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Revelations from the Holy Spirit

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posted on May, 15 2008 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by jimmyjackblack
But you forgot the part where god calls jesus god.
Plus there is a mention of the trinity, but it does not say trinity, it just names the components of the trinity.


god also calls satan a god
he calls wooden idols gods
he calls certain men god

and it wouldnt be far fetched because john 1:1 does call jesus a god

as for components, yes it does, several scriptures mention the god the son and the holy spirit, but none of them claim they are one.

abraham, isaac, and jacob are mentioned together numerous times. peter, james, and john are named together, are you going to say they are the same person?

take jesus´ baptism for example. it mentions all three characters in the same place, but they are different. if they are one then the story gets funny.

jesus gets baptised and sees himself take the form of a dove and descend upon himself, while he throws his voice to intently decieve those witnessing by saying ¨behold, my son¨




posted on May, 15 2008 @ 07:45 PM
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quirky double post sorry

[edit on 15-5-2008 by miriam0566]



posted on May, 16 2008 @ 12:25 AM
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reply to post by jimmyjackblack
 


We are a soul.
We become a soul as the combination of two things.
The material part and spirit of life, that comes from God.
I do not go along with the trinity. Sorry about that.
That is a human invention.
The multiplicity of God goes against the clear teaching of the Bible.
The trinity is supported only by torturing the text to make it conform to our human understanding.



posted on May, 16 2008 @ 02:47 AM
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Scriptures declaring the triune nature of God; That is One God, three distinct natures or parts.


25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth (Genesis 1:25-26)



22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)



3And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. (Ezekial 8:3)



5And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the LORD; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them (Ezekial 11:5)



67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying... (Luke 1:67



25And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. (Luke 2:25)




On the Divinity of Christ and His place in the Godhead; that is His eternal beginnings and part in creation.


9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesian 3:9



16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1Timothy 3:16



53Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:53-59



13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (John 14:13)



And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
(John 20:26-29)


And if you are still in doubt about the divinity of Jesus Christ or his place in the Godhead you only need read the first chapter of Hebrews; it pretty much says it all:


Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?


'nuff said?

[edit on 5/16/2008 by lightseeker]



posted on May, 16 2008 @ 05:39 AM
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Originally posted by lightseeker
Scriptures declaring the triune nature of God; That is One God, three distinct natures or parts.

Genesis 1:25-26


god was talking to jesus and the other angels. nowhere in those scriptures does it say he was talking to himself. neither does it mention a triune


(Genesis 3:22-23)


same exact context as before


Ezekial 8:3)


i dont understand how this proves the trinity


Ezekial 11:5


again, i fail to see how this proves the trinity


Luke 1:67


filled with holy ghost, not trinity


Luke 2:25


again, i fail to see how a person filled wth holy ghost is proof of the trinity


9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesian 3:9


jesus is also called a masterworker (or foreman). god is the architect, jesus is the foreman, how does that prove they are one?


16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1Timothy 3:16


yes, jesus is called a god in john 1:1, but jesus HAS to be a separate god because john 1:18 says no man hath seen god at any time.


54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
if jesus and god are one, then verse 54 contradicts itself


58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


considering that jesus is the firstborn of all creation, and god foreman, yes he would have been alive before abraham. again this proves nothing of a trinity


13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (John 14:13)


do you not glorify god for sending the son? again, no trinity



28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
(John 20:26-29)


almost except its written, My Lord, not LORD.

LORD and GOD are replacements for when the original transcripts had YHWH. LORD and Lord are literally talking about 2 different people


Hebrews 1
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


his son, not himself. how can he be appointed hier if it already belongs to him? and yes jesus did make the worlds, he is GOD´s foreman.



posted on May, 16 2008 @ 05:42 AM
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3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:


1kings 2:[19] Bath-sheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.

1 kings 22:[19] And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

1 chr 6:[39] And his brother Asaph, who stood on his right hand, even Asaph the son of Berachiah, the son of Shimea,

2 chr 18:[18] Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.

pss 16:[8] I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.

pss 110:[1] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
(remember what i said about LORD and Lord?)

