoever will not listen to you, leave them alone and do not bother with them anymore..


If Christ came to earth ok? worked countless miracles many people seen, was predicted in the OT many times to come into the world even before Bhudda existed...

a belief in him as God is not arrogance, it is called revealed truth accompanied by countless miracles I myself have seen...


Now someone who says ......... (I) am better then you because I am christian ..


(that is arrogance...)



moving on....


you said,


" A child rapest can be forgiven and make it into heaven "

" A good athiest can live a good life and still not make it "


Not the exact qoute, but I don't have a good short term memory...


Listen closely to this...

A child rapest (CAN) get forgiveness...... ONLY IF HE REPENTS AND DOES PENANCE AND DOES NOT SIN ANYMORE ..


you see forgive is only when you decide to do no more sin.. Yet if the rapest continued then no way he would get forgiveness....

God will make someone pay for that type of crime madness..

everybody deserves a chance for forgiveness and again it is because of grace...

Grace can change people madness, and you see your arguments are from a mind that does not understand what grace is...

like when I was younger how I used to throw things at my mother...

what if God said...

NO, it is over for you... your done for no more chances? Thats not unconditional love....

No. God waited for me and I changed through him...

yet you are coming from the standpoint that once bad always bad, noone can change, but that is just human minds thinking...


peace.



posted on May, 2 2008 @ 12:51 PM
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and whaaa.. don't flame me,, I know you are looking at the slightest fault on my part to give you an oppertunity..

firstl I said..

" whaaa is an athiest, IF I AM NOT MISTAKEN "

which i was... I remember back couple months ago talking to an athiest which i thought was you..

I was mistaken.. sorry...

peace.



posted on May, 2 2008 @ 12:58 PM
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" I thought you were alot cooler "

what are you stone cold steve austin?

what does God have to have a beer in each hand, have hooters as his throne and play pool twice aweek with a cigar in his mouth??

meanwhile saying slogans like..

" get her done "

" I'm badd A$$ "

" Lets do it homie "


God is innocent. he created innocent animals for pets and shows himself through them.. God is love itself and hates sins...

He hates players, he hates lust, he hates pride, he hates attitude, people thinking they are bad...

He's innocent.. That's why he loves the childlike and people who like animals... and humble people and so forth...

to me I don't care if God is cool.. He is God.... and is the creator of our souls..

peace.



posted on May, 2 2008 @ 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by JesusisTruth
I made this thread because of atheist threads like the guy who just made a thread whos name is whatuknow...

he was completely disrespectful and attacking and unsincere..


Whoa Nelly! WOOT! Seriously its an honor to have a thread made because I have urked you off to the degree that you feel that I am arogant. Heck it means I made an impact. Yet you lost the message I was trying to portray.

The thread you are refering to had nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with God itself. And for some reason I think that God can stick up for himself without the need for you to defend him.

Anywho just to clarify...

1. I am not an Athiest.

2. I am arrogant to the exent that I do know certain things that are relevent to my argument. I have defended my position.

3. The name is whatukno. (no w on the end)

4. anyone that knows me knows not to take things I say too seriously. Don't be too offended my good man.

but don't worry this stems from an arrogant, immature, gotee sporting, women leering, drunkin idiot.

isnt that what you called me in the other thread?

[edit on 5/2/2008 by whatukno]



posted on May, 2 2008 @ 02:22 PM
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are you telling me that thread was a joke?

Look I know people like George Carlin and so forth do that, but it is offensive to us...

and the reason I called you a gotee sporting guy is because of the way you said..

" Knocked up mary "

it's like a typical dude way of thinking.... man I'm glad my dad didn't think of my mom as someone to just (knock up)

He actually loved my mom..

can you believe it?

Love?

real love..

lol..

