First of all, I love this topic, and I hate to sound contrary. But every single comment I’ve read on this has left me confused and in disagreement.

What you are calling “reality” is what I would call “perception”.

I believe that reality doesn’t matter what you think of it. You can have a misperception about truth. Perhaps everyone perceives something wrongly. But “truth” doesn’t care. It remains true, regardless of what people believe. (I assume here that “reality” and “truth” are precisely the same.)

Yes, I know that quantum mechanics goes into a lot of detail saying that certain truths are generated only upon observation of something. And quantum theorists give a name for this, calling it “quantum collapse”. But I’ve always felt there was a huge misunderstanding about that statement, which is really just saying that the future doesn’t exist until you experience it; I don’t think there is really anything much more to quantum collapse than that.

So I have to disagree with the premise of this thread. To me it doesn’t really move us forward in a productive way. It is just confusing doublethink.

Take a look at a glass of water. Then say, “the water creates the glass.” In a weird sense – that is true. Without the water, the glass has no purpose. But most people would say that the water is contained in the glass. Likewise, consciousness is contained in reality.

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To me, the real issue is what physical truths and aspects of reality do we not know about, which permits consciousness to exist? Is there perhaps some other hidden dimension to our existence that we can actually detect and work with?

All that said, this is a great thread. I'm reading every comment carefully, and looking still at the extensive info in the OP.

Originally posted by Buck Division
I believe that reality doesn’t matter what you think of it. You can have a misperception about truth. Perhaps everyone perceives something wrongly. But “truth” doesn’t care. It remains true, regardless of what people believe.

That is because you...ehem.. perceive it that way. Get it?

This is why certain scientist is actually a spiritual person, and from their words you can tell that they also dwell on the spiritual side on things, and not just fixating on the exact (visible) but also on the subtle truth.

Originally posted by Jazzyguy
That is because you...ehem.. perceive it that way. Get it?

I think I get your point. I think it is wrong.

With respect, Jazzy, no no no. This whole argument is not productive. It leads people, who believe they can fly in some '___' induced delusion, to jump off of buildings and plummet to their death.

Reality has a bite. A bad one sometimes. Reality does not matter what we think of it. It is real. The illusion exists only in our mind. We try to get as close to reality as we can. In general, that serves us very well.

And when we deny reality, or think we control what is real, we are just opening the door to pain and suffering. It doesn't serve us at all.

So, as you can see -- I am kind of adamant about making this point.

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Now I will concede that we are still a long way from any sort of perfect understanding, and there are a lot of things we think are true that are actually false. I don't want you to think I am being arrogant (which is maybe how I sound.) On this one particular point, that reality is NOT an illusion, I think I'm right.

Whatever paradigm shift we experience will move us closer to a reality that has always existed, but which we have been unaware of. We will be shaped by an unchanging eternal reality -- not the other way around.

Edit: I wanted to add that, in my opinion, your last comment about scientists and spirituality is 100% correct. I would say that spirits are real, that is my educated guess. So I think we can agree on that point


[edit on 29-4-2008 by Buck Division]

Please excuse this response but:
Why oh why does this make me want to listen to Tool?


Goood music.

I hope you are right about a paradigm shift we could certainly use one.

One thing that always comes up for me when this subject is discussed is the apparent impossiblity for either spoken or written language including math to capture reality or truth but merely proximate experience.

Experience can be collective and individual.

I long for a day that may never come... I hope for progress in human nature so that the sanctity of all life is realized and the level of what is acceptable for human behavior is raised out of this barbaric state where passions are given free reign to create this loop tape of misery we seem to be repeating over and over ad infinitum.

Just my 2 cents.

This is a great thread, stuff I have pondered myself often during meditation. And also some excellent posts by Buck.

I think the toughest thing to do is to is separate our perception from true reality. I think this is really where the paradigm shift may occur. I think once we understand reality better, which is where quantum physics comes in. We will be better suited to live in harmony with the true nature of reality and being. When this happens, gone will be the days of unabashed ego, outlandish selfishness and greed, and political and religious dogma skewing our perception of what is true and real.

As for controlling reality, I think the more we understand it truths, the more we will be able to utilize them in our favor. I think the laws of attraction fits in with these truths. The important thing to understand with that is that it works in a push/pull balance, so you can't just pull the object of your desire to you. You also have push your way to that object as well and meet somewhere in the center.

Anyway, I could go on and on, but I have to listen to Lateralus and get some sleep.

