Convincing Another...

I'm neither a skeptic or a believer, in aliens, government conspiracies and all the stuff that these forums cater to. Call me a gray, as i'm in between (funny how your aliens are called 'grays').

In the past couple months, however, i've been having ongoing discussions with my peers and colleagues, mainly my brother, about the possibly existence of aliens, and their 'on-going' presence on planet Earth. Most of them are pure-bred skeptics.

My goal in generating this thread is to have some of the senior ATSer's post some of the sources that got them leaning towards the believer side. These sources will be a great source for new users of ATS, and might turn my colleagues, and myself, away from the skeptic side towards the gray, and maybe even the believer side.

Thank you all in advance, the crab with one claw,

Crabmeat.

[edit on 24-4-2008 by Crabmeat]

I have no sources but the best one is your own personal experiences. I guess when the time is right you’ll get your fair share of the ‘paranormal’ or whatever terminologies people come up with to justify and describe these spontaneous events.

There isn't an article,picture, video footage, news reel, testimony, or hard piece of evidence on this planet or any other, that will convince a sceptic that aliens and their craft truley exist.
What your friends and indeed much of this planet suffer from is not scepticism but pure unadulterated FEAR! Their deeply held firmly rooted
beliefs are well intact and right where they should be untill people like you come along and try to "convince" them that they might be in a mind prison called religion or one of the many other mind prisons that are out there, and that maybe they ought to investigate the possibility that their deeply held firmly planted beliefs MIGHT BE waaaaaaaaay off base. That's a hard pill to swallow.

I'll leave you with this.
Scientists ALWAYS round up or down based on where the numbers are.
We know that we live on a planet in a solar system and that solar system is on the edge of a massive galaxy. We know that in this "Galaxy there are hundreds of BILLIONS of other stars. We know that each one of these stars has the possibility of having one or more planets orbiting them.
We also know that our galaxy with all of it's stars and planets is only one of "HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS" of other galaxies in the universe.
Given all of that, If we are to believe that we are the only life in the universe then statisically speaking, going by the numbers, if you were to ask a scientist, if you were to round to the nearest whole number,
WE DON'T EXIST!!! and there is NO life in the universe.

i look to the skies often yet since i was young a UFO sighting has never befell my eyes. I see plenty of video footage on the internet or on TV, but never one with my own two eyes. However some of the video's are really very compelling. Some of the sources are also very compelling. A lot, if not the majority, of them are completely contrived.

Any source which made you a believer, or maybe a combination of 3 or 4, would be an appreciated contribution.

For me, testimony from millions of people worldwide, or thousands of qualified witnesses (pilots, astronomers, police, army) who have nothing to gain + a personal experience is proof enough of the existence of unexplainable UFO. There are two problems with this. First the UFO don't wait for scientists to scrutinize and make experiments. Second, the interpretation of what they are, alien or not is anyone's guess. I think alien is the least hypothesis. A hidden Earth-based civilization is even more unbelievable.

Originally posted by Crabmeat
I'm neither a skeptic or a believer, in aliens, government conspiracies and all the stuff that these forums cater to. Call me a gray, as i'm in between (funny how your aliens are called 'grays').
[edit on 24-4-2008 by Crabmeat]

I'm not a 'Senior ATSer', whatever that might be, but hopefully you don't mind my responding.

For me, it was the personal testimony of a long-time friend who is scientifically trained. He only told me after many years. He witnessed a light for approx 40 mins and well and truly knows enough to rule out possible explanations given the behavior of the light.

Now, this testimony means a great deal to me because I know the person, I know his knowledge, and have done for a long time. But obviously that's no use to you directly. However, if I were you I'd probe lightly with a few people you do know and trust.

The COMETA report seems to me worthwile reading, though I have only briefly searched for criticisms (mind you, criticisms of anything plausible often don't help me make my mind up).

I agree with everything nabalator says personally, except that "alien is the least hypothesis" (should that be last?).

I have a thing about what I see as a horrendous misunderstanding of the burden of proof, but I'll leave that for another thread ...

Cheers, 9

Originally posted by 987931
I agree with everything nabalator says personally, except that "alien is the least hypothesis" (should that be last?).

Mmm. No.
I meant of all the explanations for UFO I am aware of, aliens visitors is the most plausible explanation for the many interesting and really weird cases. Call me naive if you like, I have no better idea.

Let's see:
- alien visitors (from distant planets/stars/galaxies or other dimensions),
- time travelers from the future
- military experiments
- misinterpretations
- hoaxes

Did I forget something? Maybe 99% of the pictures and videos of UFO are fakes or misinterpretations, but I trust people, especially credible, multiple witnesses much more than uncredited pictures and videos.

[edit on 2008-4-24 by nablator]

Originally posted by 987931
The COMETA report seems to me worthwile reading, though I have only briefly searched for criticisms (mind you, criticisms of anything plausible often don't help me make my mind up).