1esdr 4:[29] Yet did I see him and Apame the king's concubine, the daughter of the admirable Bartacus, sitting at the right hand of the king,

matt 20:[21] And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. (2 of the apostles had their mother ask for predominate places in the kingdom)

[23] And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. (jesus says, i cant decide that, my father does. how would that make sense if it was a trinity?)

matt 22:[44] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?(quoting psalms)

matt 25:[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. [34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

matt 26:[64] Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

mark 10:[37] They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. [40] But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

mark 12:[36] For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. (so god told david that god told god that he would take god´s enemies god´s footstool. wait what?)

mark 15:[27] And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.

luke 20:[42] And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand

quoting any scripture about jesus sitting at the right hand of god is detrimental to the trinity, it only further proves they are separate people



posted on May, 16 2008 @ 05:43 AM
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4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.


being better than the angels doesnt mean he´s equal to god


5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?


again, father and son, not the same person


6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.


proof that jesus was created. even the context denotes 2 separate beings


8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


jesus himself is praising god, separate people


9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


god anointed jesus, not himself



'nuff said?


i think you harmed your case rather than help it.



posted on May, 18 2008 @ 01:38 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


How do you explain this?:


Mathew 28:19
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


And this:


John 10:30-38
30I and my Father are one.

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


It seems good O'l Yeshua is saying that He and God are on in the same "the Father is in me, and I in Him.".

Let's look at the other 3:16:


1 Timothy 3:16
16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


As you see from the above text "God was manifested in flesh".

Also, here we see that Yeshua is mad ehigher than the angels (what is higher than angels, but God?) and we see that God calls Yeshua God, this is very important, God did not just call anyone God, I would like to see the scriptures where He calls other beings, God, not a God as you sugjested, but God. I would like to see where God calls Satan God, not god, or a god, but God.


Hebrews 1:4-8
4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


Seriously though, why does it refer to God as being Elohim, the plural of Eloah if God is not three in one? Why is it so hard to believe, even text that are over 4,000 years old (The Book of Enoch) talk about everything that happens in the Bible, the Bible quotes it, plus it talks about a Trinity, yes the word Trinity is not mentioned, but the concept is over and over agian.

Plus, if Yeshua is God and the Holy Spirit is here to guide us, what is wrong with what I believe? Clearly Yeshua is God and the Holy Spirit is here to guide us as do the scriptures say, so what is the big deal?

I truely believe that this is true, there is no scripture that says this is a bad doctrine, plus I gave a revelation from the Holy Spirit, not just some idea, there is a big difference between just thinking something up and it being divinly revealed to you as I truely believe this has been.

-Jimmy



posted on May, 18 2008 @ 06:33 PM
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Originally posted by jimmyjackblack
How do you explain this?:


Mathew 28:19
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


ok, it mentions them in the same sentence. how would that mean they are the same person

exodus 3:[16] Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the same sentence, does that mean they are the same person. no of course not!



John 10:30-38
30I and my Father are one. 31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


It seems good O'l Yeshua is saying that He and God are on in the same "the Father is in me, and I in Him.".


lol, i think its like my third or forth time explaining this one. the answer is provided in the scripture.

look at verse 31. the jews are getting ready to stone him. why? verse 33, blasphemy. ¨that thou, being a man, makest thyself god.

so first we see that the jews did not believe in a trinity which is significant because they did follow the OT which was written by the same god that jesus worships. so much so that they were about to stone jesus for saying that him and the father are one.

so how did jesus reply? he quotes the scriptures.

psalms 82 is what he quoted.

particularly verse 6, [6] I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

the scripture is talking about men here. so jesus was telling them that its not blasphemy for a man to be called a god, but was he ascerting he was THE GOD?

verse36 you say of the who the father santified and sent into the world (john 13 (same book) :[16] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.) you blaspheme, because i said I am the son of god.

here plainly jesus is clarifying. jesus IS the son of GOD, he was created. jesus is also saying that for a human to be given a title of God is not blasphemy. God, not GOD.

verse 37 and 38 go into works. jesus says look at my works, they will tell you im sent from god.

by him saying they are one, he ment that they are united in purpose

genesis 2:[24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

ephesians 5:[31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

does this mean that a husband an wife literally become one flesh? no, of course not. they are united. they are one.