I am sorry for that.... I apologize for my comments.... it was out of line, but so was the knocking up mary to me, that stuff don't fly with me...

you remind me of a guy named jameslesser that used to post on here... back in 2002...

peace/



posted on May, 2 2008 @ 04:43 PM
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reply to post by pause4thought
 


though it's nice chatting with you as well, you've ignored my main point... and then managed to reinforce it


Do not kid yourself you have not committed serious sin. I hardly know you, but I fear you have been trying to discourage people's faith in Christ. All three synoptic Gospels contain this warning from the Son of God: (snipped verse out)


why is discouraging faith in god sinful? what's so vile about arguing positions of belief?

could you please address why "whoever does good things and makes the world a better place shall have a place in my kingdom" is strikingly absent?

if god cares more about that then whether or not i lived a good life, i'd prefer to burn with gandhi than have eternal bliss with the faithful



posted on May, 2 2008 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by JesusisTruth

puase 4 thought, you see your response to madness teaches me alot because you still said..

" nice to speak with you again " unconditional love... and that is a form of grace......


no, that's just respect. i respect pause, though i tend to...well, pause in apprehension at some arguments i hear.



again madness is speaking in terms of his human mind.... saying that..

" how can God be moral who creates a deadly virus "


Firstly sickness is a part of life and we all die.. So tell me if a human gets cnacer from their lifestyles of eating wrong how can that be different then attracting the ebola virus?


...you don't do anything specific to attract the ebola virus, it's just something that happens through contact with animals.



Are they still not gonna die anyways? Yes but Gods timing is his and EVERYBODY madness must die, every single sou, but the way God takes people doesn't make him evil.....


i never said god was evil, i said that god wasn't moral. amoral doesn't mean evil.

i'm saying that it's unnecessary. an infant dying in a flood. that child had no chance to do anything in life, why would your god take it?



It's all apart of free will and the envirronment we created creates alot of the problems and sicknesses we see today, and also the fact that the sin of Eve took us away from paradise..


....tornadoes, volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis
not our fault
the vast majority of infectious disease, not out fault

and i thought jesus had this whole "you don't inherit the sins of your ancestors" thing going...
and it wasn't eve, god took us away from paradise

omnipotent, omniscient being sets up scenario knowing full well what would happen
god set up a situation which would get us kicked out.



the point is that you are coming from this with a non humble perspective...






If God is love and he created you right? Since you madness are so (good), you can do way better then your source you came from....


...stop putting words in my mouth. i do good things. i do my best to be the best person i can and most people would say i'm a decent if not good guy.

and no, god didn't create me
my parents did.



since you have so much love that you would do differently...

How can God create something better then himself?


not that hard. humanity is venturing closer and closer to creating our betters. robotics and artificial intelligence are progressing to the point where we'll have beings that are superior to us in every way.

in fact, the computer i'm working on has far more memory than i do and the plastic that is its skin is stronger than my flesh

and, unlike myself, computers can constantly be upgraded...



He (is) love itself and you, the only reason you have love or even know of it is because of him....


assertion
but no evidence.



(listen) to me....

(evil) people are people without graces.. graces are love.. Love comes from God....


or maybe love comes from the mind



your love comes from God unless you are running on pride which is a source of self love... which sucks...

anyways... let us get back to this, btw I don't know how this thread turned into this..


your thread became what it became because it's basically a giant boat of hypocrisy.



you said it is arrogance to believe that you are only saved by Christ and accepting him?


yep, pretty much
it's saying that you belong in heaven and gandhi doesn't.



No that is not... that is called faith.. the fact is that Christ said whoever will not listen to you, leave them alone and do not bother with them anymore..





If Christ came to earth ok? worked countless miracles many people seen,


none of the first hand accounts exist...
there's 0 evidence to support the miracles
and it wasn't countless, it was like...a few dozen.



was predicted in the OT many times to come into the world even before Bhudda existed...




a belief in him as God is not arrogance, it is called revealed truth


no, it's called arrogance. now, thinking that it's a very likely option and believing it while accepting the very real possibility that it isn't the truth WOULDN'T be arrogance.



accompanied by countless miracles I myself have seen...


i cannot argue that you're telling the truth or not
you may very well believe that you saw miracles
but i cannot accept it as objective reality unless you provide evidence.



you said,


" A child rapest can be forgiven and make it into heaven "

" A good athiest can live a good life and still not make it "


Not the exact qoute, but I don't have a good short term memory...