Since you mention the COMETA report, I have no reason to doubt the conclusions of experts. Well, I'm French.

In its conclusion, COMETA claims that the physical reality of UFOs, under control of intelligent beings, is "quasi certain". Only one hypothesis takes into account the available data: the hypothesis of extraterrestrial visitors.

the most convincing argument for the existence of UFO's and alien visitation, atleast for me, is the uncanny overlap that many brilliant religious scholars find when scrutinizing the bible with a scientific outlook.

many people say that religion discounts the possibility of alien visitation because the bible refers to only one God. it is my firm belief, however, that the bible was given to man not to teach him of the existence of these aliens but rather to give us law/order in their absence. the inclusion of one God in this document given to us was necessary for the messages that we retain from it. it's plausible to think that if the bible referred to multiple Gods then the great scholars of it would be baffled and stuck to this point for 5000 years, rather than focusing on mans relation.

i'm not sure if this is so in other religions but it is so in Torah, the hebrew bible. i've even observed through my own studies of my peoples holy scripture that the narrations of God speaking isn't coherent throughout the bible. the mannerism in speech changes throughout. this to me is a clear cut sign that the God they speak of are multiple Gods. now i'm not a blasphemer, as my religion doesn't allow me to be. i still believe in a single creator that created the universe, but i don't believe this creator had direct contact with mankind as the bible claims.

Hi there Crabmeat!

I'm not sure if you've read this recommendation in another thread or not (I mention this case often, and I apologize if you've already checked it out) but I would highly recommend to you the Battle of Los Angeles. The link is in my signature. That case has multiple witnesses, many of whom were trained military professionals. I won't spoil it for you it you are new to the case, but I highly recommend your checking into it.

I've had my own personal sightings, and those are the most convincing evidence I've come across. But outside of firsthand testimony (which I don't expect anyone to believe since I don't have proof) the Battle of LA seems to have the most evidence and supporting data.

One of the most amazing pieces of data in that case are the two radar arrays that picked up the object's signal. There is also photographic evidence, and the UFO was fired upon with enough firepower to bring down anything Earthmade that would have been in the skies during 1942.



In my searching, I've found a few other cases that parralel the Battle of LA, and eventually will report on those cases here at ATS. However IMHO, the Battle of LA is THE case to talk about, when you are speaking to someone with a predisposition to 'think you are crazy'. A person is hard pressed to call you crazy when you can pile that much evidence in their lap just by supplying a link

I've yet to see ANY skeptic go through the evidence of that thread and come up with a feasible solution that fits the evidence (except for Nohup's Time Travellor theory, which I'll admit is possible, but not likely IMHO).

But seriously, there is no valid terrestrial explanation for that case. If anyone wants to suggest one, I'll certainly test it against the evidence for the case.

-WFA

Good idea for a thread. i am not an experienced ATSer, but his is my take on some phenomena which was largly ignored by alot of people who have made claims this thread was addressing, which was a bummer to say the least. www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by WitnessFromAfar


I'm really not the one to push anyone to the "believer" side, since I'm firmly in the "I have no idea" camp. But sinceyou asked, here are a couple of links that I think bear perusal-

This one is Gazrok's thread about some of the best UFO cases:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

And this one by jritzmann may be my all-time favorite ATS thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
That one raises a whole lot more questions than it answers, but if it doesn't give you goosebumps, get your pulse checked.

I'm not going to beat my very dead horse about how we "know" anything and perception vs reality or your very real experience isn't enough for me because it wasn't my experience, etc. but I think you get the drift.

Happy searching. We've got enough material, links & videos in the Aliens & UFOs forum to keep you busy for a long, long time.

Hello there Yeahright!

I think your post might actually have been in response to Crabmeat's question in the OP.

However, that being said I agree that both of the links you supplied are great cases! I link to them often as well. In fact, I used to have Gazrok's case linked in my sig, but my sig was getting too cluttered so I narrowed the linking down to just the BOLA thread.

Those are great reports though, and both Gazrok and Jeff Ritzmann are very thorough researchers

-WFA

reply to post by WitnessFromAfar


D'OH!! yes you're correct. That was actually a reply to Crabmeat (see, that makes me laugh to even type it). I'd go back and correct it, but as long as everyone knows what's what, I'll leave it there as a shining example of my inattentiveness.

Thanks and sorry and whatever. You know.

Dont try and wrangle them at your computer screen like some conspiracy nut. You will most likely end up looking like one.

Instead, gather your evidence, the best you know and download it into a summary which can be handed out in a folder and then let it go. Respect that they are skeptics, and let it go.

If they have questions, answer them as best you can if if you can't tell them so and offer to get back to them with a good answer after doing some research.

