Smiley's would tell me that this may have all originated on the internet. Furthermore, if this is a large group then they would most likely stay in touch via the internet. IMO, I just can't see it as classic serial killing with a large
group. However, I definitely think they would talk via e-mail, chat rooms and forums. If there are enough people involved to carry these killings out over many states then it's likely that one or more of them don't have the capacity to cover their tracks and it's likely clues could most definitely exist right here on the WWW.

What if we did random searches with keywords such as: "killing club" or "smiley death", etc...? We might just stumble into their chat or forum. Yea, it's a stretch and it's likely that initiating such a search will have authorities at your doorstep but a good idea none the less.

Originally posted by jbondo
.... it's likely clues could most definitely exist right here on the WWW.

What if we did random searches with keywords such as: "killing club" or "smiley death", etc...? We might just stumble into their chat or forum. Yea, it's a stretch and it's likely that initiating such a search will have authorities at your doorstep but a good idea none the less.

I have been doing searches all morning.. I did find some interesting sites and I found out about a fetish thats called "Aquaphillia"


who knows?

I hate to mention a TV show, but the show Dexter where the two serial killers communicate via craigslist is probably similar to how such murderers would talk.


On the show, one says:

"Dear Ken, I'm in pieces. Why the cold shoulder?"

The other killer responds with:

"Barbie, Be patient. One day we'll share a cold one."

Now the pieces is in reference to the puzzle pieces of the Barbie doll that the ice truck killer has left for Dexter. The ice truck killer responds that they will share a cold one, in reference to the ice truck killings.

It is silly, but is a a good example on how such a group could communicate.

I have also searched news archives for other crimes in the area of these murders. There is a ton of arson activity which could be a red flag as well. Pretty interesting stuff.

What really needs to be done is a search of old internet material that any of the victims may have been on (like old discussion forums etc).

We need high school records, any school records to show links between subjects.

I have already found a link between law enforcement relatives and victims, and also a wrestling team connection between atleast two victims. We need more.

We need to research these kids names in news archives for any mention they may have. I do not think these victims were randomly chosen in a bar or party. I think they were researched.

I listened to that C2C program and I can't recall hearing anything about a neo-Nazi connection. But I may have missed it. Still, it doesn't feel right when you look at the victims-- what do you see as a motive?

It seems the victims are "of a type" physically... young, fit, attractive, and social, and the hunting grounds, so to speak, are bars and parties where people, including the victims, are drinking. Possibly the victims are being selected at these locations, according to a preferred type and also because they have made themselves vulnerable by drinking. Either the victims drink too much or their drinks are being drugged. Either way, they become vulnerable and this may be when they are approached by a friendly, helpful person offering to help them get home when the effects of the alcohol and/or drug become apparent.

Don't most serial killers have fairly specific preferences when it comes to type? For example, women with long brown hair, parted in the middle, etc.? And many of them are ritualistic in that they are constantly trying to perfect their fantasy scenario. For example, on the MenUnderWater.com site (that particular fetish was news to me, btw), if you read some of their stories, you quickly get the idea that each one has a fantasy ritual they prefer to act out, one that includes all their particular turn-ons, be it swim fins or being chained down under water, etc. The point being, the ritual is key. I don't think (but I'm not certain) that these men are simply being killed for the sake of killing because of the apparent preference for a certain type of victim. There's a more complex motive at work here, very probably sexual.

It doesn't sound as if they're killed immediately, but taken to a second more private location, and that is generally done when the killer wants time with the victim. I read a mention of "torture", but no specifics. I wish we had more info about that, as it would be very revealing character evidence about the killer.

The victims being disposed of in bodies of water may have nothing to do with the killer's fantasy and only about washing away physical evidence. Or not-- there were quite a few very specific ritual fantasies about men in rivers on the MenUnderWater site, as opposed to others who prefer men in showers, for example. There were also quite a few about revenge rituals and sexual drownings performed on unwilling men. Same point again, rituals are very very personal and specific, so every element of the crime scene, no matter how small, further defines the killer. What may make no sense at all, ie., the smiley faces, makes perfect sense to the killer and his idea of the way he wants his ritual fantasy to play out each time.

I can certainly understand why the MenUnderWater site was of interest. If these killings are done by more than one person, then you have to have people "of a group" with like tastes, so to speak.

All in all, it's quite fascinating. I just wish we had more specific information regarding both the victims' bodies at recovery and the details of the crime scenes.

Originally posted by Dulcimer

What really needs to be done is a search of old internet material that any of the victims may have been on (like old discussion forums etc).

We need high school records, any school records to show links between subjects.

We need to research these kids names in news archives for any mention they may have. I do not think these victims were randomly chosen in a bar or party. I think they were researched.

Maybe we could each choose a name from a list of victims and individually research our particular name, then post our findings here and see what we come up with?

Research anything that you like. All findings are great, even if we find them 10 times each.

I was searching through old Google Groups data. (this is a great way to view old articles for free as you can specify the exact time frame to search)

I found this disturbing post.

rec.sport.pro-wrestling
The UA will drown in the TWO river.

Smiley796
Cause Smiley said so.
The Enforcer of the TWO

Considering some of the victims were wrestling teammates. It could be nothing, but it sounds so strange. It was posted in 1998.

I know this is reaching a bit, but do you think Walmart employees have anything to do with this?

Originally posted by Frankenchrist
I know this is reaching a bit, but do you think Walmart employees have anything to do with this?

AS long as we are speculating.....anti-Walmart groups or individuals could be looked at.
Unions or union members??

Originally posted by Frankenchrist
I dont think its a "gang" or "cult". I think its a "club".


I think they compare kills and compete with eachother. This is a sport to them. I dont see anything (so far) that is ritualistic.

the news clippings are the trophy.

but thats just my opinion.

Now that is an interesting point of view - hadn't thought of it like that - somehow seems even more sinister because the purpose has no larger meaning than self gratification - YUK!!....and somehow more likely than my original cult idea....yikes what a world!!!

Exactly, I think with my "club" theory. the whole internet comes into play like other people here have speculated.

easy comunication, instant gratification(news wires). instant point tallys.

the killings started in 97,thats when the internet was in the middle of its boom. it was still kinda new and exciting........and these cats just took it to another level.

OK OK, so what if this group of people are homosexuals, and they seek out straight men.....would this be considered a hate crime?

Good work kattraxx, I had not read that before.


I am still waiting for more evidence to be released by the detectives. If anyone runs across anything, post it here or link to it. Thanks.

I'm new, I hope me joining in here is okay, this quote was from a few pages back:

Originally posted by Spoontoad
As for the Jenkins case, I believe his ex-girlfriend knows more than what she is saying, partly based upon the police file I've read, and partly because of a recent interview in where Jenkins father made a comment, and while he didnt say it out-right, was pointing a finger at the ex & some of her friends. This was on the KSTP web site, but I'l have to find the exact link.

I read the police report (that can't be complete can it?) anyways...I am kind of with Spoontoad on this one. It really bothers me that he was kicked out of the Lone Tree wearing a flimsy Halloween costume and they wouldn't let him get his coat, wallet, cell phone or keys from his girlfriend who worked there! I know those places are crowded on Halloween but I've been to the Lone Tree....it's two levels but it's not a huge place...I've never had a problem finding someone I know there...I'd imagine that the guys at the door would probably know her since they worked together. I know it's not the same everywhere but in my experience with places like that your coworkers would at least find you and say something like "your boyfriend is getting out of hand you need to get him out of here" I don't know...