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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
well, i'm asking the creationists. the bible states that animals produce "after their own kind"
but the term "kind" is not defined and i've never, ever seen it defined.
"Genesis 1:11 Then God said, "LET THE LAND PRODUCE VEGETATION: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various "kinds." And it was so.
12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good."
Originally posted by Conspiriology
I find it difficult to believe you are having such a problem understanding this single word in the context it is given.
it seems that you believe in whatever science that supports your views and disbelieve any science that does not support your views.
I have heard astyatax say "the wonderful thing about the theory of evolution is that it keeps evolving"
Not sure what that means but I think a similar reasoning is used whenever Christians have to answer why the dooms day date was wrong.
I hope Science can accept the same excuses for errors in judgement and interpretation as we have to accept new changes to cover mistakes brought about by everything from fraudulent evidence to lack of observable data by Darwinists.
I have a funny feeling however, that the teflon will be covering that double standard too around 2012.
God is always the same and so is life itself.
Those who tend to use the Bibles age as a reason to discount it is an excuse for what is written in it applies to today as much as it did when it was being compiled when it comes to the human condition.
That is why we argue against Science that tries to prove it wrong
because as Christians, we know how God intended it to be
and anything we see contrary to the way the Bible says it and it being the word of God, then naturally we are looking in the wrong direction.
It is the same with Science too. Anything evolutionists see as evidence of a creator is bad evidence or it is given words to pre-face it like "The illusion" of a creator etc.
They know that anything that cannot stand up to the scrutiny of the scientific method is junk science however one of the components of that method are what has been seen and obeserved.
Like much of the intermediaries fossils that we are told will never be observed I can easily dismiss it then as just too bad. This leaves much to be imagined then doesn't it.
It leaves much of what has been imagined already to faith in it doesn't it.
If evolution were to be strictly held to the Scientific method it so gallantly supports and is used to fault creationist with, it would surely fail for under the strict rules of its own criteria, it must break one of its own rules of observable data to conform.
Herein lies the rub of Science and Religion but we get your answer to the word "Kind" as further reading in the scripture lays out in the form of an analogy or example.
This means you won't find any sperm in an apple and you won't find apple seed in the reproductive system of man.
You won't find Apple seed in an Orange and you won't find Human seed in a monkey. The proof the Bible was right as rain back then when all the idiots that wrote the 4000 year old data is that to this day, man has never had sex with his female counterpart where appleman was born. Or any other KIND of thing.
"Kinds" Madness, get it now?
By the way, if you want to know what is meant by the word "thing" you can add species to that too as what is meant by that and what is observable according to your scientific method and according to God.
See, Religion really DOES back up Science when we are drop dead honest about it.
It is pretty simple to understand if you WANT to understand it but if you want to NOT understand it
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
it's insanely vague, so it's quite hard to understand exactly what it means
incorrect. i just accept whatever science is provable. i used to hold tight that string theory was insubstantial and that something else was required that would make such a ridiculous notion obsolete...i was proven wrong
...but the christians say that it's with absolute certainty (odd that they can predict what will come unexpectedly...), while science is changing what it says based on new evidence.
the end times predictions all come from the exact same evidence.
....except that it won't. the 2012 predictions are void of evidence, they're completely based in supposition and imagination
evolutionary science, on the other hand, has mountains of evidence (which you tend to ignore)
really? have you seen the massive mood swing that occurs between the end of the OT and the beginning of the NT?
...science doesn't try to prove it wrong, just your interpretation.
science is entirely apathetic to what's in the bible.
...what does any of this have to do with what a "kind" is?
...so you know the exact interpretation god wanted?
it/s/he never really spelled that out
or maybe the bible is wrong...
or maybe you've got the interpretation horribly skewed..
...it's called an "illusion" because there's nothing to casually relate it to a creator.
does god make clouds look like horses?
if you're going to throw evolution out on this point, you'll have to throw out forensics.
the concept of "observed" means that there is evidence. it doesn't need to be seen directly.
...nope, not at all. i've actually explained why this point is false (repeatedly), even to you.....why is it still being used?
Originally posted by Conspiriology
I always loved string theory and whats so unusual about your statement is the fact they know so little about it. So very very little, I guess proving you wrong is a substantial advancement in that regard.
Oh like the 29 evidences thing you keep using as a link?
ha ha ha been there done that and all 29 refuted, crushed, smashed, obliterated, just google it madd,, you'll see
No correction, I don't ignore them, I simply do NOT believe them because it is NOT what God has said and I believe God.
