If reincarnation is true then...

So this is never going to end?!?!?!?! Ahhh, whatever... I just get frustrated thinking about these things, but i still like to talk about it.

No, eventually, at some point, you'll attain enlightenment, a point at which you will have grown to your limit, and then remerge with the universal consciousness (or God if that's what you want to call it), and basically be one with it... After that, it's uncharted territory....

So would you say that "first time around" souls are less experinced and less capable of dealing with life?

Yes, I would...

As for the pre-destined souls bit...I've never really bought into that idea much....though one might return willingly to accomplish a set ideal....

Originally posted by worldwatcher
if you don't agree, a simple "i don't agree" would be suffice.

I did it because I would love to know why I am being jerked around between life and death without understanding it. Since I cannot find a good explanation while alive, I guess I'll have to wait until I'm dead. Though I do not expect one then either.

Originally posted by Gazrok
As for the pre-destined souls bit...I've never really bought into that idea much....though one might return willingly to accomplish a set ideal....

So what you're saying is that we are all apparently far more willing to do crazy things when we're dead than when we're alive, right? Could you imagine (while being alive), somebody asking you to go to an unspecified job for an unspecified purpose and then being fired after the first week? I don't know how many takers you would get to such a bargain.

i'm having an off day, sorry, and I am having a hard time trying to put what I understand into words to help you who don't understand, reincarnation, do keep in mind that most religions did at one point agree on reincarnation.

Religious Scriptures:
Qur'an:
"Allah hath caused you to grow from the earth, and afterwards He maketh you return therto, and He will bring you forth again."

New Testament:
Matt. 17:12&13: "I tell you that Elijah has already come and people did not recognize him ... Then the disciples understood that he (Jesus) was talking to them about John the Baptist."

Matt. 11:14: "..and if you are willing to believe their message, John is Elijah, whose coming was predicted. Listen, then, if you have ears!"

John 3:6 Jesus: "A person is born physically of human parents, but he is born spiritually of the Spirit."

John 9:1 The disciples asked Jesus: "Teacher, whose sin caused him to be born blind? Was it his own or his parents' sin?" (How could his fault be considered when he was born blind?)

Note:
History shows that early Christians generally accepted the belief in reincarnation until the teachings of Origon became unpopular and the belief in reincarnation was banned.
(see Counsel of Nichaea 325 A. D. and of Constantinople 553 A. D.)
Origon, theologian, teacher, and founder of the early Catholic church, made it quite clear in his books (De Prindipiis and Contra Celsum) that he believed in the prenatal existence of the Soul.

Kabbala:
Here we find the concept mentioned in form of the "Gilgul".

Old Testament:
Malachi 4:5: "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and
dreadful day of the Lord."

The Bhagavad Gita:
2:22 "Even as a person casts off worn-out clothes and puts on others that are new, so the
embodied Self casts off worn-out bodies and enters into others that are new."

4:5 Krishna: "Many a birth have I passed through, and so have you.
I know them all, but you know them not."

Is there any Proof for Reincarnation?
1. It makes more sense when we consider the system of cause and effect, of sin and punishment, and of justice.

2. Weight is added when we consider the general agreement between the many nations and scriptures.

3. We have a weak form of proof from hypnotic regression.

4. We have strong suggestive case collections by Dr. Ian Stevenson, M.D., a professor of psychiatry. For more than 30 years he has collected and analyzed thousands of cases, all strongly supporting the existence of reincarnation.

5. Confirmed memories of various people.

Examples can be found in Ian Stevenson's books. In his "Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation," Stevenson describes cases from Ceylon, India, Brazil, Alaska, and Lebanon where small children were describing their previous lives, property, people they knew, their killers, etc. At times, these children even spoke in their previous language.
All these stories were checked out carefully and found to be correct, leaving us with some very impressive cases and a hard time to find any other logical conclusion other than Reincarnation is a fact. Of course, Reincarnation does not go on forever. Reincarnation finds its conclusion when Evolution has led the Soul back to its Source.

I also highly recommend a search on google, yahoo, your choice on reincarnation, there are many more learned people who can explain reincarnation to you better than I, and you can check these links

www.hinduwebsite.com...

www.som.org...

www.kriyayoga.com...

also do not confuse the pre-ordained with reincarnation.

as i stated, most people, not all believe in life being pre-ordained
however....even in eastern religions, different people believe different things. so don't generalize.

It is my opinion only, read and learn for yourself and come to your own conclusions

Buddhist don't believe in Reincarnation...

I'll explain later, gotta run right now.

