After their own "kind"

my question: what is a "kind"?

i've asked this repeatedly and nobody has ever given me a straight answer

i know it's not species, because people retreat to the "kind =/= species" argument when they're given irrefutable proof of speciation

so what is a "kind"?

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

Think it just means 'of the same' to whoever, whatever you are referring to, with knowledge of who you are referring to so without having to distinguish what/who it is you are talking about.

Just like a grouping reference not having to be too specific for e.g could be talking about a race of people, an organization, social group, gang member all of the same affiliation or background to whom your'e speaking about.

and the same but for example don't know but im from yorkshire and always say ''what kind is it''? meaning what type/sort, could be talking about many things

[edit on 22-4-2008 by Matteredminds]

well, i'm asking the creationists. the bible states that animals produce "after their own kind"
but the term "kind" is not defined and i've never, ever seen it defined.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul



Main Entry:
1kind Listen to the pronunciation of 1kind
Pronunciation:
\ˈkīnd\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English kinde, from Old English cynd; akin to Old English cynn kin
Date:
before 12th century

1 aarchaic : nature barchaic : family, lineage
2archaic : manner
3: fundamental nature or quality : essence
4 a: a group united by common traits or interests : category b: a specific or recognized variety c: a doubtful or barely admissible member of a category
5 a: goods or commodities as distinguished from money b: the equivalent of what has been offered or received

that's all i can see, number 3 seems interesting and not really defined in meaning also note Kinde, Cynd as older words tend to be where we get them from.
Also think that's where we gt Kin from, next of kin too.

[edit on 22-4-2008 by Matteredminds]

imagine all the dogs in the world. Got it?

Noah took 2 wolves. That's it.

reply to post by JPhish


...that's not a definition of "kind" that an example that demonstrates a single specific example which doesn't actually relate to natural selection but to artificial selection.

it does seem to be a definition posted above, and as well to natural selection,etc....once you have one of anything, it becomes a "kind" . Anything can be a kind and then you can see more of that "kind"...potentially?? Unless it is "one of a kind" , which still means you have one that can become a group of something..

reply to post by JPhish


How did he stop them eating everything, including him? Noah's wife did make it off the ark, right? It'd just take one "unclean" animal being eaten and that's that species removed forever.

Where'd he put the dinosaurs? Is a Tyrannosaurus Rex clean or unclean?

reply to post by dave420


There was no clean and unclean in the days of Noah. Clean and unclean came about when
God established the law.

To the question of what is a kind--a kind is basically one type of animal. For example, All the different types of horses are a kind, all the dogs, etc. Whereas in our scientific classification, there may be different species of dogs, horses, cats, and so on, God doesn't view it that way--so that's why it would seem that sometimes here in the modern day there are different kinds that are mating with each other. Hope that all makes sense.

Tom

reply to post by octotom


um...would zebras count as horses?

because dogs are all one species
yes, a wolf and a chihuahua are the same species, just different subspecies

but horses and zebras are different families...there's a massive, massive difference

this whole "kind" business seems to show a very unfortunate misunderstanding of taxonomy...

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by dave420

 

There was no clean and unclean in the days of Noah. Clean and unclean came about when
God established the law.

To the question of what is a kind--a kind is basically one type of animal. For example, All the different types of horses are a kind, all the dogs, etc. Whereas in our scientific classification, there may be different species of dogs, horses, cats, and so on, God doesn't view it that way--so that's why it would seem that sometimes here in the modern day there are different kinds that are mating with each other. Hope that all makes sense.

Tom

this is pretty much what i said, but more in depth. There is your answer.

reply to post by JPhish


only it's either a very evasive answer or one that's displaying an ignorance of taxonomy

i've already asked whether or not a zebra would count as a horse...nobody has answered that.

Originally posted by JPhish
imagine all the dogs in the world. Got it?

Noah took 2 wolves. That's it.

