Shell's profit soars to record $9 billion

reply to post by dbates


Thats a pretty big amount to tax someone. I havnt read the whole thread, but would I be wrong in guessing that the oil companies are making lots and lots off the recent price rises?

-fm

reply to post by funky monk


I don't know what that number he provides consists of. It's not an income tax - the income tax rate on these companies is around 40%.

Possibly he's talking about import tariffs? I know we pay a ton on sales tax.

*Edit:

Hmm, gas prices double and net sales double. Earning ratio doubles, and net income quadruples. Yeah, poor gas companies.

[edit on 29-4-2008 by Sublime620]

reply to post by Sublime620


Plus you can not forget the millions of dollars that they spend on lobbying in Washington getting more incentives from the tax payer.

Since 2001, energy corporations have showered federal politicians with $115 million in campaign contributions—with three-quarters of that amount going to Republicans. This cash helped secure energy companies and their lobbyists exclusive, private access to lawmakers, starting with Vice-President Dick Cheney’s Energy Task Force, whose report provided the foundation of the energy bill passed by Congress and signed by President Bush on August 8.

www.citizen.org...

They need all the money the can get their hands on, Congress seems to be quite expensive when it comes to lobbying charging.

reply to post by marg6043


Yes, I assume that's actually hidden in investments or some sort of charitable donation (that they'll get tax breaks off of).

*edit

And you can see how they pay congress back, marg. As I showed a few posts back, they spend quite a bit of money making sure they stockholders get a higher earnings per share ratio and dividends.

Much of Congress holds stocks in these companies.

[edit on 29-4-2008 by Sublime620]

[edit on 29-4-2008 by Sublime620]

I didn't read thru the whole 4 pages, but if no one said it... we should'nt put too much of the blame on the oil companies.

I think most of the blame lies with The Federal Reserves attack on the US Dollar... lower interest rates coupled with pumping more and more money into the system leading to a massive de-valuation.

So... in order to maintain normal profit margins, then the actual total of profits would increase, b/c it is worth less, imo. (or worthless).

Do you guys actually think that the main stream media is acting for the benefit of the well-informed American by playing on the emotions concerning high oil company profits?

This is the same media that drummed up the war in Iraq, the same media that hyped up the housing bubble, the same media that hyped up the dot-coms. These guys (and their owners) are playing on our emotions so that slapping fat taxes on oil companies would be politically inevitable.

For all you railing against these oil companies, lets take a deep breath and properly focus our anger.

Notice from Sublime's posted spreadsheets who is making the biggest windfall of them all. The government.

The government is the one making the fattest profit. Yea our fearless government that started this oil price increase by screwing over our dollar and by stomping around the middle-east.

What is worse is that the oil companies don't actually pay the taxes charged by the government. YOU DO!! Higher gas prices, less employment, moving jobs offshore, are some of the ways that oil companies (and any company) passes on the costs of taxation.

Not only does the government tax your income, they tax you through higher prices at the pump. Why does congress get to whine about oil company profits and at the same time their members own (or are owned by) oil stocks? They know that the oil companies aren't really paying for any taxes and they know that applying taxes to oil companies is politically easy. We are being suckered on a magnitude that boggles the mind.

The government is making windfalls every way to Saturday by this oil situation mainly created by the government itself. Why the hell am I only getting a $600 rebate anyways?

So when you fill up at the pump, think of all the government programs and international endeavors that you are paying for.

I caught chevron station trying to rip me off for real.

One way for sure to make a profit is to sell more oxy-Fuel. (oxygenated unleaded fuel(RFG) Where I live all the stations start selling oxy-fuel around October then are suppose to switch back to the standard fuel in February .This is for environmental standards imposed by the EPA and the city in which I live. I never fill up oxy fuel because you lose about 2 miles per gallon no matter what kind of vehicle you have. You also have to take into account that epa sticker was tested with the standard fuel not oxy-fuel (RFG )
Well there still selling oxy- fuel where I live, and it’s going to be May this week. All the stations were suppose to stop selling oxy-fuel in February. So I asked a few station managers why they are still selling it. My reply from every manager and these stations was. “ The Company that supplies us has requested that we continue selling Oxy-Fuel , So we are” that is what every manager told me to the letter, like a pre-written script . I smell a Rat , I could not believe I received the same answer from 5 gas stations managers what is going on here? So they all get the same fuel from the same refinery that’s obvious. Chevron was selling oxy- fuel last week, then this week I went to this same Chevron and asked if they were selling the standard fuel yet ? I was told “yes” by the attendant, and he also mentioned that the manager removed the oxy- fuel stickers from the pumps after closing last night”. which I noticed. So I figure I’ll come back tomorrow and fill up since I only live 2 miles away. Well the next day I went to fill up and the gas station attendant came over and told me that there is only oxy-fuel . I asked him when was the last time the station tanks were filled. He replied “ Just this morning , all the tanks are filled with oxy-fuel.
You guys see my point here. The manager removed the stickers from the pumps like there suppose to when the oxy- fuel is no longer being sold. But in this case there still selling oxy-fuel with the oxy fuel stickers removed. You think your getting the standard 87 unleaded grade but you’re not , you’re getting a fuel that that will give 2-miles less per gallon. So I closed the cap thanked him for the warning and proceed out of town once again to get the standard grade stuff. Also I have read reports that states oxy- fuel is more expensive to make and refine. My guess after this is No , No way…. No how.. If it was ; then why are the suppliers still dumping this oxy- fuel ? And yet ask stations to still sell it.

