Don't waste your time on those that haven't a clue

I would like to take a moment and write or type about something that has

been on my mind lately. Its about trying to wake up those around me about

the fact that they are being sprayed with chemtrails on a daily basis. I have

been aware of chemtrails for quite a while now and I thought that by this point

more people would be aware of the spraying going on right over their heads.

In the past seven years I have spoken with maybe sixty people about

chemtrails on a face to face basis. Of all these people only one other person

was even aware of chemtrails. And of all the people I have spoken to about

chemtrails only four or five of them were interested in what I had to say.


You start to burn out after a while trying to explain the nature of chemtrails.

So now I'm at a point where I don't bother delving into chemtrails and

explaining their effects and so on unless the other person is genuinely

interested in the subject. Because if the other person hasn't already started

to notice the chemtrail spraying they most likely never will. I refuse to argue

as to the existence of chemtrails with anyone from here on out. I figure

what's the point why not save my energy.


And now this frame of mind doesn't just refer to chemtrails but to a whole

plethora of other subjects including the dangers of vaccines, GM food, psych-

tronic mind control, brainwashing through public education, fluoridation and

the destruction of higher critical thinling skills. etc, etc. I have in the past

spoken with family and friends about the afore-mentioned subjects and I am

usually told that it is not true or sometimes they tell me it is too depressing

and I should stop talking about it. Anybody else have these same types

of experiences when discussing subjects that are considered unusual or

unheard of to most other people?

I know what you mean, I stopped trying to explain to my wife my back aches. She is utterly clueless sometimes. I don't think she has any interest in it. I think I will take your lead and stop trying to convince her.
Vance

I have in the past spoken with family and friends about the afore-mentioned subjects and I am usually told that it is not true or sometimes they tell me it is too depressing and I should stop talking about it.

Anybody else have these same types of experiences when discussing subjects that are considered unusual or unheard of to most other people?

I don't think there is a single user on ATS who does not have experiences of people who "Don't want to hear it".

You really want to know how people get by without trying to force information down people's throats?

It's called letting them think for themselves.

p.s; people often make the assumption that if they say "It's not true" or that "It's depressing" they are disagreeing with you - this could not be further from the truth.

[edit on 26-4-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]

I have come to believe that if a person feels a need to tell and convince, he/she should but, as the saying goes "You can lead a Jackass to water but you can't make him drink". More than anything, I waste my time on this forum because it helps me forunlate what I think and believe. It is important to also remember that not all members are grown or ready to deal with the truth. For one thing, the truth threatens the world of many people. For example, the existence of ETs is a threat to all religions, governments and those some want to believe is what is running this world...it's a real threat to the control freaks.

What you are essentially implying in this thread is that 'those who don't have a clue' are either intellectually or emotionally inferior.

People do pick up on this, btw.

It might be unintended, but people are not as ignorant as you think, and ignoring that fact is ignorance in itself.



[edit on 26-4-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]

Anti-Tyrant you have misunderstood what I mean with the title of my post.

I should have explained myself a bit more. What I mean to say is don't waste

your time explaining things like the shadow government, chemtrails, etc. to

people that don't have any idea that there is something really wrong with

society already. And by the way whether someone is aware of something

like chemtrails or not, it us not a matter of intelligence but a matter of their

level of indoctrination.

Anti-Tyrant I have come to the conclusion that people need to think for

themselves as you have mentioned. The process of waking up to this night

mare is one that will happen on an individual basis. It will be a slow process

and the majority of the population will sleep right through the whole thing. The

greatest truths are realized on an individual basis. I still believe there is a

decent chance the public can put a stop to the chemtrail spraying, it will be a

while though

reply to post by greydawn


Why should anyone follow your suggestion here? It may seem to some reading your opinions here that you are tired or frustrated in regards to 'explaining things like the shadow government, chemtrails, etc.'


Who are 'those that haven't a clue'? Those who hold a different opinion to yours? Who haven't heard your argument, who even after hearing, still refute it?


What makes such conversations 'waste your time'? Might this be due to a perceived lack of success on your part? If so, what leads you to interpret your efforts so, what would equal success? That others agree with you? I'm sure you would rather someone who disagrees with you show you (if such were indeed the case) the fallacies in your own argument than blindly lend support to your point of view. Would a debate where to people are happy argue their points exhaustively yet which resulted in neither altering the viewpoint of the other be a 'waste of time' or just a waste of time for you? How does one measure the success of a discussion? From how strong our arguments are regarding others we can or cannot 'convert'? Does one have to 'win'?

For those with a genuine interest in such alternative matters might not the merest raising such controversial topics for discussion and through this the possible stimulation a critical thought process in another be deemed achievement enough? (If indeed one even needed a reason.)