[edit on 30-4-2008 by frailty]

Originally posted by thehumbleone
I'm telling you guys, reality is like a dream. There is the majority of people who can't control their dreams, and then there is the rare few who learn how to "Lucid dream" and CAN control their dreams and make their own reality.

[edit on 29-4-2008 by thehumbleone]

I like your point. The dreams can be interpreted and be determined of what's happening in your life currently and later on in life. If you remember a bit of your dream, ask yourself questions and write down of what the possible meanings it has. You have dreams for a reason.

I can control my dreams to some extent but not all the time. For nightmareish dreams I can control most of them. For normal dreams I plainly have a hard time focusing on what dream I want to focus on.

I get the distinct impression that the state of the world causes some people to wish they could just stop it and get off. They have no idea how to fix things and see only more more problems heading this way. So since they can't cope with this situation they turn to some spiritual guidance be it God (love the link between ZPF and God , stull utter nonsense though) or they believe that this is not "the" reality. We are all living in a Matrix world which will change for the better.

Sorry folks, reality check . There is no God and this IS reality entirely the product of Humans. That means all the good and bad is of our own making. It's time to get off your butts, stop moaning, and DO SOMETHING. Wallowing in self pity hoping for a new "reality" achieves nothing. Even if you believe that what you are doing is having an insignificant effect you would be suprised what effect a million of you will have! Complain to the politicians, highlight the lying press, do not accept c...p from anybody, do what is morally right (you do not need God there is only ONE absolute rule, ironically enough a shortened variant of it is in the bible!). The bible thumpers can't cope with the full rule!

Now back to work to pay the mortgage, another reality check

To expand on the Humbleones idea, and put it into the context of the thread. Here is what I believe:

We goto sleep. We dream. We dream entire worlds into being. We dream entire people into being. We dream entire stories into being. When we wake up we realize it was an illusion, an illusion in the sense that we were One, and not the Many separate dream creations i.e the creator of the Dream itself. The world, and it's characters, illusions of the dream creators Mind.

Similarly, I believe the Creator of Everything, all of Us, and the Universe, is dreaming all of This into being.

What happens when the Creator wakes up? Does it realize the same illusions as we, the Many, do when we wake up from our nights' dreams?

I believe we are all the manifestations of a Big Dream, from One.

"We will be shaped by an unchanging eternal reality -- not the other way around."



Wow, awesome quote! Indeed you are right, sir! There is a truth that has always existed and is eternal, we are yet to fully find it. Though through this search we are indeed part of a changing mental paradigm that exists of eternity and if all intellectual species experience this at some point in their evolution then I'd presume that there is also a changing eternal reality, only that in THAT reality is where the delusion and illusion actually take place! The reality that does not have a full understanding of existence is the illusion.

God merely equates to goodness, and Devil to evil. These are emotional choices that we can make as Human beings so that we can respect one another better and the planet and all of existence better. The universe consists of both.

So there are three factors here. The universe which is in essence a neutral, then the choice of Good and Evil through sentient beings such as ourselves.

And to mix it up even more, but only to stay on the topic of truth!: Choice is only an illusion at the macro level as we are only a by-product and reaction of our environment as our environment is the same to us no matter how you look at it!

As for personal responsibility, the blame is only on ourselves! In some odd way we still have choice and decision to change this planet and our civilization, or maybe it is simply the reaction of us wanting to survive so we choose the most viable and logical path... that which in essence was already mapped for us because our genes evolved to want to survive, thus the path of destruction, corruption, lies and delusion ultimately leads to a goal self preservation which in turn brings back love, goodness and truth as the only optional choice for such preservation to happen!

[edit on 30-4-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

But this Earth, this "reality", these people and places, existed before I did, before I was born into this world.. into this flesh.

How do you explain that if we truly create our surroundings from what we intend and perceive mentally?

Did someone will me into existence? Who on Earth would do such a thing?

While I enjoy reading these types of threads, I dont involve myself much in them for the reason that some things are figured out in contemplation/meditation rather than chatter.

The mind sometimes behaves like a cat chasing its own tail. Its capability to perceive is limited to the five senses and its earthly surroundings. While its interesting to talk about all this at length and publish stuff on it and so forth, there comes a time when one actually wants to experience what is talked about and written about.

In this spirit I´ll ask all you experts: How you you personally experience consciousness-as-cause-of-reality?

you know, i believe this theory.

it's weird but i read in this ufo book where this alien entity was being channeled and this alien says the same thing - "There is only one rule of physical existence - we create our individual realities through our thoughts, attitudes and beliefs. Events don't happen to us; we cause them by what we expect to see in our world and our lives. Every event we encounter and participate in is a reflection of what we think and feel."