This is being introduced in each state!

reply to post by Damocles

I think you hit one of the nails right on the head with the revolution statement. Kinda seem like we've come full circle and the time is near, and they sense it.

reply to post by chise61


The time has long since past. As I have said many time before, war is a detestable thing and should always be a last resort. But sometimes becomes a necessary evil.

Our rights have been trampled for far too long and our so called "Representatives" that are supposed to protect us have become the despots with the heavy boots on doing all the trampling.

As Americans we always bought into the rhetoric that the greatest threat to our freedoms and way of life was from the Communists or some other foreign threat. Wake up people, the greatest threat to your freedom is now, has been, and always will be from our own government.

Look at how they all "toe the party line" as long as this is the custom in Washington, State Capitals, and Town Halls Across America you can count on our legislature being good Democrats and Republican and not "GOOD AMERICANS." And with that in mind they will always back these BS laws because they have to in order to be "good Rep./Dem. and our interests are not at heart.

I know you have all heard this one before but it is so true. "Fear the Government that fears your Gun." Gun control has taken more life than it has saved. Germany's Nazi Regime implemented gun control at the cost of millions of lives. Stalin in Russia, Mao in China, Idi Amin in Uganda, Cambodia I could go on and on. Tally up the numbers of people killed by these Governments that implemented gun control and it will become clear.

We can not keep giving them the inches that they want hear and there because they have shown us that their ultimate goal IS the proverbial MILE.

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance"
Unknown

Ok, I have to RUN now there are two guys in black suits pounding on my front door!

[edit on 22-4-2008 by lazy1981]

reply to post by Master_Wii


Someone seriously needs to put the beat down on some politicians. This country is going to hell.

There is nothing to worry about.

It is just a bunch of posters making Super Tanker noise about a leaky rubber dingy idea that they were researching in California and found to be so full of holes that they couldn't get it to inflate much less float.

How manny digits would this serial number be? Ten digits- too few, Thirty digits might suffice, but to be certain I would want fifty digits. Now think how small the base of a bullet is and think how small the type would be. Now how do you stamp it on the bullet at production speed?

How would they be sure they got bullets #1-50 and only 1-50 in the box marked #1-50? You can't even prove bullets came from the same box by testing the alloy. Bullets get mixed togather between loading and boxing.

At worst it is the mice plotting to bell the cat.

reply to post by lazy1981
My sentiments exactly. That's why our forefathers included in the constitution the right of the people to bear arms. Yet we all seem to be content in just sitting idlely by while they take that right away from us, so that we cannot do what our forefathers outlined for us. We've already let them take way too much! If we allow this new legislation that they're aiming for to be passed what's the next step? Someone mentioned earlier that if we didn't like it we could always make our own ammo, but how long will it be before they make that illegal too? Aside from the fact that they want to do this solely to keep track of us and extract more of our money, this would also lead to the manufacturers raising prices to cover the "cost" of them having to code the ammo. Before you know it we wont be able to afford the ammo anyway, gee you think maybe this is part of the plan?

Well good luck with the men in black, hope they aren't too hard on you.

reply to post by RuneSpider


The operative word here is controll.Each move that is made to "controll" our guns and ammo. Is a strike at the heart of the second amendment.
An overwhelming number of gun crimes are with stolen wepons.How much of a strech would it be for them to steal and use your identified ammunition in a crime?
Who would be the first person that the LEO's would look at for the crime.How much would it cost you to defend your self ? How much time wasted by you and the cops? (who could be out catching real criminals)
I know now that law officers would never harass or arrest an innocent person.(sarcasim intended) Get real! It's just another way to rob us of our rights.
I live in Tennessee and have written all my representatives about this.I will post any responses.

Originally posted by Dulcimer
Scenario:

-Some criminal who does not obey any law, steals your registered bullets.
-Said criminal kills person using your stolen bullets.
-Police "solve" the crime because they traced the bullets back to you.

Yay!

As long as the law nabs somebody it looks like they are doing their job.

There is plenty of ways around this system.

Sad.

Scenario:

-Some criminal who does not obey any law, steals your car.
-Said criminal kills person using your stolen car.
-Police "solve" the crime because they traced the car back to you.

Yay!

Hot damn! You just helped me discover the perfect crime!

You see, the problem here is that in reality, this isn't the perfect crime and we can rely on alibis, witnesses, reported stolen property, time stamps, DNA evidence, and countless other things that you have failed to consider.

It looks as if some people here are merely fighting the serial numbers for the sake of it.

[edit on 23-4-2008 by logician magician]

Originally posted by Master_Wii
reply to post by RuneSpider

 

I see your logic, now let me ask you this.

What's to stop a person from removing the bullet & Powder, grinding off the serial number (casing and bullet) and then re-seating the round?

A person who truly wants to commit a premeditated crime can and will do these types of things to prevent detection.