Listen closely to this...

A child rapest (CAN) get forgiveness...... ONLY IF HE REPENTS AND DOES PENANCE AND DOES NOT SIN ANYMORE ..


the point, you're missing it.

you continue on this example, but you forget that my point is that a good atheist doesn't get into heaven for simply being an atheist.



posted on May, 2 2008 @ 05:10 PM
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Sometimes the truth can be against our ways of thinking. Perhaps Knocked Up was a poor choice of words in your view. It did however fit in with the style of writing I was contributing in. As I said in the thread I can write in any style that seems appropriate at the time.

Of course I can believe in real love. I am sure that your father did in fact love your mother and did not simply knock her up. Of course I was not talking about you or your family. I was talking about God and Mary. Do you know if God actually knew Mary or was she really a vessel for the spirit of the lord to inhabit during the gestation process?

That thread of course was not a joke but in my typical fashion I used humor to invoke thought and to post a point. Humor my friend sometimes fails to bring about a laugh as some people would not consider the humorous nature of the subject matter funny. However some others did find it amusing.

And I offer my sincerest apologies for offending you and your faith however I do not apologize for the comments that I have made. For what I said in that thread I felt was the truth. As such I do not feel that an apology is necessary for the truth I had hoped to express. Arrogance? perhaps, but it could also be arrogance in accordance with what I have learned about God over the years.

Believe me when I tell you that I have a great understanding about the almighty. An understanding that comes from experience.

[edit on 5/2/2008 by whatukno]



posted on May, 2 2008 @ 06:33 PM
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reply to post by JesusisTruth
 




arrogant people as I have known my whole life... try and use their arrogant ass confidence and so on to get you to change your mind or think differently


"arrogant ass confidence" sounds like a pretty arrogant statement to me. Doesn't seem very humble at all now does it?



man I grew up in the slums, my bro was selling dimes and I seen it all and probably have wayyyyyyyy more street credit then these people who attack us


What does one's street cred have to do with anything? Are Christians some sort of street gang now? How many tear drops do you have tattooed under your eyes? Anyhoo...your street cred doesn't do you any good in cyberland friend. Here you have no cred.



whaaa is an athiest I think, it was a joke..


whaaa is an Atheist? Did you draw that conclusion because he didn't agree with your thoughts and ideas? Must he be an Atheist then? :shk:



he hates attitude, people thinking they are bad...


You can honestly say this after making the comment above: "my bro was selling dimes and I seen it all and probably have wayyyyyyyy more street credit then these people"

You are a walking contradiction aren't you? Fascinating......

[edit on 2-5-2008 by Excitable_Boy]



posted on May, 2 2008 @ 07:51 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


why is discouraging faith in god sinful? what's so vile about arguing positions of belief?

OK MIMS, fair question.

Faith in Christ for the cleansing and forgiveness of sin through what he did on the Cross is the one means God has provided that human beings can escape moral guilt and its consequences. Discouraging that faith can be detrimental to the eternal destiny of others - i.e. it is the opposite of the grace and love of God upon which it is based, and it is wickedness of a very high order.

Seeing as in the Cross God gave up what was most precious to Him for our sake, disparaging it in any way is a form of High Treason. Jesus actually warned that there is a sin that a man can commit which can never be forgiven, and it is in this realm. I tread on this ground with very great trepidation, as anyone guilty of this has gone beyond the point of no return, and if he then realises it, there is no remedy to utter utter despair and hopelessness.

The most famous example was Judas. Jesus referred to him as 'the son of destruction', who was now lost (John 17:12).

This is the ultimate of all worst fates, as in any other circumstances there is a possibility that someone might find forgiveness for their sins while they still live.

Even when Jesus warned about this he surrounded it with words of mercy, effectively saying: whatever you do don't do this. There is no way back.