So does this all mean that:

Retarded people were supposed to be retarded? Murdered babies were supposed to be murdered?
Insane people were to be institutionalized?
Young girls stripped of their innocence and sentenced to death after their kidnapper has raped them?

Where's the growth opportunity with these people? I don't see any. It's just a #ty world out there for some. And no I can't believe in this, but it's a nice thought to comfort people.

Originally posted by Gazrok
Not really...

When you are "with God" (or in my belief system, in your own universe), you don't really learn much to grow as a spiritual being... You don't have anything happen to you that you don't issue into being, so it gets boring after a while...kind of like a long lucid dream.... So, you ELECT to kind of wipe the slate clean a bit, and then go back and experience life, to further learn more insight... You retain some knowledge, in the form of your hunches, instincts, and inner voice....but you are also free to learn and experience the good with the bad...

It is a prison, but a voluntary one, when compared to the freedom of being virtually godlike.....

So in your beliefs, when you die and go back to God/Universe will all your memories of previous lives e.t.c. come back until you take the challenge again?

If reincarnation is true, then I can only see it working in a monetary style but with 'spiritual points' or something like that.

Imagine, you die, you proceed to float out of your body and you meet God or the Universal mind or whatever.

You: "Am I dead?"
God: "Yes and no, you see, your lives that you live are many and will continue forever. You were a very good soul in your previous life and your next life will be easier (predetermined) because you were so good.

You: "So since I led a good life I get a better one next time?"

God: "Yes, people who live good and decent lives and acquire knowledge and experiences will continue to have better lives. People who have had traumatic experiences were put there on their own accord, they weren't very good people and they need to experience bad things so they learn."

You: "But what about the people who kill, rape and cause chaos?"

God: "such people in their next lives will be the ones to experience the trauma they inflicted."

You: "So what kind of life do I get this time?"

God: "There are many worlds and lives to choose from, on Earth, you have been good enough to become rich and famous or a powerful elected leader, I could even put you in a different biological shell and you could do my work as an "Alien" of Earth.


Blah, blah, blah, I'm sure you all understand my thinking on this, I've already rambled for to long....

Originally posted by ---

Originally posted by ---
If reincarnation is real, and there is life on other planets, then how come we never hear about people who are alien beings reincarnated?

If you follow Buddhist belief in reincarnation, you "forget" your previous life, BUT are presented with problems in "living" life that allow you to better your "soul". For example everything is impermanent, therefore why carry the burden, of worrying about possesions. Yes that is the strict version of Buddhisim, but you can lead a normal life and be Buddhist, and still be able to "unburden" yourself from certain needs,wants, desires, etc. thus allowing you to obtain "enlightment"and not have to reincarnate again and become "one" with all. But that would bring to question, "If we become "one with all" at enlightment, wouldn't that mean that our "soul" is made of many other souls since a living being would still be a part of "all"?
And maybe giving credence to certain people being able to "be one with all" by meditation, trance or whatever?



[Edited on 26-2-2004 by NetStorm]

Ok, I am back, and will now explain...

To begin... I do not mean to pick out the above [quoted] post to bash, or flame it, the reason I am about to pick it apart is because I've noticed a few points that were abit off skew, and a question that I'd like to answer... (I'd also like to add that I am a buddhist, and all the info I'll be posting can be sourced back to the Tripitaka.)

If you follow Buddhist belief in reincarnation, you "forget" your previous life, BUT are presented with problems in "living" life that allow you to better your "soul".

To begin... Buddhist do not believe in "reincarnation", buddhist believe in "rebirth". The difference being that reincarnation is the transmigration of a "soul" from one body to another... Buddhism however does not acknowledge the existance of a soul (Atman), and instead is an "Anatta" (no soul) doctrine.

Right now someone reading this may be going "well if there is no soul, then what gets transmigrated where?"

-A being, (whether it be human being, or something greater, or lesser), is a combination of physical, and mental energies (They are the five aggregates... I will not explain this concept however, because it is a very complex subject that takes much time to explain. Still after reading this, If you would like me to try, and explain, ill take a shot at it.). What we call "death" is the total non-functioning of the physical body, but all the energies I spoke of earlier do not stop.

Will, volition, desire, thirst to exist, thirst to continue, desire to become more and more, is a tremendous force within us, a force that moves whole lives, whole existances, even the world... is the greatest force, the greatest energy in the world, and according to buddhism, this force does not stop with the non-functioning of the body, which is death, but it continues manifesting itself in another form, producing re-existance which we call rebirth.