Nothing, so why even ask? It is COMPLETELY OBVIOUS that it is possible, so your reasoning is not necessary.

The point being that under certain mental conditions (e.g. anger, drunkenness, revenge, etc...) one may not take the time to perform your byzantine operation. It's probably absurd to even entertain the idea that everyone will "remove the bullet & powder, grind off the serial number, and then re-seat the round" for every single one of their bullets, don't you think?

There are no perfect systems, and it is completely obvious that serial tracking is not perfect, but it does point that by the mere use of common sense that a serial number will help to identify a shooter or prevent a crime when someone realizes that, "Oh, damn. This thing has a serial number on it" and while he is taking the 20 minutes to do what you suggest, he realizes that it probably isnt a good idea to shoot someone.

jackinthebox nailed it, as usual..

This isn't about identifying who committed a crime, this is about tracking who's got how much of what.

The government will have a good idea of what kind of weapons you have and how much ammo you have making it easier to know who to watch, who to target in the event they try to disarm civilians and how much resistance they might meet.

This is just part of the beginning. I'm not one to connect the dots, as they usually aren't related, but it's hard not to start with some of these things popping up like this.

Originally posted by chise61
reply to post by lazy1981

 

My sentiments exactly. That's why our forefathers included in the constitution the right of the people to bear arms. Yet we all seem to be content in just sitting idlely by while they take that right away from us, so that we cannot do what our forefathers outlined for us. We've already let them take way too much! If we allow this new legislation that they're aiming for to be passed what's the next step?

What's the next step? Probably some type of RFID/DNA encoding on bullets, along with required DNA matching between the munition and weapon. You know, a positive identification.

Oh darn, they just keep trying to take away our rights to kill other people and get away with it. Life isn't a game, nor a movie. It is neither entertaining nor comedic to realize that intelligent criminals can easily get away with murder, and are backed by the likes of the attitudes of people in this thread who would act to leave obvious gaping holes to be exploited.

When will it stop? Probably when we realize as a whole that killing other people is not good. Until then, there really is no choice but to impose systems such as this on the general population.

It's called society. Get used to it.

Originally posted by Sovereign797
jackinthebox nailed it, as usual..

this is about tracking who's got how much of what.

The government will have a good idea of what kind of weapons you have and how much ammo you have making it easier to know who to watch, who to target in the event they try to disarm civilians and how much resistance they might meet.

And what is wrong with that? It's fair to suggest that someone who has a military grade armory in their basement has it for a reason, may be of a questionable mindset, may be illegally selling firearms to street gangs, or planning on taking over the city ala Harpers Ferry.

Sure, it's fun to entertain the notion that everyone should be allowed to have 500 submachine guns in their attic, but come on - it's not practical nor necessary. John Q Public doesn't need the firepower to help protect himself from his next neighborhood civil war. Its just not going to happen. If you truely believe that you need to be prepared for something like that, then you might as well live in a bunker-spaceship fortified in case of complete Earthwide obliteration.

When the next invasion from China happens, you may as well bet that the national guard will be handing out weapons to every able bodied American. Yes, it's that serious.

The truth here is not subject to differentiation. The tracking is for crime solving and crime prevention. It's not a secret, so why pretend that it is some evil plot when it is completely evident upon superficial analysis?

Originally posted by logician magician

What's the next step? Probably some type of RFID/DNA encoding on bullets, along with required DNA matching between the munition and weapon. You know, a positive identification.

That is exactly what is gonna happen. It will make bullets expensive and very easy to "control". The government will know exactly how many bullets you have (or assume you have even though you use some for training or sport shooting).

Think about it.

The government can tax you not just on the point of sale, but can assume you have a certain amount of bullets and tax you repeatedly for bullets for any cleverly made up reason. It would be your burden to prove that you either destroyed or spent the bullets.

The government can claim that the chemicals in stored ammo is toxic to the environment and levy taxes for that reason. "Global warming" bills are very easy to pass. The government will know who has the bullets, it will be on your burden to prove otherwise.

A shooter that happens to have thousands of rounds attacks a school and a law is passed to prevent people from having thousands of rounds of ammo. After a tragic and highly publicized shooting, this law would be easy to pass. Guess what, they know who has the bullets.

Pretty soon, if the trend continues, people will only be allowed to have 10 foot long guns that can only fire musket-balls, take 5 minutes to reload, have no accuracy, and have the stopping power of a spitball. On top of that, people will be only allowed to have one-round of ammunition at any given moment. The government will consider this the proper interpretation of the 2nd amendment.

The purpose of the 2nd amendment is to provide the final check and balance to government power.

If the citizens of this country are taxed and regulated out of the ability to own guns, the populace will have zero defense.

As someone said earlier, government is the biggest criminal. This is not only true for ours, but it is historically true for just about every government that ever existed. The founders knew that and passed the 2nd amendment for this reason.

