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Legal questions follow polygamist raid

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posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by sizzle
I do not see any happy endings here, no matter what happens.

But neither do I agree with the way Texas is handling this situation.


An ending is an ending, if you don't see how to finish things in a way that people will benefit from it, then you're hesitating.

You don't have to agree with the way they're handling it, but i for one am glad that someone has taken a hand in it.

It'll bring finality to those who need it.

edit; i truly believe that the imperitive for dealing with this matter is to do it efficiently, and as quickly as possible.

Maybe the best thing that can be done for the 'victims' is to let them have time to come to terms with their experiences.

[edit on 26-4-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]




posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 02:00 PM
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reply to post by proteus33
 


I have no doubts that there has been some of this going on, and it is an outrage when anyone hides behind religion for ulterior motives.
My concern is: Are these children really going to be better off? Will they truly benefit from the removal?
In ordinary cases of domestic issues, the perpetrator is removed and the victims are allowed to stay in their homes. Why can't Texas work on an angle such as this? That's why I think that Texas has a motive.



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 02:13 PM
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reply to post by sizzle
 


There is no excuse for what is happening.One of the women who has lost her child was an unattached divorced mother. They separated people who were in traditional nuclear families from their wives and their children. They even separated toddlers from their mothers. All this even though only two teenage girls have been found who might have been abused by older men. All this because of a hoax perpetrated by some zombie living in Colorado Springs , Colorado.If we have become a country that will punish people for what they might do, then watch out! It will not be long before those of us who are watching this spectacle in quite amusement will be busting rocks in a chain gang.



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by sizzle

In ordinary cases of domestic issues, the perpetrator is removed and the victims are allowed to stay in their homes. Why can't Texas work on an angle such as this? That's why I think that Texas has a motive.


In case you hadn't noticed, this isn't exactly an ordinary domestic issue - these people have been victimised, and the locals know who the victims are.

Perhaps the authorities are also worried that when the kids grow up they may harbour some ill-feeling towards their captors, and perhaps attempt to revisit some of the violations that were exacted upon them unto the antagonists.

Anyway, your point is valid, but i'll ask you a question;

Would you really want to spend the rest of your days in a social environment where you are known as a victim?

[edit on 26-4-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 02:25 PM
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Reflection time:
Authorities have been aware since day 1, of this group and their lifestyle. They saw no reason to take legal action against them.

Then, out-of-the-blue, they get a call from an anonymous caller that is supposedly a 16-year old girl who has been forced into marriage to a 50 year old man, and she is being raped and beaten by him. (anyone smell a rat, yet)?

Authorities siege the area, in military-like force, complete with a tank (for God's-sake)!

They never find the imaginary girl who made the call. (still don't smell a rat)?

They find no weapons except hunting rifles, but the place is labeled a COMPOUND.

Then the children are removed and placed in crowded, unsanitary conditions, where upon some of them became ill.

Then there is a report of a 33-year old woman in Colorado Springs, Co, who has been arrested for making hoax call in the past, of like issues.
Smell a rat yet?
Do the authorities see the nature of the hoax and give the kids back to their parents or work things out with them?



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by sizzle

Smell a rat yet?



I smell more than one.


apc

posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 03:05 PM
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Marg, you don't like their lifestyle and neither do I. But they weren't harming anyone and there was no force involved. People who have left the "compound" have stated they were free to leave whenever they chose, and they eventually made that choice. Look at all the people now... the women returned of their own free will and the children want to go home.

This was a mass kidnapping by the State based on false allegations against a traditional culture that kept to themselves and didn't cause problems for anyone else. Now that they have found no evidence of rape they are seeking DNA from all the adults for what they claim is just to verify paternity. In actuality they wish to do the math and charge some of the fathers with statutory rape. They can't get them on anything else because it was all bogus to begin with so they're going after a line some bureaucrat drew. The age of consent in Spain is 13. Should we invade Spain and steal all their kids too?

I'm less sympathetic since it has come out that the women in this community would collect welfare, but the theft of their children is still not justified.

[edit on 26-4-2008 by apc]



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 03:27 PM
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reply to post by apc
 


If you think is nothing wrong with having young girls forced into marriage and living in harems, is ok because is not doing any harm to any of us outside their littler sickening world then I have nothing else to contribute to this thread that is looking for apologies for this corrupted and sickening behavior against children and women.

The men and women should all be charge and serve jail time.

To me this borders on prostitution, forced into girls and by consent of the adult women.

And I am glad the government broke their littler communal sick ring.

In America people like to condemn when another nation have this type of living arrangements

But when it happens in America I see that for many is OK.

Interesting.



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by marg6043
 

Even the innocent men and women who never took part in illegal activities should go to jail? You do relize that the probability of all the children particularly the little toddlers being abused in foster care is great. I am not kidding. Toddlers who have been placed in Texas foster care have been beaten to death. I do not think you would aproove of some of the religious nuts who have become foster care parents in Texas. In truth they would be better of with their FDLS mothers who do not have a history of killing toddlers. CPS is not better and may in fact be worse than the the parents in the case of the boys and the girls beneath age fourteen. Foster care girls have a nasty tendency to become pregnant in their teens ,and who knows how many more of them are being exploited sexually.



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 04:10 PM
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reply to post by eradown
 


So is OK for the "teen girls" to become "pregnant" by the "harem ruler".

Because at least they are in a safe environment.

Sorry but they broke the law and that is how they will prosecuted.

Again apologizing for the behavior of these "adults" doesn't make it any better or easier, they all were living together and they all know what it was going on.

An Adult that willingly give away their under age child to marriage into a "harem" is guilty of charge.