[edit on 18-5-2008 by miriam0566]



posted on May, 18 2008 @ 06:34 PM
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1 Timothy 3:16
16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


As you see from the above text "God was manifested in flesh".

Also, here we see that Yeshua is mad ehigher than the angels (what is higher than angels, but God?) and we see that God calls Yeshua God, this is very important, God did not just call anyone God, I would like to see the scriptures where He calls other beings, God, not a God as you sugjested, but God. I would like to see where God calls Satan God, not god, or a god, but God.


greek word for manifest
εφανερωθη verb - aorist passive indicative - third person singular
phaneroo fan-er-o'-o: to render apparent -- appear, manifestly declare, (make) manifest (forth), shew (self).

so the scripture is talking about being godly or acting in a holy way. it saying jesus provided a manifestation of the GOD we imitate by the way he acted. its not however saying that GOD showed himself in the flesh.

we know this because it is in harmony with john 1:[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (or made him manifest)

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as for jesus being higher than the angels, it is true he is, but this doesnt mean we can assume he is equal to GOD,

john 14:[28] Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

so jesus is higher than the angels, but god is still higher than jesus

1 corinthians 11:[3] But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

how is god the head of christ if they are the same?

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in this case ¨God¨ in verse 16 is GOD. Jesus makes him manifest through his actions. so no, he not actually calling jesus ¨God¨



posted on May, 18 2008 @ 06:34 PM
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Seriously though, why does it refer to God as being Elohim, the plural of Eloah if God is not three in one? Why is it so hard to believe, even text that are over 4,000 years old (The Book of Enoch) talk about everything that happens in the Bible, the Bible quotes it, plus it talks about a Trinity, yes the word Trinity is not mentioned, but the concept is over and over agian.


excerpt -
¨It is worthy of note that, in the Biblical Hebrew (as well as in many other languages, such as Yaqui) the customary grammatical "plurality" of a word is often simply that: a grammatical plural. The use of "plural" forms for singular nouns is common in the Hebrew Bible, and often connotes quintessence, uniqueness, or might rather than plurality (though it may connote both). Thus, the phrase "מלך מלכי המלכים" ("melekh maləkêi ha-məlâkhim") does not refer to "a king, kings of kings", but to "a king of unsurpassed kingship"; שיר השירים, ("shir ha-shirim") does not refer to "a song of songs", but to "a song that is the quintessential song"; ימים רבים ("yamim rabim") refers to "a great sea" as easily as to "great [or 'many'] seas". A clue to this is the Hebrew grammatical term for "plural": lâshon rabbim, meaning a term of grandiosities.¨

---------

and no the bible does not talk about the trinity, there are times when it talks about GOD, Jesus, and the holy spirit, and puts them in the same sentence, but that doesnt even imply they are one.

there are a few scriptures where jesus states he is one with the father, but the context always shows he´s talking about unity. usually also there is a scripture nearby with jesus making it clear they are separate.

so no i dont agree.


Plus, if Yeshua is God and the Holy Spirit is here to guide us, what is wrong with what I believe? Clearly Yeshua is God and the Holy Spirit is here to guide us as do the scriptures say, so what is the big deal?


Yeshua is not clearly God. if he was, he was contradicting himself all over the NT. Im sorry, but i dont believe the bible contradicts itself.


I truely believe that this is true, there is no scripture that says this is a bad doctrine, plus I gave a revelation from the Holy Spirit, not just some idea, there is a big difference between just thinking something up and it being divinly revealed to you as I truely believe this has been.

