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Boeing formally offers F/A-18 for indian MMRCA

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posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by intelgurl
All that considered, Russia may still have the best financial deal for India.


As well as common weapons and possibly shared systems with the Su-30 MKI and the MiG-35.



That is something seldom mentioned but very important.

Logistics are every bit as key to fighting a war as all out capabilities.




posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 10:22 AM
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Regarding offsets:

India has stipulated 50% give or take (Everything is open to negotiation) however, that may not neccesrily mean actual fighter production. The overall goal for the Indian government is to help improve thier own production technology and aerospace industry etc. Unless they specified actual production of the fighter itself offsets could also be in the form of guarranteed work for other projects.

They could say make wing panels for the 737 or Boeing could open up a development center hiring 100's of enginneers etc.

Offsets can really be anything that suits the government.

If its actualy fighter production, I have to agree with intelgurl that Mig is in the best spot followed by LockMart.



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by emile
MRCA stand for multi-role-combat-aircraft. So India didn't want a pure supiority fighter but a fighter with powerful anti-ground capability. So both Eurofighter and F-18E/F are the optimized choise, not only capability they have but also profit their LCA project by F414 or EJ200 refitted on perhaps.


Interesting, I was always understood it to be the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft. Also, it should be noted that the MiG-35 is most definitely not an air superiority fighter. The aircraft was designed to counter aircraft like the F-16, which we understand is fairly multirole in nature. And, indeed, the MiG-35 is pretty up-to-date with Russian arms.


MiG 35's Armament consists of 1x 30 mm GSh-30-1 cannon with 150 rounds, Eight weapon pylons for R-27, R-60, R-73, R-77, TV and Laser-Guided Air to ground missiles and bombs. One centerline pylon for external fuel tanks(Details to be confirmed), Up to 2000 lbs of bombs (Details to be confirmed) while its avionics package includes just the Phazotron N-109 radar Zhuk AE.


India Defense Link

And it isn't like the Russian Air-to-Ground missiles are slouches.

Kh-29
Kh-31
KAB-500L
And then there's the series of FAB unguided bombs.

An excellent complement to the ground strikes is the MiG-35's nifty OLS, which allows for imaging capabilities of the target simply not present in other offered aircraft.


For ground targets, the suite allows:

* A tank-effective detection range up to 15 km, and aircraft carrier detection at 60 to 80 km;
* Identification of the tank type on the 8 to 10 km range, and of an aircraft carrier at 40 to 60 km; and
* Estimates of ground target range of up to 20 km.


Ultimately, I'm not sure that saying that the Super Hornet completely outclasses the MiG-35 in terms of Air-to-Ground capability, although it can carry more bombs. What must be noted, though, is that if sheer number of bombs is a concern you could just go with the Su-30 MKI, which can carry quite a few and has pretty reasonable AtG capabilities.

Rant make stop now.



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 11:48 AM
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Originally posted by FredT The overall goal for the Indian government is to help improve thier own production technology and aerospace industry etc.


Bingo.

MiG-35, Grippen/Rafale, F-16. They're developing a new fifth gen, they aren't going to want to spend the cash for a small number of SH's. Rafale (unless Dassault bends over just to get a customer), or Eurofighter. It doesn't make sense.



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 12:03 PM
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reply to post by _Del_
 


Dassault (aka the French government) may just be that desperate. They badly need an export or the line is pretty much dead.



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 02:53 PM
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very true but the french themselves are to blame with aweful marketting - they had the sale sown up and virtually threw it away.

edit:

in reagrds to morocco i meant

[edit on 26/4/08 by Harlequin]



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 02:59 PM
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reply to post by Harlequin
 


Its an excellent aircraft, but who is going to buy it with such a small installed base? If it had any edge over the Typhoon (The only one is really the naval aspect) that would be more than overcome by the cost issues of even basic MRO for the airframe. Buying the Typhoon, The Mig, The F-18 gives you a much larger base. The Grippen has a small installed base as well.



