Is it Really that Bad?

reply to post by marg6043


I will agree with you on the foriegn financed debt in this country. That needs to stop and immediately.

reply to post by dgtempe


You sound like my wife. She's also got the curse of a stubborn redneck for a husband.

I don't think the "It could happen to me" argument is very strong, though it is probably cautiously wise. It's always good to be prepared. My parents took a ton of heat for stocking up on food before Y2K. After it came and passed without incident my uncle was poking fun at my dad and asked him what he was goning to do with a couple months of canned goods and dry goods. My dad's response: "I reckon we'll eat them."

However, I don't think that the argument of "it could get worse" or "It could happen to me" is supporting the idea that things are worse now than they ever have been. Look at how many times in the past the same logic could be applied to historical situations! We could have been nuked by Russia. We could have been hit with SARS. We could have stayed in Vietnam for 100 years. It goes on. There are always pessimistic individuals who forsee tragedy and despair on the horizon. I simply recall that all 3 times in my life when a sitting 2 term president was on the way out there's been an election year recession.

I have two children under the age of 2. I want a better world for them, for sure. However, I'd be lying if I said I lost sleep at night over what kind of America they'll grow up in. I look at them and I look at the future of the country and I see see a bright future for them. If the worst things they ever have to confront is a personal budgeting plan and a competitive job market, then they'll have a pretty darn good life in front of them. I don't worry about our Constitutional rights being taken away because I've spent my life fighting against the steady stripping away of the Second Amendment, and the fight has been mostly a success as I still own my guns. I don't worry about wars, collapses, or disasters because hsitory has shown us that Americans have survived worse and will almost certainly face worse at some point in the far future. Of course I don't raise them to be reliant on government, so maybe that's a large part of it. If the stores closed tomorrow I have food stored, food growing, a river and lake to catch fish, and a mountain to hunt elk, rabbits, and deer off of. I was raised with that mentallity, taught to know the ways of our pioneering ancestors who faced real fears and real threats rather than rumors of threats and manufactured fears. So maybe having spent 32 years always "being prepared" has given me a different outlook on everything which allows me to enjoy the good and not dwell on whatever bad might be over the horizon but rather remember the bad that's already come and left to keep a firm perspective on how things are right now.

Seriously, just because someone says it's bad right now doesn't mean it's true. Just like me saying it isn't that bad doesn't make that true, either. It's all relative and all dependent on your own personal viewpoint and where you are today vs where you've been.

reply to post by jimmyx
Congratulations on making the American dream come true. It could not have been accomplished without you and your spouse working hard and planning ahead.

Do post here when you return from your trip. It will be interesting to hear what conditions are where ever you travel. If it were not for my garden growing and my 4 little dogs I would be going on a vacation also. You can bet I will be traveling after my garden is done and in jars.

There is no need to sit at home and moan and groan about the world situation. That is just borrowing trouble. Yes be prepared for disaster but don't let ruin a good day.

I am now living through the best time in my life. I lived through the 50's until now ( born 1947 ) and worked my arse off until last year. I have given my money and time to world missions and contribute to many charities.

Life is very good in my corner of the world. I do what I can to help others. And frankly I don't give a damn what anyone thinks of me or the way I live.

I do not apologize for my attitude.

You have a safe trip and enjoy the fruits of your labor.

reply to post by dgtempe


Did you notice that I asked..."What can we do?" That was a serious question and not just a hyopthetical one. I really would love to know what we, who are doing ok, can do to help those, that are not doing ok. Should we give to food banks? Should we give some of our money to charities? What can the small person do to make changes during this time?

Tela

reply to post by dgtempe


Since the constition was signed, our liberties have been being stripped?

There was always airport security.. now they just pretend like they do more..

And there will always be people who don't like the political ideologies in power.

Anyone who knows the basics of macro economics and history in its true context know that in fact things are in fact that Bad....

But is that negative..?

That the current world economic model isn’t working?

Its seems pretty obvious to me that it is truly amazing when things are GOOD, well at least a bit stable anyhow for cyclic 7-12 year periods!