I can understand that sometimes one may become jaded but might that not be through personal opinion based on interpretation of the individually held desired aims (and perhaps then the 'justification' one might use to enter into debate) and 'results' of debate? Such would be a participants prerogative of course, but how can one legitimately transfer such a personal perspective onto others? To be granted the indulgence of reviewing ideas and opinions and probe for weaknesses in our arguments thanks to insight from new eyes could surely be viewed as reward for anyone broaching such points.

It must be asked on a conspiracy board too if it would not be impossible for those so inclined to interpret your words as a transparent attempt to stifle the discussion of such matters and that your apparent disillusionment and frustrations are but a mere rouse played by one with a vested interest in detracting from any potential constructive discussion?

That people 'need to think for themselves' is a valid point, but I am not of the opinion that the sole purpose and single justification of debate is for one to educate another anyway. But, in class one remember and parrot or one can learn. In the event (however unlikely ) that someone agreed with anything I might say I would imagine, if not hope, they would be taking from my words an idea, a seed which would then grow and blossom with their own understandings rather than parroting any ineloquence of mine. So I don't see the bringing the the attention of another a concept such as those mentioned as in opposition to the idea that people 'need to think for themselves'.

It would seem to me that while the results are for the participants to interpret there is reason enough for anyone to engage in any debate the so wish. 'Don't waste your time' sounds more like the words of the tired rather than well meaning advice.

Jak

I am neither tired or frustrated in explaining my opinions. It has been my

experience though that if I wish to speak of something such as chemtrails

I am now very careful about who I speak with. If you read my other threads

and pics I have put up it is obvious I am not trying to stifle such things as

chemtrails, shadow government, etc. , so that speaks for itself. As far as my

stifling discussion, well I think that's the job of ATS, as several of my threads

have disappeared. Promoting certain agendas, well that is the job of ATS, for

example the existence of UFO's. Even the word conspiracy itself was coined

by the elite to discredit such ideas as world government. But there you go

parroting it and not even realizing it. The way it is though ATS is the best

place for discussions of this nature, so I will continue to stay.

[edit on 26-4-2008 by greydawn]

[edit on 26-4-2008 by greydawn]

Originally posted by greydawn
I am neither tired or frustrated in explaining my opinions.

Perhaps you are not, your contributions here might seem to suggest otherwise though:

Originally posted by greydawn

You start to burn out after a while ... So now I'm at a point where I don't bother delving into chemtrails and explaining their effects and so on unless the other person is genuinely interested in the subject. ... I refuse to argue
as to the existence of chemtrails with anyone from here on out. I figure what's the point why not save my energy.

And now this frame of mind doesn't just refer to chemtrails but to a whole plethora of other subjects

Burn out, I don't bother, what's the point? Perhaps I may be taking these comments out of context but I believe they could all easily be seen as exemplary of one harbouring feelings of frustration or tiredness, particularly frustration when offered under the title 'Don't waste your time on those that haven't a clue'.

Pointing out that my words were in reference to you sounding tired and frustrated with discussion, not the mere explanation of opinion (something which requires no external input) if, as it appears to be, this frustration is born through a perceived lack of success, the failure to achieve of certain desired results and hence the feeling of time wasted, then to understand that frustration shouldn't we look at the perception of success used here? How or why do such arguments come to be classified as a waste of time? As mentioned before it appears to come down to 'How does one measure the success of a discussion?'.

For me debate should be stimulating, discussion a joy - they can be reward in themselves and I believe that is why many come here. Success does not merely have to equate to 'victory' as in winning someone over to a particular personal belief.

I do think this a personal interpretation though and as such I cannot and will not suggest that you should necessarily regard anything I have said as any definitive argument for the justification of debate/discussion which is appropriate for you, for perhaps you do enter into debate with the singular desire for a specific outcome. But in accordance with the possibility of my interpretation not being suitable for you, I cannot see how someone could offer the argument you do here, advocating others not to enter into discussion and justifying it in the way you have done, for while I am quite willing to accept you may view any other outcome as a waste of time, it would seem to me that this is due to opinion, your personal interpretation. That being so how can it reasonably be offered as a course of action which all should follow?

In regards to the interpretation mentioned above, the comment that you 'refuse to argue as to the existence of chemtrails with anyone from here on out' because, for example 'whether someone is aware of something like chemtrails or not, it us not a matter of intelligence but a matter of their level of indoctrination' and so view such discussion as a waste of time could be understood as part of the problem. Through the refusal to even entertain alternate viewpoints the comment suggests you will not, or perhaps even by such immediate dismissal believe you cannot, learn anything worthwhile from discussion with anyone who does not already agree with you and further to this the only desirable outcome (and so requirement for any discussion to be valid) is that your beliefs are accepted by another; that they ultimately submit to your opinion and accept it as correct. This is not a viewpoint I agree with and sounds more like the attitude of preaching rather than that of entertaining and reasoned discussion or constructive argument.