-Jimmy


no, there are no scriptures that say the trinity is wrong (that may be because the trinity wasnt even an idea amoung the apostles, we see that because the doctrine didnt even appear until around the 4th century)

but there are scriptures that warn against false teachings.

(new american standard)
1 john 4:[2] By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; [3]and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

its ironic that later gnostics would claim that jesus was never flesh and that jesus came in form that looked human. but the point is, it was a false teaching. it wasnt from god

i know you say that it was divinly revealed by spirit.

1 john 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

how can you try or test the spirit to see if its from god?

1 thes 2: [13] For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

-------------

basically it goes like this, if you have a teaching or a doctrine or belief that is not from the bible, that also contradicts the bible, how can it be from GOD who is a lover of truth?

im not attacking you, nor am i trying to convince you. you can believe whatever you´d like, however i am trying to show you that the trinity is not from god because it is not from the bible.


[edit on 18-5-2008 by miriam0566]



posted on May, 18 2008 @ 11:06 PM
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1 John 5:7


7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.



posted on May, 19 2008 @ 03:26 AM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy

1 John 5:7


7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


3rd or forth time explaining this one too, most of this information is in the OP of the mystery of the trinity thread

this scripture was made up. there were trinitarians in the 3rd century that would have killed to have a scripture like this. unfortunately it doesnt appear in any of the original greek transcripts.

it was changed in the latin vulgate and included in the king james.

the original read some like ¨there are 3 that bear witness¨

thats it... not mention of god, son or holy spirit, no mention of them being 3 but one.



posted on May, 19 2008 @ 06:29 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


Sorry, I didn't read all your posts, waaay too long, if it takes that long to explain, then I think something's wrong, in my personal opinion.


1 Johannes 5:7 (Luther Bibel 1545)
7Denn drei sind, die da zeugen: der Geist und das Wasser und das Blut;


That's from 1545, pretty long time ago from the good ol' Luther boy.


1 John 5:7 (Young's Literal Translation)
7because three are who are testifying [in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;


What was the rather old Mr. Young's translating the scripture from.

One thing you may want to take into concideration is the fact that the manuscripts you are probably reading are the Alexandrian ones, they are no good, they take away a lot of divinity from God and Yeshua, This was because of Alexanders lust for being like God (if I am thinking of the right person here), the Byzantine ones are better, they are more accurate.

I have a friend who has a Master's degree in theology, I'll ask him what his take on the verse is and the difference in translation (he can translate the whole bible from the original languages) and documentaion though.
What do you think of the Jehovah's Wittnesses? If you don't believe in the Trinity, you may want to read there bible (lol, however they mess around with the scriptures like most modern translations do.).
I think a fun read is the Amplified Bible or the Message Bible, those are the worst translations I've ever seen (primarily because they are full of wrong inferences). What's the worst/funniest translation you've seen?

Oh, btw, I'm not belittleing you or trying to seem condesinding or mean or anything, I know emotions and stuff don't carry well over the internet, I am enjoying this dialog.

-Jimmy

[edit on 19-5-2008 by jimmyjackblack]



posted on May, 19 2008 @ 06:37 PM
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And just for kicks The Message Bible LOL:


1 John 5:7 (the WTF? Translation)
6-8Jesus—the Divine Christ! He experienced a life-giving birth and a death-killing death. Not only birth from the womb, but baptismal birth of his ministry and sacrificial death. And all the while the Spirit is confirming the truth, the reality of God's presence at Jesus' baptism and crucifixion, bringing those occasions alive for us. A triple testimony: the Spirit, the Baptism, the Crucifixion. And the three in perfect agreement.



Oh man, that's hilarious, that has to be the most wrong thing I've ever heard.

-Jimmy



posted on May, 19 2008 @ 07:08 PM
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Originally posted by jimmyjackblack
Sorry, I didn't read all your posts, waaay too long, if it takes that long to explain, then I think something's wrong, in my personal opinion.


it taking long to explain because you are made alot of points for me to respond to. lol


1 Johannes 5:7 (Luther Bibel 1545)
7Denn drei sind, die da zeugen: der Geist und das Wasser und das Blut;

Do you speak german? you do realize that the scripture you just quoted says something to the effect of
¨For three are, that witness there: the spirit and the water and the blood;¨

nothing about god, son or ghost. and more importantly nothing about three being one.