"I assure you: People will be forgiven for all sins and whatever blasphemies they may blaspheme. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin..."

Mark 3:28&29

Anyone who has spent any time contemplating what eternity is should perceive that this is not to be trifled with.

This dire warning was issued in the context of a debate. 'Where does this man get power to perform miracles?' The debate arose because these people had witnessed him doing things that no other human could ever do.

Knowing full well that this same man taught only faith, love and hope towards God they deliberately, knowingly preferred to attribute his power to evil than to God, as it suited their agenda. Willful blindness compounded even further by teaching others to think like them.


...guilty of an eternal sin" - because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."

Mark 3:30

Debate, followed by teaching. No mass murder. Debate, teaching.

You may well say they were just arguing positions of belief. But no, their words were a reflection of their attitude towards God's kingdom - they were prepared to call it evil. Rightly God judged that if a person so rejects his light and mercy he will bare the weight of his own guilt. Sacrilege and hatred towards his own means of escape: wickedness and madness combined.

I am c e r t a i n l y not suggesting you have gone that far. I pray God neither you nor anyone reading this ever comes even close. I am, however replying directly to your question regarding how arguing a position can be vile in the sight of God. I specifically pointed out in my previous post that teaching / doing things to undermine faith in Christ is indeed gross sin against God, in whose hands your destiny beyond the grave lies.

A note of mercy: before becoming a disciple of Christ, the Apostle Paul did everything in his power to destroy the Christian faith and its adherents. He had also known a great deal about it. How on earth did he receive such mercy, then? He provides the answer himself:


Since it was out of ignorance that I had acted in unbelief, I received mercy, and the grace of our Lord overflowed...

1 Timothy 1:13b&14a

He didn't realise he was acting against God - he had actually thought he was serving him. Christ intervened for him, just like when he prayed for those who crucified him.


could you please address why "whoever does good things and makes the world a better place shall have a place in my kingdom" is strikingly absent?

I do apologise for not covering all your points previously. If you had seen the extreme haste in which my post was written you would have understood. Please bear with me. I have other things in my life.

This is a valid and common query. The answer is repeated throughout the Scriptures. Here is an example:


The LORD looks down from Heaven on the human race to see if there is one who is wise, one who seeks God. All have turned away; all alike have become corrupt. There is no one who does good, not even one.

Psalm 14:2&3

The God of infinite moral purity and perfection sees right through us, to the very core of our corrupt heart - even to depths beyond what we ourselves can perceive. And His concept of 'good' is totally different to ours.

I can only attempt a very poor illustration. If a member of the SS showed kindness to certain other people while perpetrating heinous crimes against humanity perhaps his colleagues could say he had done some good and made the world a better place for certain people. Their conscience having been hardened against their own crimes they would justify them in others and thus be able to talk of goodness in this individual.

Correspondingly, our own moral corruption and our blindness to it prevent us from understanding how people who seem good to us can be morally corrupt to God. If we were to judge we might say 'What a fine upstanding individual'. When God judges even our very very best actions are often exposed as motivated by pride, self-glorification, etc., to name but two. Even if this is not the case the weight of our moral vileness in God's estimation means our 'goodness', so-called, is so outweighed as to be laughable - it is just a total irrelevance (as in my simple illustration above).


All of us have become like something unclean, and all our righteous acts are like a polluted garment

Isaiah 64:6a


if god cares more about that then whether or not i lived a good life, i'd prefer to burn with gandhi than have eternal bliss with the faithful


You can't live a good life in God's eyes. There are only sinful people. Some seek and find forgiveness before death, some do not.

You have not grasped the utter despair and hopelessness of people who bear the weight of their moral corruption beyond the grave. It is total.

Praise God Christ took that weight off me. I am still sinful. But now forgiven.



posted on May, 2 2008 @ 10:10 PM
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Honestly I did not read much more than the title... We don't do anything with arrogant people... If you plant a seed then let it grow, don't force anything on anyone and turn the other cheek... Is this really so hard to understand?



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