I don't believe you.
THE PROBLEM WITH DEBATING CREATIONISTS: You CANNOT reason a person OUT of position that they did not REASON themselves into.
Wow mad, are you not making this up based on supposition and interpretation just like those 2012 peeps are? LOL I think you must be or is it only when it suits your arguments that this is done.
Well taken in part, nothing but taken in whole as my entire post and the context it is given, is how you should take it. Then again you wouldn't have a reason to to say it is off topic then would you.
He has to me.
That is a possibility,,but
I knda doubt it
Doesn't god have the power to do that if he wanted?
Oh darn,, I forgot, you have to BELIEVE in God before you can believe in the evidence for God. Which one of those two you are having a problem with has already been established.
Only with God it seems this is true while with evolution it seems we observe things a "new" way. Can you give me an example of something observed in this new way that wasn't fabricated of just plane made up?
Because your explanation is not sufficient madd,
with all due respect madd, why would I when I am not going to take the word of someone who doesn't understand simle words like "kind" .
You could have just as easily said the truth here rather than break down each and every single half sentence I said than give your usual dissertation and rebuttal as to why this or that is wrong but simply admit you just don't like God,
the concept of God
or anyone that does period.
The anyone that does part is my own experience with you as I have yet to see you NOT make a foe out of someone as soon as you find out they are a Christian. I have seen Ash make the same distinction about you. So it isn't just me.
Ill just agree to dis-agree and be quite comfortable with the fact that I know what Kinds means and you can go on actively NOT understanding it all you want with my blessing.
I mean, afterall YOU were the one asking for a defintion not me not webster nor thorndike or anyone else that has tried has made a damn bit of headway.
If I knew it was going to be this much excercise, I would have asked a specialist but I still don't think you'd get it because you simply DON'T want to and THAT is obvious.
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by jezebel5150
hmm
see, this is the kind of thing i was looking for. something that's actually addressing the question...
unfortunately, it doesn't refer to creatures that don't reproduce sexually...granted, they didn't really know about those things...
so i'm guessing the term "kind" (being entirely unscientific) should be excluded from any future "scientific" discussions by creationists.
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i'd just like to nail this coffin shut
i'm thinking of a living thing
what kind of living thing is it?
it's an animal
what kind of animal?
it's a vertebrate
what kind of vertebrate?
it's a mammal
what kind of mammal?
it's a primate
what kind of primate?
it's a great ape
what kind of great ape?
it's a gorrilla
what kind of gorrilla?
it's a western gorrilla
what kind of western gorilla?
an old silverback.
i'm thinking of a living thing
what kind of living thing is it?
it's an animal
what kind of animal?
it's a vertebrate
what kind of vertebrate? it's a mammal
what kind of primate? it's a great ape
Originally posted by amitheone
In my opinion, as long as you can "crossbreed", you can simply call it a "kind".
You can go to this site for more examples:
www.messybeast.com...
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Conspiriology
any word that is purely context based is not a scientific term.
you can't give me an exact definition of "kind"
therefore, it's a bunk term.
sorry that i'm skipping over my normal evisceration methods, but you will continue to persist in any delusions you have no matter what i say so long as they agree with what's in your religious text, so it's not worth the effort anymore.
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
my question: what is a "kind"?
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
any word that is purely context based is not a scientific term
Despite the overwhelming trend towards corpus-based approaches to the compilation of general dictionaries, specialist dictionaries of terms appear recalcitrant to change, in line with the position of experts like Landau (1974), who states that the meanings of scientific terms must generally be imposed on the basis of expert advice, not extracted from usage. This paper sets out to assess whether this view is justified. Specifically, the paper considers how current scientific dictionaries of terms deal with items showing subtle semantic variations in use. Entries for five such items (aliquot; crossing over vs. crossover; dose vs. dosage; elute; express) were analysed in five well-known dictionaries of terms in molecular biology, comparing the dictionary definitions with corpus-based assessments of usage. In general, the entries provide only patchy coverage of the corpus-attested spectrum of meanings.
The paper argues for an approach combining more comprehensive corpus-based description (to aid decoding) with more transparent expert-opinion-based prescription (to aid production). ijl.oxfordjournals.org...
you can't give me an exact definition of "kind"
therefore, it's a bunk term.