The thing that is different now to any time in the past is how the capital wealth has migrated from countries/families owning most of the wealth to Corporations....

The large ones now rank amongst many western countries in terms of real capital wealth....

That’s people with historically short time periods of 2-5 yrs running, controlling, shaping and affecting our lives and the corporations whilst we pay them to do it, often work within those very organisations in bad environmental/social situations and they just want to take more of our time/money for the privilege!

The fact however that they do have this huge amount of the worlds wealth though means that as more time progresses until the next REAL Crunch or stock market crash the risks get higher...

The affects of a loss seen now by the financial service, and Banking sector firms,

Being played out by the world’s largest 5 corporations would make San Francisco in the great depression seem normal!

Well a World War just before, or after this situation,
when the common man is faced with the absurdity of the masks, now so apparent in the people, companies that control his life,
that he sweats and gives his most valuable thing to his, time here, whilst alive, when they cant help feed his children. Aren’t giving him bits of paper to so he can buy fuel, keep warm pay the vets and doctors bills... is usually the "solution" ....

So on that as mentioned by an earlier poster negative point, I will leave the "crisis" things being that Bad and postulate now that as said it might not be bad after all if the worse nightmares regarding this do infact play out, how so?

Painful and of no quick solution but maybe just maybe with these historical facts now mainstream, the way its harder for governments/families to create such global restructuring plans so easily... look at the opposition to the last Iraq war in the UN recently never mind the view of the person in the street...

The propaganda may be more encompassing now and pervasive but also too is the access to knowledge, information and sharing of this instantly and worldwide (nearly so!)... It would be much harder to do now... maybe though Iran (prays not)...

Therefore a real crash now may lead too such untested and unparalleled circumstances that a new model or rather, the management of the model with new parameters, vis a vis environmental, social, fair-trade etc would be born.

Maybe just maybe not from the governments/families this time, maybe the ruined companies & corporations would in this new environment be forced to adapt to the new emerging desires from its consumers, which would probably have new values along the line of social, environmental, economic, views after such a depression.

They would invariably not allow such a situation to reoccur if no great sideshow e.g. war, 9/11 etc was distracting the collective conscious! The pyramid structure, top down would be impossible because everyone would be on the base and building a pyramid together!

The hiding, manipulation, control hat has permeated the "western/developed" (and I mean here past civilisations in the "third world" now) control of human development or Path would be very open and plain too see, just look at the freedom of my thoughts here and now... NEVER BEFORE could a majority see it, your thoughts and too, or a new way, teaching from a great human (and I pray for one of those too because we need one now, like no other time in history when they have manifested ), see and hear, see save this information.

"The power of the the pen is Mightier than the Sword" and all that lol,,,

So I remain a optimistic realist on this, in how it affects me, my loved ones, you included and yours too!

......................................................
Having said this however it is important I think for all of us to remember something... the context in which most of the internet, the news, the corporations as well is framed in the "western" experience. (I use that term broadly as it will no doubt in 50 years be changed to the "east" :-)
If say you are say a average American, in the context of this post by the time you read this sentence to the full stop after this these three, wait for it... 12 children will have died from starvation. 12 children.

However in this threads context and what most of us talk about, experience live in, worry about is such a minority.... those 12 children probably 13 by now! if you stopped and thought about that?

Are from the TWO THIRDS of the worlds population (and that is a ****ing majority if ive ever seen one!) we forget about.
For those you, me , US worrying about real estate or pension plans seems ridiculous... they are worrying about there next meal, maybe the first in a week, or a month.

London , San Francisco in a terrible depression I mention earlier would have no impact on them anyhow, except they would probably not get so much pollution from western factories , mines etc, for the truly poor of this world our hell has been that majorities norm for sooo long.


well well well what a level playing field that would be, and maybe something soo desperately needed can come of it, not a pyramid but wonderful mmm lets say egg, ball circular structure could be admired by people in generations to come.

About 16 children have died now whilst you read this, their mother's are now holding their dead children, crying, mourning, because they had no food for for them.