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 03:59 PM
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reply to post by FredT
 


small maybe - but they actually have more sales for foreign operators than the typhoon has , as of now there are 236 orders (32 orders and 204 in service) gripens , rafale stands at 120 ordered (out of 171 - although it looks like libya will buy 18 as well) typhoon right now has 157 in service (with another 130 on order)

so by the numbers - gripen actually has the biggest user base outside of the US built aircraft


yes the UK actually has 1 gripen at the ETPS so gripen stands at 6 operators to typhoons 5



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 04:08 PM
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reply to post by Harlequin
 


You got me there. I thought the rafale had Zero sales outside of France. Shows you how much I know.

But the Typhoon will be going to Tranch 3 pretty soon so those numbers will go up. I still hope in the ultimate longshot that the USAF will take a hard look at the Typhoon



posted on Apr, 26 2008 @ 04:24 PM
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you are right - rafale hasn`t sold any outside of france - they had the morocco deal sown up then blew it , so libya looks like the only foreign sale IF it happens


gripen is the one will all the foreign sales - its a quiet little earner really



posted on Apr, 27 2008 @ 12:44 AM
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f-35 is out but its an overkill wrt role and budget. We won't be able to pay for it with or w/o tech transfer.

The eval pilots like the Gripen. The F-16 has been able to make deep inroads into the evaluation board; with lots of senior brass supporting it now. I'm not sure how the pilots feel about it though.

The MiG 29/35 is familiar ground for the IAF , but not necessarily a fav a/c, esp since the induction last time round during the early 90s when servicibility of newly delivered a/c was a shocking ~25%. since then, with avionics, engine and
radar upgrades, the a/c has performed satisfactorily in live operational scenarios (Kargil).

The Rafale... well if they manage to convince the decision makers that its the Mirage 2K and much more then they stand a very good chance (plus they will have to cut unit prices). Haven't heard much about this a/c except that its too exp.

I don't have any grapevine info on the F-18 or the Typhoon. Typhoon's an overkill (role and budger) again so I don't think its a frontrunner.

From what I've heard, the MiG 35 is not a 'clear frontrunner'. The F-16, MiG-35 and Gripen are even steven; perhaps the Gripen is a little behind due to logistical unfamiliarity.



posted on Apr, 27 2008 @ 04:46 AM
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reply to post by Darkpr0
 


Before I posted I had known you could see through all of what I seen. I just posted something you were slothful to say for earning more points.


I lost the first M that stand for Midium Which means MiG-35 and even Gripen N could be an option. Let's use method of elimination for some lighter option including F-16XL, which one India will prefer?

The F-16XL is a nicelooking fighter with intensified AtG capability. Thanks to the most supiority engine, plus the aerodynemical profile, F-16XL factually is a single engine F-15I. If the engine tech transfering is not in the consideration, will we agree F-16XL is a cogent option with 2wind and SHE?

But we all stand at the position that India steathily want engine tech via this purchasing time. In addition to the F-16XL should have to be renew the product line because the structure of it is far different from original F-16 designation, so how ascending the price will be we had already imaged.

If India will take F-16XL why they don't take MiG-35 and GripenN those engine tech will be benefit from? Then compare with the MIG-35 and GripenN I rather steal engine from GripenN than MiG-35, you must agree with me for this I believe. But eccept the brokeage US are satisfied enough, is it possible that US allow the F414 will be fitted on Gripen transfer to india? My answer is no. and pric problems etc etc.....

Then only 2wind and SHE remaining, both of three has engine India coveted as I have already said this time, India is seeking MRCA not an air-supiority fighter since they have got Su-30MKI. I am glade to see India import Typhoon to make Beijing uncomfortable and Karachi is repentant of not import J-10 as quick as possible. But objectively, eccept India has know that counter-air capable of Eurofighter is go ahead of Su-30MKI so far away since they made rival with them, purchase Eurofighter is unnecessary the rather that power of EJ200 is less than F414 up to now. Even though Eurofighter beyound Su-30MKI at all aspect, India import Eurofighter that is like to slap own face.

