Legal questions follow polygamist raid

reply to post by sizzle

deseretnews.com...

I have watching the story as it unfolds. The propaganda showing the smiling little kids at a play ground. CPS knows it is being watched but they still can't do right by all those kids. It only makes me shutter to think of what they would do if they were not being watched but they arrogant that they do care because they think their will be no consequences.

Here is the one about the dehydrated kids.

www.sltrib.com...

I know several people who have done evil things with no consequences. The have hurt people beyond repair. Now days those miscreants only experience happiness with the aid of their antidepressants. That is what awaits many of the rats who are hurting the children in the guise of helping the children.

reply to post by eradown


I have that thread open now, that I told you I was working on. The one about the hidden meanings behind our laws.
Go here
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Why the children were removed from these mothers is that the mothers themselves have been taught since they were young to do whatever the men say. If the men are good and the religion true this could be a good lifestyle. It’s a sad fact pedophiles would find such an arrangement attractive. We all know very well pedophiles seek out those vulnerable it’s what they do and are successfully finding their way to children often via the mothers. I was sexually abused as a child my mother was the real problem. She was physically abusive and refused to protect me from others even after I finally told her at 10. I blame my mother equally with my abusers.

These are adults who have chosen this alternate life style they have chosen to live outside mainstream America. Unfortunately their society without checks & balances can be open to corruption and abuse. This group must deal with the scrutiny. Surely in light of Warren Jeffs it should be of no surprise to these people when law enforcement comes knocking. They should be the first to denounce Jeffs practices and understand public concern. If they have not broken any laws they have nothing to fear.

Someone mentioned the Amish www.legalaffairs.org... please take the time to deny ignorance and read through this article. This case involved an Amish girl whose abuse began in her fathers lap and went on to include her older brothers & cousins raping her over a period of years. Imo the mother in this case was equally abusive towards her daughter by condoning this behavior. Just google Amish, rape and incest see what comes up. Pedophiles come from all races, religions, and income brackets, further might I suggest either knowingly or unknowingly there are enablers from within the group or family who allow access to their children.

Society can’t comprehend that often mothers are very aware of what is going on and for whatever reason don't care as long as they benefit in some way. To ensure ones preferred lifestyle is the reason many selfish mothers look the other way. If the mother is incapable of protecting her children and considered part of the problem then I say yes the children must be removed. Don't think the boys are necessarily safe either, because of my mother’s lack of caring and supervision my brother was also sexually abused. Children of either sex are not safe if the men in control of their lives are pedophiles. Imo any grown man who would consider having sex with a child under 16 has real issues. While it is true we should not so blindly follow or trust our government due to hidden agendas the same can be said about these women. Sorry but yes unfortunately often the mother’s lifestyle is a factor in sexual abuse cases. Further might I ask why aren’t all the fathers of these children coming forward demanding DNA testing to prove there is no abuse or incest to expedite the return of their children?

While many of you can only see the right to religious expression, I see only that children must be allowed their right of freedom from sexual abuse. I am sorry if it infringes on religion when there is an investigation into suspected sexual abuse. I’m sorry sexual abuse occurs at all but that doesn’t change the facts. Yes it is frightening for a child to be removed from the only home they have known even if it is an abusive one. It is definitely a no-win situation for the children either way. Law enforcement must take all precautions sexual abuse of children is very real, very destructive and finds it way into every aspect of life. Law enforcement often looks to family members first the numbers back it up. I say if these people’s beliefs go against the laws set down by the state under whose jurisdiction they reside they must be held accountable regardless of religion. If they feel exempt from our laws they should move to someplace like Guyana.

1 in 4 girls is sexually abused by the age of 18. So chances are there is a woman in your life, co-worker, spouse, friend or acquaintance that has been affected by sexual abuse. Face it it’s in our homes. Law enforcement is very aware of this fact, too aware, don’t you see what they are up against we hire them to take care of societies sewage but when all the facts start getting too close to home and religion for the average American people start getting nervous. Then I ask how do we fight this? It is in fact a slippery slope how does law enforcement combat the majority of sexual abuse that is occurring in the home without taking witch-hunt type action? Are they maybe trying to use this sect as an example? What is being done by the state is all law enforcement has to protect children. I must admit it’s a sorry state of affairs but we have no one to blame but ourselves if we were so concerned for the care and welfare of children we would demand our system work better. Do you know a better way? Then lets implement your plan.

reply to post by Morningglory


I dont think none of who questions this questions that there could be wrong doing or pedophilia...or concern is the way it was handled by law enforcement arrest first and investigate later and then the media just dogs these people before they get their trial....this is what bothers me and others...

reply to post by Morningglory


CPS also abuses children difference is they will get away with it. To date the cult has not killed a single child in 2004 187 children died in Texas foster care. CPS needs to remove the poke in its eye before it takes the speck out of the eyes of others. If the men sre rapists then why aren't they the ones in state custody ? You should be more concerned about the children being abused in state custody than whether non abusive mothers are brain washing them. Those of you who are worried that this FDLS religion has its followers on the wrong path should consider becoming missionaries . That is certainly more humane than rounding up the children of members of churches you do not like.

reply to post by eradown
I do not care one way or another what goes on between consenting adults. I do not have a problem with polygamist unions as long as those unions are between adults. For me this is an issue concerning the safety of children. Again I emphasize if the system is not working it is due to apathy on the part of all, could it possibly be the vast numbers CPS has to deal with. Why are those numbers so great is it a conspiracy to remove children from good homes?