As far as forgetting your previous life??

It is possible, but not very easy for us to actually verify our past lives. The nature of mind is such that it does not allow most people the recollection of their previous lives. Our minds are overpowered by the five hindrances:

1)sensual desire,
2)ill-will,
3)sloth,
4)restlessness and
5)doubt

because of these hindrances, our vision is earth-bound and we cannot visualise rebirths. Just as a mirror does not reflect an image when it is covered with dirt, so the mind does not allow most people the recollection of previous lives. We cannot see the stars during daytime,not because they are not there in the sky, but because they are outshone by the sunlight. Similarly, we cannot remember our past lives because our mind at present is always over-
burdened with many thoughts in the present day-to-day events and mundane circumstances. (WBB)

As far as problems arrising, so you can better your soul?

Problems do not arise out of no where, like all things, they are a reaction of something (past deed/karma).

***Before I continue I'd like to offer this reminder that I'm not trying to bash on the writer of the quoted reply (I've discluded the name) The reply hit most subjects that I wanted to talk about, so I'm using it as a reference for questions to answer.***

Yes that is the strict version of Buddhisim, but you can lead a normal life and be Buddhist, and still be able to "unburden" yourself from certain needs,wants, desires, etc. thus allowing you to obtain "enlightment"and not have to reincarnate again and become "one" with all.

Enlightenment is not becoming "one with all", this is a western view (of buddhist enlightenment), that I'm not sure where it arose from... enlightenment can happen to anyone, any time... It is to merely understanding, and begining to see clearly the way things work... if you finally begin to understand calculus you can finally say you've been enlightened... things are now becoming clear, and you can see the way things work, and how to accomplish the task at hand.

Nirvana on the other hand is different... I think this is what you meant by being "one with all"... but once again... "being one with all" is not 100% correct. Nirvana in sanskrit means "blowing out, extinction", and that is exactly what happens... the energy that I mentioned before, (the will to live on, to continue...) finally stops, and is no longer... meaning it is reborn, meaning... an end.

"If we become "one with all" at enlightment, wouldn't that mean that our "soul" is made of many other souls since a living being would still be a part of "all"?
And maybe giving credence to certain people being able to "be one with all" by meditation, trance or whatever?

As was explained earlier... there is no soul in buddhism... and upon reaching nirvana, there is no "becoming one with all" it is like a candle being blown out.

I do realize that this post is abit "confusing" I tried to cover many many many points it seems, and wound up loosing my intial point... I left out alot of info, in this post, and have included only major, major, major info... however this is like looking at a puzzle thats 3/4 of the way done...

Yes you can see what the puzzle picture is (its 3/4 done), but the picture is not complete.

In order for me to write a post that would cover each topic, and for me to include each detail, about each concept, i'd have to type for a life time, or perhaps write a book... that'd cut back on typing I bet, lol...

like I said I did not include all the details, so if anything is unclear, and needs more explaining feel free to ask, and I will try to answer, and if I cannot answer, i will try to lead you to someone, or something that can answer you're question.

Once again I did not pick apart the quoted post to be mean, or flame it, or anything. It merely had the topics I wanted to cover, so I used it as a frame of reference.

Anyhow peace and love to all beings,

_oui.

PS-sorry for the long post length

if reincarnation is real, then i was JAMES JOYCE in a previous life.....dont believe me? well, ok.

check out his BEST HOLY CRAP ITS SO GOOD book, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man

anyone read it?

yeah im stephen. i did a whole painting about it called, yes stephen, the roses can be green.
it was my favorite painting ever.

it got run over by a car.

Originally posted by samfashow
If it is true and we are having lives ontop of lives then where in the world, or should I say universe are we getting all these souls??

Perhaps our concept of soul is incorrect! What if there is only ONE soul? What if, since we are all divided through form, that we also apply that idea to the concept of all having individual souls? What if the action of our minds allow us to tap into a sort of universal conciousness or universal soul? Wouldn't we all believe that we have different souls because we are interpreting the phenominon through different minds?

Just food for thought.

Originally posted by oui
To begin... Buddhist do not believe in "reincarnation", buddhist believe in "rebirth". The difference being that reincarnation is the transmigration of a "soul" from one body to another... Buddhism however does not acknowledge the existance of a soul (Atman), and instead is an "Anatta" (no soul) doctrine.

Once again, this is open to "interpertation"

Rebirth.

Buddhists hold that the retributive process of karma can span more than one lifetime. Rebirth, or reincarnation, has always been an important tenet in Buddhism; and it is often referred to as walking the wheel of life (samsara). It is the process of being born over and over again in different times and different situations, possibly for many thousand times.