1 John 5:7 (Young's Literal Translation)
7because three are who are testifying [in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;


New American Standard Bible -
For there are three that testify:

American Standard Version -
And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

Bible in Basic English
And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is true.

Darby Bible Translation
For they that bear witness are three:

English Revised Version
And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

World English Bible
For there are three who testify:

not convinced? how about the original greek lexicon

οτι (for) τρεις (three) εισιν (they are) οι (that) μαρτυρουντες(testify)

nothing about god, son, or holy spirit, nothing about three being one.



One thing you may want to take into concideration is the fact that the manuscripts you are probably reading are the Alexandrian ones, they are no good, they take away a lot of divinity from God and Yeshua, This was because of Alexanders lust for being like God (if I am thinking of the right person here), the Byzantine ones are better, they are more accurate.


normally yes i say which transcripts you use matters, but in this case no, because the scripture (as found in the King Jame version) is not found in any transcripts dated before the 4th century.


I have a friend who has a Master's degree in theology, I'll ask him what his take on the verse is and the difference in translation (he can translate the whole bible from the original languages) and documentaion though.


that would be awesome


What do you think of the Jehovah's Wittnesses?


i think they follow the bible more than anyone i know. even baptists (whom i also have alot of respect for)


If you don't believe in the Trinity, you may want to read there bible (lol, however they mess around with the scriptures like most modern translations do.).
alot have people have made that claim, but i havent found many that can back it up

when i studied with them, they let me use my KJV during the study, and i actually saw little difference. theres has Jehovah in it alot more but thats only because the older transcripts had it in there.

theirs is the only bible ive seen thats translated john 1:1 correctly though


I think a fun read is the Amplified Bible or the Message Bible, those are the worst translations I've ever seen (primarily because they are full of wrong inferences). What's the worst/funniest translation you've seen?


www.ebonics-translator.com...

LOL


Oh, btw, I'm not belittleing you or trying to seem condesinding or mean or anything, I know emotions and stuff don't carry well over the internet, I am enjoying this dialog


oh im not, dont worry.

dont think im trying to change your mind either. i believe certain things, and unless i have proof otherwise ill continue believing that. im not going to water it down and say maybe this or maybe that. i have no problem with saying i disagree with you. im sure you feel the same way...



posted on May, 19 2008 @ 07:56 PM
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Originally posted by jimmyjackblack
And just for kicks The Message Bible LOL:


1 John 5:7 (the WTF? Translation)
6-8Jesus—the Divine Christ! He experienced a life-giving birth and a death-killing death. Not only birth from the womb, but baptismal birth of his ministry and sacrificial death. And all the while the Spirit is confirming the truth, the reality of God's presence at Jesus' baptism and crucifixion, bringing those occasions alive for us. A triple testimony: the Spirit, the Baptism, the Crucifixion. And the three in perfect agreement.



Oh man, that's hilarious, that has to be the most wrong thing I've ever heard.

-Jimmy


Just curious but what is so wrong about it? I mean, aside from taking a long time to say what could have been said in half as many words. I can agree with the theology involved; it's just that life-giving birth and death-killing death stuff that causes me to scatch my head and go, "huh"?



posted on May, 19 2008 @ 08:53 PM
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Yeah guys, I knew 1 John 5:7 was a contentious verse, that's why I just threw it out there without saying much
I figured miriam was going to have a field day debunking it. It only shows up in the KJV intact like that and others have it as a note, most likely it was an addition made by scribes after the fact.



posted on May, 21 2008 @ 06:06 PM
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reply to post by lightseeker
 


Lol, well first of all, all it is, is inference, there is absolutly no scripture there, just inferences made from verses 6-8.



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