One mother thinks in her anguish its not like the nice man from Monsanto said, he said the seeds were the best in the world, but we didnt understand that next ears bag of seeds after using sterile ones for a year would be soo expensive. But the first bag was free!

I don't know another mother cries, I tried soo hard to give him milk, but the weather has changed since my grandmothers time, it does not rain like it used to here! I couldn't make milk from dirt, even the goats have gone! The nice man with a bright smile from Nestle said he would help, he gave me some free powdered milk formula, Natasha was getting better for a couple of weeks, but no more was free, and now because I topped trying to suckle Natasha my breasts have dried up. I couldn't find clean water, I walked for 15 miles today in the blistering sun looking for water. I found some muddy water in a old riverbed I stayed thirsty myself and made some milk for Natasha she is so little and ill, soo thirtsy and hungry and scared

that was early this morning before it got too hot, im soo tired, She got sick then tonight and now she is gone and dead, MY god why?

yep THINGS ARE REALLY THAT BAD

care to change them NOW for one of those 20? Is there anything more innocent and miraculous than children?

If you have a heart you will go here! Save The Children

How dare we? A mill stone and lots of water comes too mind!

Kind Regards

MischeviousElf
MischeviouslyDreamingOfABetterWay

[edit on 25-4-2008 by MischeviousElf]

reply to post by Telafree

Good post. Nothing wrong with being happy and positive.

What is the point of being negative and gloomy. To those that are negative I might suggest volunteering to help the less fortunate. Adopt a highway and pick up the trash. Visit the folks in the nursing home.

We all have an idea of what may come but how productive is it to sit around picking apart those folks that have worked hard and are enjoying themselves.

Negative means no. It is a non productive attitude. And....it is contagious.

As far as getting flamed........I'm not ducking.

Spread hope not doom.

reply to post by Rockpuck
You forgot to call me darling.



___________________________________

Tela, well i do agree with what can we do? i neglected to address that a bit, didnt i.
I'll tell you what- Something has happened to society, i dont know if its all the fear-mongering, or what have you..we're bombarded on a daily basis with some "fear" that is keeping people subdued. I am curious myself about this. I beleive if this was happening in the 60's everyone would hit the streets, hopefully peacefully, and come together to address the issues.
The problem seems to be that to do so now, would get you arrested and probably sent to beautiful Cuba, and nobody wants to go there to be trapped inside a chicken wire fence.
So, since evidently, we have lost some freedoms of speech, its easier to just sit back and wait for the shoe to drop than to take some action.

Calling government offices isnt going to help you.

Standing downtown Hyannis on Main St, wearing a sandwich board is only going to get me a guaranteed trip and three squares a day.

I think people feel trapped. I dont know what to do. I am a peaceful person by nature, anyway..i just hate violence of any kind.

So i ask you, what do we do?

Originally posted by dgtempe
Something has happened to society, i dont know if its all the fear-mongering, or what have you..we're bombarded on a daily basis with some "fear" that is keeping people subdued.

I think that people are lulled into thinking that those petitions they sign online do more then they really do. I think the youth of today is so tied to their electronics that they wouldn't know how to get past that unknown'fear' that 'they' are perpetrating.

I beleive if this was happening in the 60's everyone would hit the streets, hopefully peacefully, and come together to address the issues.
The problem seems to be that to do so now, would get you arrested and probably sent to beautiful Cuba, and nobody wants to go there to be trapped inside a chicken wire fence.

The city that I live in has protestors protesting weekly. Sometimes three times a week. I see them downtown all the time. I don't know where you live, but that's what it's like where I live. There were even some protestors a couple blocks from my work yesterday. And it was the second time they were there in a week. People don't get arrested for protesting in Portland.

Calling government offices isnt going to help you.

You don't think so? I think its one thing people can do. Leave messages for their senators. Afterall, we did vote for them and it's our duty to call them when we don't agree with whats going on. I can't think of anything else to do beyond that.