And 2 Thylacines

How many beetles did he take? And don't say 2 - because that'd be like saying he took 2 birds. And we know he took more than 2 birds

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
my question: what is a "kind"?

i've asked this repeatedly and nobody has ever given me a straight answer

i know it's not species, because people retreat to the "kind =/= species" argument when they're given irrefutable proof of speciation

so what is a "kind"?

Depends on whether you buy into the communist or national socialist interpretation of this term.

A communist would argue that people are divided into "kinds" in terms of classes. I.e that classes divide us more than race.

A national socialist (nazi), would say that race is the ultimate division line of "kind".

I take "kind" to mean species when applied to animals; subspecies in the case of domesticated animals and nationality when applied to humans.

If someone says that "people should stick to their own kind", he could mean their social class, their race or their nationality.

A zebra would be considered to be in the horse kind as you are able to cross a zebra and a horse and produce offspring. Remember that the classification system that we use isn't the same system that God uses.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD."
Isaiah 55:8

And a thylacine

And as for those beetles ..... can you mate a dung beetle with a ladybird?

reply to post by Essan


All i know is, with a few hundred years, you can bread a pack of wolves into almost all dogs known today. Maybe he brought two different kinds of dogs. The point is; Are taxonomy system is not God's taxonomy system.

im not going to presume to know how many birds. I will say this though. It's not nearly as many as you'd think. I would guess, less than 10.

Originally posted by JPhish
All i know is, with a few hundred years, you can bread a pack of wolves into almost all dogs known today. Maybe he brought two different kinds of dogs. The point is; Are taxonomy system is not God's taxonomy system.

im not going to presume to know how many birds. I will say this though. It's not nearly as many as you'd think. I would guess, less than 10.

reply to post by octotom


...so you're just giving me an excuse for why there's absolutely no sense to the definition of "kind"?

zebra is to horse as wolf is to fox.

and only 10 birds?

not mentioning the problems of genetic diversity...you'd actually need to speed up evolution to get what we have today...

what about fish?
i've always wondered that... all the fish would die when the salinity levels changed all around the world...so that means that noah must have had 2 of each fish "kind"

i'm really trying to wonder what a "kind" is because i hear it so often in regards to the noah story and how dogs changing isn't evolution...i just need to know

You are confused about species and kinds because in the Renaissance period scietists came up with a classification system of species, genuis, kind, family, etc. that is based on their observations of animals. So when you see kind in the Bible, it is not the same meaning of scientific classification. The scientists themselves argue about the exact breakdown of the classification system today, so how confused will the general public be? lol

Anyway, you can be sure a species will be able to mate with others of the same species even if it the species has changes within itself. For example, a wolf and a German Shepard can breed. Trying to breed a housecat with a dog wont work, even if they accepted your idea of trying that. An animal mates within its own species (scientific), which the Bible refers to as kind which predates the scientific terminology. There are a few exceptions to the rule where breeding isn't possible, but that does not negate what the Bible defines as 'kinds'.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

so what is a "kind"?

Well, as much as i would enjoy slapping a dictionary definition down and telling you to read more, i think you might be more interested in how people in this day and age make usage of the term 'kind'.

As always with dialect, terminology is something that has evolved over time, and in this instance this specific terminology has probably come about as a result of people getting the wrong idea.

Except of course, in this instance getting the wrong idea means that we have a rather substantual glitch in our social lexicon that has been never successfully been addressed in an environment where decisions are made and actions are carried out.

As you can see, getting the wrong idea is a dangerous thing, if you don't know whether or not you're getting the wrong idea.

But where did the idea come from, i hear you ask?

Simple - the modern masses have looked at the word 'Human-kind' and assumed* it means that all humans are one of a kind.

They fail to understand the depth of meaning, as the masses often do when faced with anything that requires historical insight.



*Hench why fools who assume they have good ideas aren't allowed to speak on critical points.



The line between a good idea and a bad idea is deadly precise.


[edit on 26-4-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]