I am done here is nothing else to add.


apc

posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 04:16 PM
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reply to post by marg6043
 

I don't think there's anything wrong with prostitution either.


There are no forced marriages. There are arranged marriages. Should the government invade hasidic jews for having them also? People living in these lifestyles have every right to say no. They may face undesirable social pressures, but that is not a crime.

I don't condemn these actions in other nations which is why I don't condemn them here. Just because bigotry has manifested in law does not mean the law is right or just. Whether or not it's "sick" means nothing. I think anal sex is sick, so you know what I do? I don't have it. But there's nothing wrong if someone else does. Texas law has a history of disagreeing with that specific comment, so it's no surprise this tragedy took place there.

These children have been raised to believe the outside world is evil and all the State of Texas has done is support that belief.



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 04:18 PM
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I believe there are enough former members of this group - - who DO KNOW what goes on inside.

Their testimonies are enough for me to warrant taking legal action - - in removing children - especially young girls from this secretive environment.

All I have to do is think of some young boys who were molested by priests - - who's parents did not believe them - because a "man of God" would never do that.

Too often a Blind Eye has turned away with the claim "it is none of my business" or "its God's will" - etc.

I personally have nothing against Polygamy - - but we must focus on the real crime here which is Force and Pedophilia - - of women and minors.

There is also the problem of kicking young men out of the group.



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by eradown
reply to post by marg6043
 

Even the innocent men and women who never took part in illegal activities should go to jail? You do realize that the probability of all the children particularly the little toddlers being abused in foster care is great. I am not kidding. Toddlers who have been placed in Texas foster care have been beaten to death. I do not think you would aprove of some of the religious nuts who have become foster care parents in Texas. In truth they would be better of with their FDLS mothers who do not have a history of killing toddlers.


I agree. I would prefer the law placed them back with their mothers - - monitor the situation from inside - - do not allow the men back into the compound.

However - I support action had to be taken.



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 04:32 PM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


Marge it is not proven that all of those parents have given young girls to old men. The law must separate the innocent from the guilty. The five hundred ton elephant in this mess is that CPS Texas can not be held accountable for the abuse that foster care children suffer so you should be very scared for those kids. No one has ever been held accountable for placing foster care children with animals ,because of this, I almost never support CPS except in the most dangerous situations. I think your passion is mispent placing innocent people (even if they did make the mistake of being born into a cult or joining a cult) in prison and endangering children in foster care . You would be better off introducing the innocent people to a more sensible cult or religion.



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 05:09 PM
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reply to post by eradown
 


That's exactly what I have been saying.
They have arrested a whole group on suspicion.
Nothing has been proven. Again; charge the guilty; arrest them; free the innocent.



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 05:12 PM
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If CPS believes that crimes have been committed, why have only two arrests been made? Why are the mothers and children the ones being made to suffer. Yes, I smell more than one rat also.



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 05:38 PM
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I sure hope that it is not any of our kids next that we are discussing here, and the discussion evolves into:
You shouldn't have attended that meeting.
You shouldn't have smoked that cigarette.
You shouldn't have lost your job.
You shouldn't have attended that Church.
You shouldn't have married that person.
You shouldn't have lost your utilities.
You shouldn't have disciplined your child.
etc.
etc.
etc.
In other words, if CPS wants to, they can take your child for any trumped up reason that they want to. And there will not be a public outcry to stop them.



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 05:48 PM
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You folks might want to read this entire information on the marriage license and what it really means and how it pertains to you and your children:

He also said that it is very important to understand that children born to the marriage are considered by law as "the contract bearing fruit" - meaning the children primarily belong to the State, even though the law never comes out and says so in so many words.

In this regard, children born to the contract regarded as "the contract bearing fruit," he said it is vitally important for parents to understand two doctrines that became established in the United States during the 1930s. The first is the Doctrine of Parens Patriae. The second is the Doctrine of In Loco Parentis.

Parens Patriae means literally "the parent of the country" or to state it more bluntly - the State is the undisclosed true parent. Along this line, a 1930s Arizona Supreme Court case states that parents have no property right in their children, and have custody of their children during good behavior at the sufferance of the State. This means that parents may raise their children and maintain custody of their children as long as they don't offend the State, but if they in some manner displease the State, the State can step in at any time and exercise its superior status and take custody and control of its children - the parents are only conditional caretakers. [Thus the Doctrine of In Loco Parentis.]

www.usavsus.info...



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 06:03 PM
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Were you aware of this information?


Take a look at the so-called "Birth Certificate" CERTIFICATE OF LIVE BIRTH where the mother signs and you will see the title of the box stating in small print:
"MOTHER OR OTHER INFORMANT".

The word "OTHER" makes the mother "an informant." By signing the "Birth Certificate" as an informer, she contracts with the government putting her child and her child's future labor as collateral for the national debt (servitude--slavery). The father or mother can rescind the contract within three business days (Truth-in-Lending).

Since the Birth Certificate neither lists the father as the husband nor lists the wife's acceptance of the father's surname as her own but has the mothers maiden name instead, the baby is considered a BASTARD. Bastards are therefore under the care and control of the Priest Rule (democracy) and can be taken from the mother at any time.The hospitals receive a fairly large monetary benefit ($3,000, more or less, per child) from the corporate government for having Birth Certificates filled out and signed.

www.usavsus.info...

Edit:
If you wonder how you might can get around this, you can always record marriages and births in a family bible. They are recognized in every state in the U.S.

[edit on 26-4-2008 by sizzle]



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 06:51 PM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


Absolutely correct. One man one wife or one wife and one man however you want to look at it. Its against the law in the U.S. no matter what any religion says.



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