Standing downtown Hyannis on Main St, wearing a sandwich board is only going to get me a guaranteed trip and three squares a day.

I bet you'd be surprised at how many people honk at you, not the jail cell that you would NOT end up in. It's still legal to peacefully protest, just make sure you get the propert permits. that's all there really is to it.

I think people feel trapped. I dont know what to do.

That's pretty much how I feel. And I am a peaceful person as well. I don't agree with violence as the answer to anything, but that just leaves us open for attacks wouldn't you think?

So i ask you, what do we do?

I really don't know, I asked you first

Tela

reply to post by MischeviousElf


I can tell you why a depression hitting America or the rest of teh Western world matters so much to the third world. Where do you think what little food and medicine they have comes from? It comes from us. Prosperous westerners who donate millions of dollars to charitable organizations around the globe both privately and in the form of aid from our government to them. The US is the most internationally charitable country on the planet. Do you really think that gravy train will continue if we suddenly hit a great depression? I try to give to charities every year. (and I don't mean nonsense or frivalous charities, either. I'm referring to the type of chjarities like feed the children.) With 2 children of my own to feed I can tell you unequivacably that donating would cease in a heartbeat if my family fell on even marginally hard times. A lot of these people who only get a few meals a week, as you pointed out, from international aid will almost certainly notice if those feedings drop to only a couple a week, then to one a week, then to one every other week, finally to nothing as they and those around them die from lack of food aid. I think then they'll definitely notice and grieve over a depression hitting America.

I can remember the misery index and Saint Ronald Reagen asking "are you better off now than you were a year ago" with a bemused Jimmy Carter looking on.

He also made a comment I have held close to me ever since. "If your neighbor is laid off, its a recession. If your laid off, its a depression." No truer words spoken close to 30 years ago.

My parents went through the real depression with my oldest brother. Times were different, the world was different. Mom is still alive and has her faculties so she can talk coherently. She also reads the paper and watches news. She tells me we are in trouble as a nation. I believe her.

I think it is going to get worse. I happen to have a job that someone always needs, but then, I own the company.

reply to post by Telafree


I hear you loud and clear.

I guess we'll just have to wait for those darn aliens to show themselves and start helping the helpless.

Simply put without all these huge posts. The fed has been pumping millions - possibly billions, my memorys a little shaky - into the stock market. They are not calling for a "recession". They are calling for complete economic collapse. Which happens in an instant and has obviously not happened yet. Hold on tight, I promise you the schit will indeed hit the fan.

reply to post by burdman30ott6


I know, but do you know that without that foreign help our nation would not be able to even pay their own government salaries.

Also do you know that when last year US put his debt in the auction block China boycott US and didn't show up, this wasn't even in the news.

If any nation wants to hurt American this the way to do it. We are a nation that is not longer self sustained.

A Bankrupt Superpower

www.economyincrisis.org...

Sad.



[edit on 25-4-2008 by marg6043]

One big difference between now "and back when" (and something most don't take seriously enough) is that we have almost stripped our planet bare of resources and destroyed the environment. Recent estimates are that it will take "two earths" to support the current consumption levels of the population in the next few decades. We are also on the verge of a mass extinction event and very few folks are smart enough to realize that THIS IS THE BIG PROBLEM THAT WON'T GO AWAY! We are about to get "wake up calls" from mother nature that will make our other petty problems pale in comparison.

No offense taken. Yes having gone from bad to good, I'm 100% okay and happy with preparing for bad again and I feel with my kind of thinking, I'll have a better chance and less shock when it comes to dealing with shortages of any kind.

As for my attitude, I think it's a realist attitude. From experience I know things can change quickly and rapidly even with government trying to do their part... but once key infrastructure breaks down, deterioration is rapid and inevitable.


Mischievous Elf....... Save the Children is one of best charities out there imo and I'm proud to be a regular contributer, just wish I could do more on that level.