Wait. The oil prizes are rising, because officially everything became more expensive for the oil companies. In this case, it's impossible to achieve profit, especially high profit, like this one. So, as I see the Governments, whose are in the oil business are lied again. There is nothing wrong at all. They risen the prizes on why not bases and figure out a cover story for it.

Oh, so proud I am of my country and its biggest cooperation that was founded over imperialism and opression. Making insane profits while people are starving.
And today it is "queensday" here in Holland, were all the happy and proud Dutchmen celebrate our great queen's birthday.
Our great Royal Familly that has had blood on their hands for centuries, that likes to take in Nazis into the family, and start nice social clubs for the rich and powerfull, in hotel "Bilderberg".
I used to be proud to be Dutch, right now, I see nothing to be proud off. I am filled with digust, more and more every day.

Broderick Johnson represents Shell as a lobbyist. Guess who he's working with?
Oh, Obama, right... Good thing there is no place for lobbyist in his White House...

They are nothing but blood sucking leeches... the whole lot of them...

It is always about the money, and I hope they choke on it...

reply to post by wutone

Originally posted by wutone
For all you railing against these oil companies, lets take a deep breath and properly focus our anger.

Notice from Sublime's posted spreadsheets who is making the biggest windfall of them all. The government.

The government is the one making the fattest profit. Yea our fearless government that started this oil price increase by screwing over our dollar and by stomping around the middle-east.

The federal gas tax is 18.4 cents per gallon. Your state also taxes each gallon you buy. The rate varies from 7.5 cents in Georgia to 31.9 cents in NY. Average of about 20 cents, I'd guess.

www.gaspricewatch.com...

Taxes of 18 cents on a price of $3.50 don't seem excessive, imo.

Originally posted by wutone
What is worse is that the oil companies don't actually pay the taxes charged by the government. YOU DO!!

...the same as the fact that YOU also pay the tax on the eggamuffin or bottle of beer or the hoopdee that you drive. I don't see your point?

Originally posted by nyk537

Originally posted by Sublime620
They have the oil, they're making the money.

However, if I had to start pointing fingers, I would begin with the environmental whack jobs who prevent us from harvesting the oil we have right here in our own country.

Since I haven't read through the entire thread yet if this has already been covered, I apologize.

You say environmental whackjobs, but you failed to mention the the right wing controlled the White House, and both branches of congress for several years, so they (republicans) should have been able to get the drilling going, not to mention the construction of new refineries. To me, the notion that left wing whackjobs are responsible for the price of gas, is false, all of them have their fingers in the pot.

There is a thread here with video links to a guy named Lindsey Williams, whom claims that we can't drill in Alaska. If what he claims is true, we are in deep doo doo. If you haven't seen the videos I recommend you take the hour and twenty minutes and do so. As I said, if his claims are true, things are going to get a lot worse, before they get better, if they ever do.

reply to post by jsobecky


Thank you, jsobecky.

While wutone is correct that the government is collecting a pretty fat check, that does not let anyone else off the hook.

I have clearly shown with Exxon's own financial statements that since prices have gone up, production costs have remained almost the same.

That is why even though prices have only doubled, NI has quadrupled.

I have shown they spend 4 times as much on making their earnings per share look better by buying back common stock than they do on "investing in oil and equipment" (as so many claim they do). Also, they give out nice dividends. So any heavy stock holder is definitely reaping the benefits.

So I just don't understand the argument on this thread. What exactly are we discussing here?

Originally posted by theBLESSINGofVISION
Well of course it did...

Gas prices go up = profits up.
these crooks must be stopped!
We need a hero because we arent standing up for ourselves fast enuff...

