Freemasonry and Satanic Ritual Abuse

Originally posted by jaamaan
Monarch was a subproject of MKULTRA i think.

OK. You won't mind if I wait for something a little more definite? It makes it hard to address a point otherwise.

Originally posted by jaamaan
So where did i state i am a researcher, or did you mean to compliment me?

No i am pretty far from a good researcher i dare say.
I am just a member of a discussion forum and i post certain articles that catch my interest.
And i dont think by posting an article and give my opinion on it does obligate me to say any thing "with certainty"

Everyone's a researcher who goes looking. You're making a cause-and-effect connection in your OP so I don't think it's being too out of line to ask for some more understanding of what led you to this opinion?

Originally posted by Choronzon
MKULTRA has nothing to do with freemasonry as the topic of the discussion denotes.

I was only replying to someone when i mentioned MKULTRA.
It was ment, and stated i believe, to show that there is ritual abuse in connection with the surpressed memory syndrome.
And that abuse is usualy denied before substantial proof.

Excuses if what i wrote looked like me making a "real" connection between masons and MKULTRA.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
so I don't think it's being too out of line to ask for some more understanding of what led you to this opinion?

That sounds quite different than:

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
So which one was it? Again, as a researcher, you should be able to say with certainty which it was and why it's applicable to the assertion.

But anyway

Like i said i used MKULTRA only in an example stated above.
I have no knowledge whatsoever of a connection between MKULTRA and masons.
It might be there, but not that i am aware of.

Originally posted by Choronzon
If you indeed seek the truth instead of one-sided slander/libel, (which it sounds like you do). Then to find the source of the anti-masonic satanic/luciferian myths you would HAVE to be knowledgable about the following subjects:

1. (1300s) The Knights Templar Confessions
   
2. * The Knights Templars exonheration of these charges by the catholic church.
   
3. (1828 - 1838) Anti-Masonic Party
   
4. (1890) The Leo Taxil hoax
   

I have been reading your links and want to thank you for the information.
Some of the information you gave could point to the fact that masons have been hunted down by murdering and sladering them trough the ages.
It could well be that a lot of anti mason sentiment still has it's roots there.

I am still somewhat puzzled by the fact that there are so many people today claiming they where victim of masonic ritual abuse.

Some remember their fathers taking them to Masonic meetings and rituals occurring on the characteristic black and white checkered floors. Other survivors have done art work describing their abuse, in which Masonic and satanic symbols are interwoven. Some of Ann-Marie Germain's conversations with her father, which support her memories of having been Masonically and satanically abused were recently published in Margaret Smith's book Ritual Abuse (HarperSanFrancisco, 1993).
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here is an other thread that i found that is looking into these matters.

Originally posted by jaamaan

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
so I don't think it's being too out of line to ask for some more understanding of what led you to this opinion?

That sounds quite different than:

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
So which one was it? Again, as a researcher, you should be able to say with certainty which it was and why it's applicable to the assertion.

But anyway

Like i said i used MKULTRA only in an example stated above.
I have no knowledge whatsoever of a connection between MKULTRA and masons.
It might be there, but not that i am aware of.

Less straightforward perhaps but the underlying question remains. And since you have "no knowledge whatsoever of a connection between MKULTRA and masons", can you appreciate that citing it and then retracting undercuts the rest of your post? If I make a connection between Masons and Flying Purple People Eaters, I don't think it's unreasonable to show some reasonable connection in my first post instead of waiting to be called on it.

Originally posted by Choronzon

1. (1300s) The Knights Templar Confessions
   
2. * The Knights Templars exonheration of these charges by the catholic church.
   
3. (1828 - 1838) Anti-Masonic Party
   
4. (1890) The Leo Taxil hoax
   

It look like it that there where many americans supporting this "anti masonic party" that you mention.
So the anti mason sentiment is not only of this time.

The event created great excitement, and led many to believe that not just the local lodge but that all Freemasonry was in conflict with good citizenship. Because judges, businessmen, bankers, and politicians were often Masons, ordinary citizens began to think of it as an elitist group. Moreover, many argued that the lodges' secret oaths bound the brethren to favor each other against outsiders, in the courts as well as elsewhere. Because the trial of the Morgan conspirators was mishandled, and the Masons resisted further inquiries, it became an article of faith[citation needed] of its opponents that Masonic judges would not sentence and Masonic juries would fail to convict fellow members of the order. They considered the Masons to be an exclusive organization taking unfair advantage of common folk and violating the essential principles of democracy. True Americans, they said, had to organize and defeat this conspiracy.
en.wikipedia.org...

In the elections of 1828 the new party proved unexpectedly strong, and after this year it practically superseded the National Republican party in New York.
en.wikipedia.org...

Where all these people wrong ?

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
And since you have "no knowledge whatsoever of a connection between MKULTRA and masons", can you appreciate that citing it and then retracting undercuts the rest of your post?