What can Americans do..... wake up and smell the imported coffee!!!!!! Learn to be self sufficient, learn to live within your means... don't tell me you're living paycheck to paycheck after you just did your hair and nails and bought a new outfit because it's a weekend. If people actually lived within their means and didn't try to keep up with the Joneses, perhaps they would be happier and we wouldn't have a housing and credit crisis. Perhaps if people stopped investing in paper and actually saved their money... we might not have the same economic issues we have now.


[edit on 4-25-2008 by worldwatcher]

Things are superficially not so bad right now, but when you look at the dark underbelly of our country, things look a whole lot different.

We have over a million homeless people now, and more joing their ranks daily, the cost of living is increasing weekly anymore, you're individual rights are slowly being stripped away from you, and the house of cards that is our country, may come tumbling down about our ears at any moment.

Sure, most of you have jobs right now, can afford gas for your cars, and have food to put on your tables, and feel pretty secure at the moment, but all that can change overnight.

All it takes is the loss of your job, and the whole picture changes quickly. Most people are just 1 or 2 paychecks away from being homeless nowadays. Once you find yourself on the street, prepare to be treated as if your invisible.

No one will see you, much less offer you a chance to get back on your feet. You'll be on your own with no net to break your fall.



[edit on 4/25/08 by LLoyd45]

Not only are we THAT BAD, but, in the event of a DEPRESSION, which is not unlikely, if you really follow the trends. People were better off during the 30s than we would be now. Why? During that time, there was plenty of arable land and farms were everywhere. People could actually grow their own crops and at least not die of hunger.

I also remember the 70s and 80s. I have never seen a confluence of events taking place all at the same time: fuel prices, credit/mortgage crisis, unemployment, war (..and likely more war), dollar hitting bottom... and I could go on and on. But I'm sure you get my drift.

We have the worst government that has ever taken power: Democratic Congress or our Executive branch (... and I'm embarrassed to say I am a Republican). Everything you see is just an illusion. Ethanol is good for the environment? Wrong!!! ADM says so, so they can sell more corn/ethanol to the oil companies and make more profit, which allows the oil companies to get a juicy tax credit for mixing ethanol with gas, while the rest of the world pays the price.

Enough said! We are definitely worse than before. Brace yourself!!!


[edit on 25-4-2008 by manticore]

I live within my means. I get to eat every day. I am currently not working. We are able to pay the mortgage. I do not have high speed Internet. I do not go out on shopping sprees. I knew this would all have to end when my job ended.
My husband has a pick up truck all paid for. My car is not on the road at the moment (no real need for it). I cancelled my cell phone.

I DO LIVE WITHIN MY MEANS- however, the food shopping experiences lately have been heartbreaking. $200.00 here in Cape Cod for a little food for the week. Heating oil close to $600.00 a month. Gas thru the roof.

I DO LIVE WITHIN MY MEANS. It just peeves me off so badly when people keep saying "if only you lived within your means you'd be fine"
BS.

I am finding it hard LIVING WITHIN MY MEANS. I dont care any one else does with their money- i know i scrimp and save everything i have and its tough, TOUGHER than its ever been.

Perhaps im in the wrong place? It could be. Now, if you were to tell me to move someplace else in order to have a better standard of living, i could understand that. But dont assume all people are throwing their money out the window, or blowing it on beauty parlors. I'll let you all on a little secret? My SON trimmed my hair last week, and he's no hairdresser!!!!!

I would suggest instead of looking at your own experiences, try looking at the whole picture. You may be better off right now, you may have more gas available, and YOUR bank may not be having problems, but many other people are having problems.

Many people I know personally who bought a nice suburban house after "flipping" a few smaller houses are going bankrupt. Some people are getting fired.

Also, you might look at some different statistics. According to the gov, inflation is around what, 3 or 4%? well according to others, it may be well above 8 or 9%, up to 12% or higher.

You have no problem getting gas now and there is no lines? Well no one has really said anything about that happening. But they have said it could happen in the future. What about when there is gas, but you, or others, do not have enough money to purchase it? Either gas or food. Hard choice.

Anyways, you make a decent point, but I have to say I think you are wrong, and things will get worse before they get better.