As long as there is delusion, greed, and aversion, and as long as passions are not extinguished, we generate karma. Because we eventually accumulate unmaterialized karma in this or in a past lifetime, there is a next lifetime in which the accumulated karma will take form. Only when all accumulated karma is realized and the generation of new karma is calmed, one can enter the stream that leads to Nirvana. This process continues until Nirvana is reached, which signifies the cessation of rebirth and, hence, suffering.

It is notable that this also entails the avoidance of "good karma". Once the stream that leads to Nirvana is entered, creating wholesome karma is not an object anymore. Although wholesome karma leads to entering the stream, it does not necessarily lead to Nirvana, only the extinguishment of all karmic forces will lead to Nirvana.

www.thebigview.com...

The body is mortal and when it dies, consciousness and all mental activities cease. That is why there is no soul. The idea of soul is simply an extension of the self. Soul is the immortal version of the self that supposedly survives physical death. Since we know that consciousness is a function of our nervous system, it seems difficult to believe that the conscious self survives death. Hence, Buddhists deny the reality of both self and soul.

The idea of an abiding self is deceptive, because it is derived from unenlightened reasoning. The word self simply provides a reference frame for the mind-body phenomena of sentient beings. We usually identify it with our body and the stream of consciousness induced by sense perceptions and thoughts. In reality, what we call self is neither abiding nor detached from the rest of the world and other beings. Buddhists call this the "neither self nor non-self".

What is reborn if not the "self"?

If the idea of non-self sounds odd, then it must sound even more curious that non-self can be reborn. There is a seeming contradiction between the canon of rebirth and that of the non-self, which even many dedicated Buddhists find difficult to understand. The contradiction is, however, only on the surface and can be solved if one pictures the self as the result of karmic formation. This can be put into less abstract words:

If we imagine the world as an ocean, we are like the ripples on the ocean. Formations like ripples and waves occur, because of wind, tides, and other kinetic forces. In the Buddhist analogy, the universe is in motion due to karmic forces. A ripple, a wave, or a billow may seem as an individual entity for a moment, creating the illusion that it has a self, but it is gone in the next moment. The truth is that all individuals are one. A ripple is a temporary phenomenon; it is just water in motion. We know that kinetic energy causes wave forms on a body of water and it would be ridiculous to say that a single ripple or wave has a self.

Similarly, in case of beings, the process of coming into life and being conditioned in a particular way is caused by karmic forces. The up and down of the ocean's waves corresponds with the rotation of the wheel of life. The sea that surges, falls, and resurges, is the life that is born, dies, and is reborn again. It is therefore obvious that we should not focus on the temporary phenomenon of the wave, but on the force that causes, forms, and drives it. Nothing else is said, although in more practical terms, in the Eightfold Path.



[Edited on 27-2-2004 by NetStorm]

John Nada...Yes.

oui-call it what you will, rebirth, etc., but it's still a similar idea...and the point stands...

So what you're saying is that we are all apparently far more willing to do crazy things when we're dead than when we're alive, right? Could you imagine (while being alive), somebody asking you to go to an unspecified job for an unspecified purpose and then being fired after the first week? I don't know how many takers you would get to such a bargain.

A valid arguement, but here's another... There are MANY examples of people stepping into alternate lifestyles, just to see how they live... The latest reality tv shows show this, and despite any other considerations, they also hope to learn more about others, and themselves, by doing so. When you are "between incarnations", you have the benefit of knowing just how little time each incarnation really is, so you have a different perspective of the time of a physical life. Thus, while it is 100 years to us, it is but a short vacation to our more aware self...

So yes, it's a challenge and an adventure...not a curse or job sentence.....though some days it feels like it....

Anyhow, that's my belief....it may be wrong, but I "feel" it is more true than some creation deity telling me what is right and wrong....

At least one day, we all find out the truth, for better or worse, so until that day, all we can do is guess....

Netstorm, I've just read your reply... very well written, and all of it is clear, and makes sense, but in the beggining you lost me...

"Once again, this is open to "interpertation"" is what you said...

forgive me for being ignorant but, what is open to interpretation?

_oui.

This is what I think:

If reincarnation is true then it would be according to the following:

a billion years ago I was nothing - now I am alive - a billion years later I am nothing again. This can repeat itself because the action which began can happen again because of the exact same situation.