No where in this thread did a make a real connection between MKULTRA and masons.

If you still think so than please point out to me where i said that, thank you.

The Illuminati, a dualist philosophy (associated with Satanism) developed in the
18th century. They allegedly infiltrated secret societies including Freemasonry.
67% of survivors in M. Smith's study said their ritual abuse perpetrators
allegedly belonged to either secret societies or fraternal organizations (33% of
alleged perpetrators were Masons).
www.atlantis2012.com...
*

margaret smith. Ritual Abuse: What It Is, Why It Happens, and How to Help




*

Note: This is an outline only, please do not use information out of context and
without written permission. Please use caution while reading, it may be
triggering.
www.atlantis2012.com...

I believe i am allowed by the "The Fair-Use Statute" to post a very small portion of the information on the site for educational purposes, right?

Originally posted by jaamaan

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here is an other thread that i found that is looking into these matters.

Interesting that it petered-out nearly 3 years ago without the OP addressing this post?

Kind of telling as for the threads value in supporting your argument

Originally posted by jaamaan

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here is an other thread that i found that is looking into these matters.

Interesting that it petered-out nearly 3 years ago without the OP addressing this post?

Kind of telling as for the threads value in supporting your argument

reply to post by jaamaan


Attention Mods. Could someone be so kind as to delete one or the other of my double posts? For some twisted reason, Firefox doesn't show either of them.


TIA
Fitz

Originally posted by jaamaan
Where all these people wrong ?

Since whether Morgan actually was in fact the victim of foul play, in a word, Yes.

That said, you really should be more forthcoming when linking. I guess this bit of the wiki entry eluded your attention:

"The growth of the anti-Masonic movement was due more to the political and social conditions of the time than to the Morgan episode, which was merely the catalyst. Under the banner of "Anti-Masons" able leaders united those who were discontented with existing political conditions. The fact that William Wirt, their choice for the presidency in 1832, was not only a Mason but even defended the Order in a speech before the convention that nominated him, indicates that mere opposition to Masonry was by no means the central premise of the political order."

HTH
Fitz

Originally posted by bushidomason
reply to post by cutbothways

 

I think you have some deep-seeded hatred towards the masons. You don’t want to even think about the possibility of masons being one bit of good and that concerns me. I would just like to ask why you try to write slander and oppose the masons so much? Of course it is in your own rights to say whatever you want, this is just a question.

Tell me all your secrets.

Your right, the Masons and I go way back.

cutbothways,

Your reply is more than a little on the enigmatic side. How about enlightening the board with something a little more forthcoming vis a vis you and Masonry?

reply to post by cutbothways


From your replies mate, I honestly doubt you have any Masonic connections what so ever.

Which leads me inta wondering why exactly you hate those guys so much?

Where you personally wronged by a Freemason?

I'm not the one who belongs to the secret society that include the US first president, and many contributors to the constitution.

As far as proving myself. I really don't care what the Baphomet lovers think.

I have the scars to prove my name. That is where I'll leave it.

By the way, I didn't go into some brotherly love forum to vent my (yes hatred) towards the masons, I came to a conspiracy forum.

If you boys aren't man enough to handle a little mason bashing, maybe you should go to a lodge meeting or something, instead of spending all you time in these forums that are put out there for those of us who DON'T LIKE MASONS.

Especially military masons.

[edit on 29-4-2008 by cutbothways]

reply to post by cutbothways


There's another side to this coin. Beth Loftus, Professor in Psychology at University of Washington, former President of the American Psychological Society, and author of numerous peer reviewed journal articles as well as several books, and one in particular called "The Myth of Repressed Memory", has done a tremendous amount of work in this field. Her research suggests that many of these so called "repressed memories" should be treated as highly suspect because they are not reliable nor valid in many cases.

This is not to say that these horrible cases of abuse don't occur, because they do. What it did speak to was the by and large myth of ritual satanic abuse, and most people in the field from acadademia to practice would agree with the post in this thread stating how incredibly rare it is.

A few trips to the library, and a couple hours of digging and reading would yield this for the thread starter...and while I'm not a big fan of the Masons, I for one find it in poor taste that someone would serve up a thread based on incomplete and dated information along with a dose of conjecture and heresay as though it were set in stone.



[edit on 29-4-2008 by skyshow]

Baphomet was not used by the occult until 1854 by Aleister Crowley.

Most modern scholars agree that baphomet did not exist before the knight templars were tortured, and that it is a mis-translation of the french pronounciation of the arabaic word Abufihamat/Mahomet/Muhammad.

Edit: The fictional Baphomet character was also popularized by Leo Taxils Hoax in the 1890's to further the anti-masonic movement.

[edit on 4/29/2008 by Choronzon]

Originally posted by Choronzon
MKULTRA has nothing to do with freemasonry as the topic of the discussion denotes.

Also, the creation of "alters", as the OP put it, is generally regarded by psychologists and psychiatrists as fictional.