I would wholeheartedly disagree with such an interpretation and still see no justification for the advice offered here

Originally posted by greydawn
What I mean to say is don't waste your time explaining things like the shadow government, chemtrails, etc. to people that don't have any idea that there is something really wrong with society already.

which seems to be that of general refusal to entertain discussion as there is no point unless (taken from the opening post) at least common ground already exists if not preferable pre-existing acceptance and agreement on subject matter.

What harm can a good, objective discussion do either party?

Jak




Edit: These are my opinions, all staff enter debate in such a manner as members and members only. Please address any concerns you may have over ATS censorship via the Complain / Suggestion feature - Jak

[edit on 28/4/08 by JAK]

reply to post by greydawn

I understand where your coming from too I have been telling people for years that stuff like this was going on youd think they would be concernedbut they all seem to have the belief that it wont effect them in thier life time I think is the problem and they think they just wanna look the other way good post

reply to post by JAK
I agree with what your saying and I really try not to push my issues on others its not about winning or they have to believe in what I say its the fact that meny will Lets say say watch a movie and love that movie enough to believe in thier heart some part of it could be true and they believe in the fact that someone could come up with that ideal to right a movie and they will talk forever about it but tell that same person that in real life someones doing it they can't believe that someone could come up with the ideal and actualy do it and when you wakeup and see somehting might just be going on you get emotional and know that the only thing you can do to contribute to helping it not happen is to tell people its unbelivable that people will turn thier heads and instead of looking for themselves at the very least they just laugh it off and I think thats what makes you give up on them I try not to jump to everything told to me but also I look things up just to make sure when most would rather party thier lives away and or play games its sad when people wont at least see for themselves whats going on and just belive in one sorce and think that everyone they dont checkup on has got everything in check ?? sorry for such a long and probly bad gramerd post lol

greydawn, haven't you stopped for a moment and seen it from the other side?

I see the nonsense about 'chemtrails' and cringe....and I feel it is important to dispel the myth best I can, before it gets spread (pun) around more and more.

I shudder when I see nonsense about the Apollo missions....mostly, it seems, by the younger generation, those that weren't yet born when the Space Program was in full flourish.

What is apparent is that, in those two subjects, the ones who continually 'believe' in 'chemtrails' and 'faked' Moon landings just don't have any experience nor knowledge of aviation and aerospace. AND/or they don't understand meteorology sufficiently.

Being ignorant of these sciences and disciplines leads to easy misconceptions, fueled, it seems, by fraudulent 'hucksters' who get off on promoting nonsense and selling to the gullible. It is big business.

There's no direct proof, but it certainly seems highly likely that certain people who post on various Internet sites are actually 'shills' for these crooks, helping to sustain the myths, and hence the profits from books and DVDs, etc.

I don't accuse any particular individuals...and, of course, many 'ture believers' are unwitting patsies in this spread of bad science and illogical reasoning.

WW

reply to post by greydawn


yup same here...i just keep quiet unless someone asks...my wife just rolls here eyes at me if i bring it up...sad really...they all keep saying how depressing it is to talk about...so i just keep mum

reply to post by JAK


jak i agree with you...but for me at 55, my memory is not as good as it was and if a discussion starts i like to some kind of documentation or reference i can show, and i can't walk around with a huge up-to-date reference book. and throwing out web site addresses just makes the eyes of the people i'm talking to glaze over.

I quit trying to convince people for one reason: They don't WANT to know the truth. Like the bible says about the end times, people will gather those around them that tell them what their ears itch to hear. (Though, in fairness, this verse is applying to preachers).

They want to continue in their little fantasy world where everything is going to be ok. I think these people will be some of the most violent and insane after TSHTF.

would kind of depend on circumstances,I am also 55 I've seen things change over the years,including people who after some time have changed their tune,so depending on your age time does change,heck I'm still waiting on the hovercrafts they showed on old Disney shows,so as far as someone not having a clue ,when and how are you basing this statement on,I've seen and heard some things in my lifetime that defy logic,so I learn something new everyday,when that stops they will be tossing dirt over me

so tell me .... why are they spraying us.. ??? and who is involved... the people doing it .. must realize they are spraying there own kids too... there brothers and sisters... moms and dads... what is the motive behind it?????

reply to post by weedwhacker


finally another voice of common sense in here... that was said very elaquently.. (?)... thanks again..

You can only plant seeds. Especially when it comes to blowing someones mind, you just have to plant the seed and let them grow it themselves. Maybe add a little water once in a while.

Like previous poster said, people mas say "thats not true" or "thats too depressing" but it farthest from the truth, very wise observation that is.

I just mean, think about it, every time you've said or thought something is not true, did you really mean it or did you really mean you were going to have to do some research on that subject to decide for your self?

I think there is probably three closet conspiracy theorists for every one that is up front about the issues.