I don't believe in a soul but in action-reaction (till eternity). So this leaves me with the idea that or everything is death or alive. Live would be then just actions and reactions, specific actions and reactions, which other matter doesn't have (capacity to store, make connections and such).

This leaves me with the idea that I am actually identical to the other matter around me. I would be alive but live would be just action-reaction. This would mean that when the actions and reactions which make me come to an end I stop to exist. Nor would I reincarnate, and that I try to explain with the following:

a fire burns along a specific part (let's say the fire is alive). A second fire burns along the same exact path with the same conditions and such, exactly identical. The second fire would just be a second fire and not me, just like a twin. This would mean there is no reincarnation because the fire stopped and that's it.



However now I am stuck because I don't know which path to take, the idea of nothing- alive- nothing (so reincarnation is there in some way or another) or the idea of action-reaction. The first one is phylosofical correct and the second scientifically.

Originally posted by oui
Netstorm, I've just read your reply... very well written, and all of it is clear, and makes sense, but in the beggining you lost me...

"Once again, this is open to "interpertation"" is what you said...

forgive me for being ignorant but, what is open to interpretation?

_oui.

The reason I said that is because there was a big who-ha on the threads once about the word "alien" being in some scriptures, and not in others.
I was simply stating the fact that you could read what I posted and come away with your own conclusion. (and as always when I type in a hurry I mis-spell words )


interpretation

\In*ter`pre*ta"tion\, n. [L. interpretatio: cf. F. interpr['e]tation.] 1. The act of interpreting; explanation of what is obscure; translation; version; construction; as, the interpretation of a foreign language, of a dream, or of an enigma.

Look how we can, or sad or merrily, Interpretation will misquote our looks. --Shak.

2. The sense given by an interpreter; exposition or explanation given; meaning; as, commentators give various interpretations of the same passage of Scripture.

the universe is replete with life
we live in the phenoumenal
god is in noumena
beyond vibration..beyond the beyond
the vibrationless realm

though names may change it face retains the mask it wore
words peter gabriel
group genesis
album foxtrot
song time table

A bit more about the earlier Christian belief in reincarnation and why it was condemned by the Church.

Pope Vigilius was a vicar during the reign of Emperor Justinian in the sixth century AD. Justinian and Vigilius disagreed on whether or not the doctrine of reincarnation should be condemned as heresy or allowed to be taught in the church.
Origin's writings were considered heresy by important cardinals in the sixth century. Origen's teachings had been considered as profound spiritual wisdom for three centuries. Origen lived around 250 AD and wrote about the pre-existence of the soul and in reincarnation. He taught that the soul�s very source was God and that the soul�s was traveling back to oneness with God via Reincarnation.

Emperor Justinian wanted Origen�s writings and teachings to be condemned and destroyed but Pope Vigilius refused to sign a papal decree condemning Origen's teachings on reincarnation. As a result of his disobedience, the Emperor had the Pope arrested and put into jail. In 543, Justinian convoked the Fifth General Council of the Church and told the Pope he would sign whatever into doctrine whatever the council decided. On the way there, under guard, the Pope escaped to avoid being forced to condemn Origen�s writings. The Emperor commanded the council to continue despite the Pope�s refusal to attend.

There was a logical reason why the Emperor was opposed to the concept that all of mankind originally came from God and was returing to God via the cucle of birth and death. Justinian had been convinced by high ranking cardinals that it was not in the interest of the empire to allow Origen;s writings to continue to be copied and distributed. A powerful group of Cardinal�s and Bishop�s explained that if every soul had once pre-existed with God, then Christ wasn�t anything special to have come from God. These Cardinals convinced the Emperor that if people realized they were the children of God theymight begin to believe they no longer needed an Emperor, or to pay taxes, or to obey the Holy Church. But since they reasoned that only Christ had come from God but Giod made brand new souls at the time of conception and only the Holy Church could bring these souls to God. Without the protection of the Empire or the gudance of the church, all people would be doomed to be forever cut off from God in Hell. This doctrine was very acceptabloe to the Emperor. Once Justinian understood the political danger inherent in Origen�s teachings, the rest was simply an Emperor doing what was in his best interest.

The council, as instructed by the Emperor, produced fourteen new anathemas and the very first one condemned reincarnation and the concept that souls pre-existed with God.

If anyone asserts the fabulous preexistence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema.
The Pope never signed the order, so technically it was never legal, but the Pope's signature was not needed.

reluctant-messenger.com...

reincarnation is your cellur memory. you tap into glimpses of you billion year old dna, its known as cellur memory consciousness, one of mr timothY learY's 5 models of consciousness