There are real problems with CPS. To say we should be more worried about children being abused by CPS than in the home is ludicrous abuses anywhere are equally horrible and unacceptable. What is your solution leave children in abusive homes and do away with CPS altogether? Maybe more people like you should be the change for CPS and become foster parents.

The fact that this sect was not responsible for the deaths of any children is not a good enough reason to ignore the allegations & suspicions of sexual abuse.

The men are not in state custody, imo, because of DNA testing who’s the mothers/fathers of whom, dates of pregnancies, interviews must be done it's a real mess. We'll just have to wait for results. Warren Jeffs sits in jail these people are not above the law. It's not a matter of rounding up the children of members of churches I do not like for the fun of it. How do you know for certain these mothers are in fact non abusive? Because of the way they look or live? Tell me how do abusive mothers look?

reply to post by Morningglory


I knew a social worker who told me of people who were pedofiles trying to volunteer to work at group homes in Texas. Keeping perverts away from a group home requires a thick skin. They don't just leave when they are told their attention is unwanted ; they try to have the social worker who stood up to them fired. If the social worker who told this to me had not been from a well connected family the pervert would have gotten his wish. Since Bush was governor wards of the state have been drugged. After a data base was set up recording which Doctors were prescribing psychotic drugs to foster children there was a down turn in the number of Doctors who prescribe psychotic drugs to foster children.None the less the problem of foster children being used as lab rats by doctors and pharmaceutical companies continues in Texas. I know people who are perfect in every way who would'nt dream of becoming foster parents because of the absolute hypocrisy of social workers. They have taken children from families that have laundry in the laundry room and dirty dishes in their sink. In order to become a foster parent you must allow that sort of person into your house on a regular basis. People with children can not risk such inspections. So how do monsters who rape and abuse the state's foster care children become foster parents ?It is because of cronyism. I don't know what you think you haved saved those children from. You are'nt rescuing the teenage girls from rape. Teenage girls are raped all the time in foster care. I guess you wanted to insure all the children had an equal chance of being raped. Even though there is an ocean of evidence that the state can not be trusted with the well being of children you still want the burden of evidence to be placed on the parents to prove that they are non abusers. You will not feel the same way when the state comes after you.

reply to post by eradown
I do not know what is going on in Texas but here in my small town in Colorado CPS prefers to keep children out of foster care, money is tight state funding has been severely cut, children are usually placed with family members who in turn neglect, abuse and kill them. A generation of throwaway kids, everyone make lots of money these kids will go on to fulfill the wildest dreams of pedophiles-run-amuck, victimize society and fill our prisons. Some future.

I do not disagree with you eradown I know too well how corrupt the system is, throwing money at a problem only opens the door for corruption. Fixing this country is going to take focus and caring and unfortunately that does not make money for TPTB and is not in their agenda.

I fully agree with your take on state competency but that in no way excuses this group from the same procedures and processes we would all be subjected to.

You know what big bother is watching, especially if you have young children teachers are watching, neighbors are watching, doctors are watching sad but true and we can thank all the abusers and pervs for that. It is yet another challenge we take on as parents in today’s society. Just know if you lead a questionable alternate life style and young children are involved you could be setting yourself up for scrutiny. When the kids are grown join a cult and worship a fire hydrant.

I have not heard if this is a factor in this case but in the past I have heard of a polygamist sect receiving welfare benefits for 6 wives and several children. If welfare funds are received the trade off is the state is going to be in your business all the time. So maybe if you don’t want the state looking too closely at your life style maybe you should not take their money. Sorry in this world you do not get something for nothing you want state money you get the state regulating and sticking their nose in your life.

I do not worry about the state coming to get me. My kids are grown; I’m a nobody, I ask for nothing, I’m living in the middle of nowhere, in the poorest and least populated county in the state.

kids taken from New Mexico cult...

they did it again..

www.cbsnews.com...

reply to post by Morningglory


I live in Texas so I have a difficult sympathizing with Texas CPS. Texas CPS is not required to meet a high threshhold of evidence before they take kids away from families. Texas Cps seems to have unlimited funds when it comes to attacking famlies but anyone who has ever seen our foster children knows that the state is not spending money lavishly on the upkeep of our orphans and our abused children. Texas parents should bolt ,barricade ,and bar their doors. They should have good lawyers on tap and join parent rights organizations in case some brain washed sociology major taps at their door. Those from affluent families have less to worry about than our poor people when it comes to CPS.

If the state really believed the men were dangerous rapists ,why are the men still on the compound and the women are being forced to move all over the state? Someone wants everyone off the ranch. So removing the women was necessary so the women could not maintain ownership of the ranch. Now that the state has the children 24 hours a day is the state allowing the state psychologists to brain wash the children into believing they have been abused? The state has tainted its own case. If they keep the children many will be watching to see if ten years down the line the children come forward with tales of abuse suffered at the hands of the state. People will also be watching to see if any of the children end up dead or missing in the care of the state.