[edit on 4/29/2008 by theBLESSINGofVISION]

Gas prices being up does not result in profit, in fact refiners make more money when oil is falling because of supply line, and FILO (first in last out). It's called a crack spread, please learn about how the industry works before contributing and spreading ignorance. We also don't know what futures the company held, if they bought a futures contract to buy oil (assuming they couldn't meet refiner demand) for $80 and they are selling it to refiners like Valero at $120 they are making the difference in profit....it only costs something like $5 to pump one barrel of oil...Shell sells it at the market price which is dollar denominated and that at the NYMEX and ICE.

[edit on 30-4-2008 by yellowcard]

reply to post by yellowcard


This seems to indicate that the real cause of the price jump is a function of speculating mechanics. So the actual cost to the consumer is driven by how successfully THEY gamble. Again, making the issue of skyrocketing prices a direct correlation to profiteering. There is a missing element in the equation though isn't there? Who 'determines' the price and is it based on anything 'real'? Or is it all 'too complex'?

"Hey I have some oil, wanna buy it?"
"Sure, how much?"

Ooooh, rocket science!

While the business practices may be accepted - that does not make them 'right.' In their defense, unless the whole issue of the human condition is pointless and hardships don't matter squat as long a profit can be secured.

I must say that this has been one of the most informed post that has been read here lately. Picked up a lot of new knowledge and insight. Thats why I like ATS and return as much as i do. This is better than main stream media.

reply to post by Maxmars

Originally posted by Maxmars
reply to post by yellowcard

 

This seems to indicate that the real cause of the price jump is a function of speculating mechanics. So the actual cost to the consumer is driven by how successfully THEY gamble. Again, making the issue of skyrocketing prices a direct correlation to profiteering. There is a missing element in the equation though isn't there? Who 'determines' the price and is it based on anything 'real'? Or is it all 'too complex'?

Maxmars raises some interesting questions. This will take a little research, but I think we should take a look at what the component costs of a barrel of oil are, and of a gallon of gasoline.

There have been various theories put forth here as to what makes up the cost of fuel. They include

Pulling it out of the ground

Transporting the crude to the refineries

Transporting to the end consumer

Taxes.

Among this are the "nebulous" costs which are hard to put a finger on:

The competition in bidding between nations, esp. China, India, and the USA

Price and production controls by OPEC, etc.

The role of speculators and how they add to the bottom line cost.

Some of these costs are pretty well "fixed", after the infrastructure such as refineries are in place. But what the hell drives the cost of oil up $25/barrel in the period of a few weeks?

So, ladies and germs, who are the real bandits here? And what percentage of the total price are they responsible for? Let's have some real numbers, please.

reply to post by Sublime620


Sorry to leave you hanging like that. Here's what I was referring to. I misspoke. They only pay about 41% in taxes. I was looking at this chart incorrectly. This is in comparison to their profits. Not taxes on their profits.

Anyway, that's a lot of tax. The government makes nearly as much as they do on the oil.


seekingalpha.com...

I found an interesting, easy to read article about the role of "speculators" in the oil markets. Here's an excerpt:

Slick operators
How hedge funds, traders, and Big Oil are really driving gas prices.
FORTUNE Magazine
By Nelson D. Schwartz and Jon Birger, FORTUNE
May 18, 2006: 3:36 PM EDT

(FORTUNE Magazine) - On a sunny May day in an office park in the Surrey countryside outside London, a Ferrari-driving hedge fund manager named Aref Karim is scooping up contracts to buy oil in July for $75 a barrel, $3 more than it's currently selling for. His company, QCM, has garnered more than $125 million in fresh cash since the beginning of the year, and he's itching to keep it at work.

A few hundred miles to the south in Paris, on the trading floor of Societe Generale Asset Management, Arnaud Chretien's team of Ph.D.s and engineers operates in near silence, with powerful computers buying and selling commodities according to preset algorithms, taking advantage of swift movements in everything from heating oil and gasoline to zinc and copper.

money.cnn.com...

And another excerpt, a synopsis of why oil prices are so high:

Bottom line

So why then is oil so expensive? While financial activity plays some role, there needn't be anything nefarious about the motivations of these market participants, each of which is operating perfectly rationally.

The bigger answer to the oil price run-up seems to be the one nobody wants to accept: supply and demand. Because energy demand is so inelastic - consumers don't quickly change their consumption habits when prices go up - and new supply takes so long to come online (Exxon's multibillion-dollar Sakhalin-1 project took a decade to reach production), small changes can have an outsized impact on price, especially in a tight market. And that's exactly what's happening now with oil.

This would indicate that nyk was on the money when he suggested that more drilling would have a beneficial effect.