At last, only two join the competition. On dogfight performence, according to aerodynamical design and T/W rate, wing load, etc specifications, we have to say Rafale is better than SHE a little. Consider the performance of AtG, I have to admit SHE is an optimized choice. Think about the possible price and even political ingredient, I bet shoosing SHE is the logical behavior India will do, but only inferentially.



posted on Apr, 27 2008 @ 05:45 AM
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Originally posted by FredT

But the Typhoon will be going to Tranch 3 pretty soon so those numbers will go up. I still hope in the ultimate longshot that the USAF will take a hard look at the Typhoon


They need to do something. Its disgusting to let their planes run down
through up tempo war and war like missions.
The USAF has been caught napping and not just fighters either.
All projects should of been sped up to say, to combat fatigue issues
in the fighters and cargo aircrafts.
Maybe a large batch of The T-50 Golden Eagles with northrops scaleable
aesa radar with M61 cannon, amraams and aim9x to protect the USA and airbases and major cities.
Similar to the UK hawks that use to be armed up as airfield defence fighters. ( I dont know if this still happens though )

golden eagle
sabr

Just a thought really.



posted on Apr, 27 2008 @ 05:56 AM
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reply to post by emile
 



But we all stand at the position that India steathily want engine tech via this purchasing time. In addition to the F-16XL should have to be renew the product line because the structure of it is far different from original F-16 designation, so how ascending the price will be we had already imaged.


i allready posted that the F-16IN is NOT the F-16XL - the offering from lockmart is an AESA equipped F16 , the delta XL is a false idea for this programme - it is dead and buried.

indianaerospace.files.wordpress.com...

indianaerospace.files.wordpress.com...

that is the aircraft offered.



posted on Apr, 27 2008 @ 06:20 AM
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Originally posted by emile
reply to post by Darkpr0
 

If India will take F-16XL why they don't take MiG-35 and GripenN those engine tech will be benefit from? Then compare with the MIG-35 and GripenN I rather steal engine from GripenN than MiG-35, you must agree with me for this I believe. But eccept the brokeage US are satisfied enough, is it possible that US allow the F414 will be fitted on Gripen transfer to india? My answer is no. and pric problems etc etc.....


Firstly, as Harley stated, no XL, only IN ; a blk 70. Secondly there is no underhanded ulterior motive for engine tech; its all very transparent. RFIs have been sent out to various engine makers to assist with the kaveri screwups and this process is independent of the MMRCA fighter bid.



Even though Eurofighter beyound Su-30MKI at all aspect, India import Eurofighter that is like to slap own face.


Ah well..



posted on Apr, 27 2008 @ 08:53 AM
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If it is only a F-16C/D block 70, then surely no so-called supercruise capability at all.



posted on Apr, 27 2008 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by Harlequin
i allready posted that the F-16IN is NOT the F-16XL - the offering from lockmart is an AESA equipped F16 , the delta XL is a false idea for this programme - it is dead and buried.

Yeah, I'll take the blame for the misnomer concerning the XL. A few weeks ago I posted that the F-16 XL was in the mix for the F-16IN. I in fact had misread the article - I think it was in Aviation Week. What was actually meant was that the F-16IN would have much of the same system functionality that the XL had.

Still a cool idea but I was wrong. I admit it.



posted on Apr, 27 2008 @ 01:36 PM
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reply to post by intelgurl
 


there was more than a few links about the F16XL being offered - it was only when lockmart themselves posted teh offered aircraft all the speculation calmed down

nothing wrong with posting a scoop my lady



posted on Apr, 28 2008 @ 04:32 AM
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Yes, even me believed F-16XL reproducted for India asked is possible. There are some report told us French had offered Mirage 4000 why not F-16XL? But that concept of supercruise was overruned everywhere indeed.



posted on Apr, 28 2008 @ 10:14 AM
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reply to post by emile
 


Emile, the Mirage 4000 was never offered, the only prospect that aircraft ever had of reaching production died when the RSAF ordered the F-15.



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