My suggestions would be the same as posted above. Get excellent eyewitness accounts from Astronauts, Police officers, Governors, Scientists. Stick at first with places like FOIA for Disclosed documents, as well as some good visual information starting with the cave drawings and paintings from long ago. Cross them with some resent pictures of craft that look similar.

Best of luck, but really you do not have to convince anyone.

Hello Crabmeat!
I think you are bringing up some good questions, not only for yourself, but for many others aswell.
I think there are too many who have formed an opinion on what media has brought out, also too many hoaxes.

But then we have the majority of people, who deals with it in another way, and that is like this:
"It doesn't happen to me, i have never seen anything, i've never experienced any thing, this is of no concern to me, i dont care."
Wrong or not, it would be interesting to see what happens if we got these folks "Interested".

As it were for me, i started with reading my brothers ufo magazines, and it kind of captured me, this enigma.
Then i got a bit older and it all was lost in school work, girls, partying.
Untill one day i was out walking with two of our dogs, in a very nice and calm forrest, early 90's i would guess.

I stopped to rest at a clearing, give the dogs some water and my self, and then suddenly everything got extremely quiet, not a chirp from a bird, my dogs were like frozen the first 15 seconds, i my self did not understand what had happened, i was like "uh, what's this" then i looked up, saw this immensly huge triangular craft.

It was probably half the size of a soccer field, not a sound, no air was moving at all.
Ofcourse i had no camera with me, mom and dad didn't trust their son with a new highly expensive polaroid camera.
It lasted for, 1-1.5 minute, swosh it was gone.

I'd say that, an experience is, almost needed to perk the interest up.
Explaining something to someone who have their mind set, is difficult, but not impossible.

I can't however say that my sighting was terrestrial or extra-terrestrial in origin.

Originally posted by nablator
I meant of all the explanations for UFO I am aware of, aliens visitors is the most plausible explanation for the many interesting and really weird cases. Call me naive if you like, I have no better idea.

Ca va? Je suis d'accord. I agree with you it's the most plausible. Better than invoking supernatural hypotheses surely.

Arrgh, wish I could remember French, it's just been too long and there is not much call for it in Australia.

Did I forget something? Maybe 99% of the pictures and videos of UFO are fakes or misinterpretations, but I trust people, especially credible, multiple witnesses much more than uncredited pictures and videos.
[edit on 2008-4-24 by nablator]

Why not 99.133% or perhaps 97.218%?

But I do agree with your basic point, about multiple credible witnesses, even though we use crude proxies for credibility that undoubtedly lead to many false negatives; i.e. falsely concluding someone is not credible simply because they don't have some kind of credentials or position, current or past, that makes them "credible". Does the fact I have a PhD or that am an acaedmic in a good university make me more credible than someone whose lifetime hobby has been astronomy and astrophysics, if that's what is called for in a particular case? (hypothetical since I don't claim to have ever seen anything worthy of investigation).

On a similar note, I'm glad to hear you think the COMETA carries some weight, being French and having the very healthy and robust skepticism you do. I agree -- I see no reason not to take the experts involved seriously.

Cheers, 9


[edit on 24-4-2008 by 987931]

Originally posted by antar
Dont try and wrangle them at your computer screen like some conspiracy nut. You will most likely end up looking like one.

Instead, gather your evidence, the best you know and download it into a summary which can be handed out in a folder and then let it go. Respect that they are skeptics, and let it go.

If they have questions, answer them as best you can if if you can't tell them so and offer to get back to them with a good answer after doing some research.

My suggestions would be the same as posted above. Get excellent eyewitness accounts from Astronauts, Police officers, Governors, Scientists. Stick at first with places like FOIA for Disclosed documents, as well as some good visual information starting with the cave drawings and paintings from long ago. Cross them with some resent pictures of craft that look similar.

Best of luck, but really you do not have to convince anyone.

I gotta say, very sage advice! I'm going to take it ;-) Thanks.

9

reply to post by Crabmeat


What an excellent little thread Crabmeat!

I'm what the true belivers here call a "die hard sceptic", I'm a theoretical physicist here in the UK and I've also been an amateur astronomer for 15 years. In those 15 years I have yet to see anything strange in the night sky- a shame really I should love to see a UFO.

I have yet to see any evidence that would indicate we are being visited by ETs. What I do find interesting is how keen people are to believe! The conspracy theory nonsense- i.e "We never went to the Moon because of Aliens", or "We went to the Moon and Saw aliens", and "NASA covers up alien bases on Mars" etc, etc all the usual fantasy prone rubbish do a great deal of harm to anyone who might want to consider the subject objectively.

I have never seen one item of evidence which has convinced me that we are not alone in the universe.

The book that made me believe we are not alone, was a book about astronomy.
It was when you look at the size and distances involved in the solar system, then relate it to the next nearest star, then to the galaxy, then to the universe, that pushes your brain to open up to the possibilites that we cant possibly be alone and it is our duty to find others

Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
- Douglas Adams