This is so sad for all involved. A few families here have moved to Texas so far I have only heard good things from them concerning their move. In fact some relocated because of their children. Our town has such limited resources and we are so far removed from civilization, people if given the opportunity are moving away. A good majority it seems does find their way back.

It's ironic as my husband and I moved 1000 miles away from Chicago to nest here. Due to my past I felt a real need to get away from mainstream society. Yet the locals talk this place down and always think the grass is greener somewhere else.

This does cause me concern what you are saying about Texas. We are close neighbors and our community does in fact have a Texas connection. Seeing how I am located so far south in Colorado many of our residents are from Texas. I will be sure to give anyone I know considering a move to Texas a heads up and I will follow closely what plays out in your state.

Didn't mean any harm with my comments. I just get rather outraged when kids are involved. I mean we did a considerable amount of sacrificing and re-adjusting of our lives to find our little piece of heaven to raise our kids the way we wanted. We had to do that within the guidelines of the state. We had no choice but to work to some extent within the system. It did take more effort and more watch dogging on our part to hold to the standard we wanted for our children yet satisfy state requirements.

Maybe Texas is involved in a land grab but imo these people by their close association with the likes of Warren Jeffs raises red flags for me. Sadly as our society becomes overwhelmed by deadbeat dads, ignorance and abuse we will see many more cults come into being. People are looking for a savior.

There were reasons that laws were written to protect teenage girls from marrying to young and having babies. Their bodies are not ready for it yet. Females develop and grow until they are about 21. A 12-13 year old is still a child. Just because she starts her period, doesn't mean she's ready to mount and impregnate. Her liver, kindeys, and heart are not ready to take on supporting a growing fetus in her womb. Their vaginas aren't fully developed enough, to dialate and facilitate properly delivering of a child successfully. The pelvic bone surrounding the canal is still too small, and this is why, many young women died in child birth in Medieval times, and it was finally outlawed. For all you hot to trot young studs out there, remember this when you try to screw your underage girlfriends. You could be setting her up for many problems for years to come, even for life. Even many women who are of legal age have problems delivering.

This is also why, girls and boys were kept apart long ago, and supervised when together. The old ways weren't so stupid after all.

Enter the perverted pedophiles hiding behind a perversion of religion, to justify raping and impregnating children.
NO religion should be exempt from current laws that safe guard under-aged females. Or even males.
Polygamy should be banned outright,everywhere, and the issuing of young girls for rape and impreganation has to be punishable by law. No exceptions.
No religion should be used to keep girls ignorant and afraid, and subservient to men and their insatiable erections. The worst catastrophe to befall females are the E.D. drugs. There are reasons why things shut down with age. Men worshipping their penises, or suffering penis envy, are the dumbest animals on the planet. What a Bunch of Morons.
As far as the polygamist group is concerned, HANG everyone of the culprits. Do not give the children back. Give them a proper education, and set them free. Burn the Polygamist compound to the ground.
Warren Jeffs should be castrated, change his name to Wendy, given female hormones continuously, and then turned over to the prison population so that he can be raped over and over again. Lets see how he likes it?

Any lawyer who fights for these idiots to continue the raping of girls should be run out of town after they are disbarred.


[edit on 3-5-2008 by UFOBountyHunter]

[edit on 3-5-2008 by UFOBountyHunter]

reply to post by UFOBountyHunter


I do not agree with polygamy or underage sex of any kind.It happens more than it should in our society. Lecherous guardians who knock up their wards multible times and force them to have many abortions are not reported to authorites.That is wrong. When a young girl is taken to a gynecologist for birthcontrol pills I think CPS should be required to make sure nothing illegal is taking place.

I doubt Foster care will educate those kids. Most foster kids end up homeless adults that is how well foster care kids are educated.

Throwing out due process ,the right to representation and a fair trial just so we can punish people we do not like will backfire.

reply to post by UFOBountyHunter


Perhaps you failed to read through the rest or the thread before going off on your tangent, but the topic here is not child-molesters or polygamy.

The subject here is the fact that there was no proof of any criminal activity, much less any indictments by a grand jury.

So you can spout your opinions until you are blue in the face, but the fact of the matter remains that the police stormed into private property and kidnapped hundreds of people without any legal authority to do so. By this precedent, there is nothing stopping them from doing this to you and your family should they get the inkling to so so. They do what they want, the law be damned. So if you are going to support anarchy, then just be out with it.

EDIT to add:

And no, I am not being empathetic toward people who abuse children. In my opinion they should be castrated, plain and simple. But there is no proof that this is what was happeing here.

As far as polygamy goes, I reserve judgement. It is not my place to tell other adults how they should be carrying out their lives so long as it does not hurt anyone else.

Lastly, if you are so concerned about young girls getting pregnant, I suggest you start talking in high schools. There are far more teenage pregnancies there than in any church. Furthermore, I suggest that you lobby the government to raise the legal age to marry to 21.

[edit on 5/3/0808 by jackinthebox]