I HIGHLY doubt this bill will see the light of day in all these southern states they are attempting to pass it in. Pulling this stunt down in fundamentalist country would be like trying to pass a law to censor the Bible. I do however agree that the powers that be are going after the ammo instead of the weapons. We have noticed a significant increase in the price of all ammunition. There is such a proliferation of weapons that there is no way to take them all, and if they tried, it would mean all out revolt in the "gun states".

Let them try, down here we know how to stockpile and reload rounds, as well as speak correctly unlike what you see in commiewood movies.

Originally posted by Realtruth

Originally posted by hybridx
OK well where to begin.....

No biggy to me, I am not doing anything wrong. If you arent doing anything wrong you shouldnt be worried either.

No biggy to you, but you must not have much experience under your belt. I was in law enforcement for many years. I have seen innocent people that had items stolen, only to go through a very painful process and costly legal process to maintain innocence.

First off people, they are not going to encode the round (lead) itself, but the casing or shell, brass which is ejected from the firearm. The lead fragments or mushrooms so identifying the numbers would be nill. Shotguns use shot small round balls, so the only thing there is the shell to encode.

How many of you would ever know that someone stole ammunition that is horded or tucked away?

Answer: You wouldn't until the ATF, FBI or local police came with a search warrant because they found you shell casings, then it's off to retain an attorney to maintain innocence starting cost $5000.00, just for the lawyer to take your case.

How about you are out shooting at the range or hunting and lose track of the shells?

Someone picks up your encoded shell reloads it and then your in a legal battle to maintain your innocence.

It's not about doing anything wrong, it's about what may happen to you if someone else does something wrong with your rounds.

Well well sorry to hear about those unfortunate people who have spent so much defending themselves.
As to my experience in law enforcement I never experienced anyone who had a legitimate report made about stolen firearms not get taken seriously.
In addition to that I do not recall any of them used to murder someone or rob someone. Not saying that does not happen but they were usually stolen (in my experience) to sell or sometimes trade for something and even sometimes to keep for themselves

The casing argument goes without saying and this bill can be shot down based on the fact that someones casings alone could be planted at the scene of a crime. This would lead to having to resolve these issues first before a real trial could begin. In other words, a waste of time if someones casings were stolen and planted. Or found on the range and that should lead to the demise of this bill.

But back to experience I find it disturbing that ANYONE who is hording ammo or even owns it would not know how to keep track of it. That is where it all goes back to responsibility. In my experience in the military and in law enforcement we had armories where weapons and ammo were kept and they had great ways of tracking ammo and weapons. If any civilian decides to take on the responsibility of hording weapons and ammo simple practices like stacking your ammo a certain way or actually checking it every once in a while against an inventory sheet would be the right thing to do, especially if you have a lot of it. Whatever you have to do to keep track of these weapons and ammo, it will be different for everyone. Even if you have to keep your receipts for the ammo, accountablity is the key here no matter how much or what you have. Report if anything is missing to protect yourself and others!
For people who only have one or two weapons same thing.
It sucks to hear people have had a hard time defending themselves of crap like this but here in TX I can not think or have been involved with anything like this.

[edit on 23-4-2008 by hybridx]

[edit on 23-4-2008 by hybridx]

reply to post by Master_Wii


what if the SN is engraved into a part of the shell that the hammer hit, perhaps the outer most edge that doesnt cave in when the hammer hits it..

Now lets assume you just filed down the firing cap where the SN was, you have to lower the integrity of that wall that needs a small impact to fire..

now lets assume you are loading your clip with that compermised shell, and you bump the firing cap agianst the back of the clip..

Boom, you can assume you are missing a finger or two after the firing cap ignoted the gun power..

Theres whats stopping people from doing that, a well place engraved SN can not be removed without compermising the integrity of the firing cap..





[edit on 23-4-2008 by mindping]

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by hybridx

 

You cant code something that is going to be shredded when it impacts.

Which only goes to show that this is really all about some ulterior motive. Keeping an inventory on civilian firepower, not criminal firepower mind you, law-abiding citizens.

No biggy to me, I am not doing anything wrong. If you arent doing anything wrong you shouldnt be worried either.

That is really weak.

Just because I'm not doing anything wrong, does not mean I am willing to give up my rights. And this certainly is a step toward that. Why do you think they would go to all this trouble otherwise?






[edit on 4/22/0808 by jackinthebox]

Why must you attack me by saying my thought on this are weak?
Weak is someone who has guns and ammo but cant take the reponsibility to keep up with them no matter how much they own.
But just because I put a statement up that I am not doing anything wrong does not mean that it was a blind statement that does not consider our rights being taken away. As far as this proposed legislation goes it does not seem to be leading in the direction of taking away anything. What is weak is when people who own weapons, illegally or legally, and do illegal things with them like murder someone in cold blood or sell them to anyone who has the cash. What this legislation seems to be doing is tracking WHO buys the ammo not to take away your rights but to keep the crazies from getting the ammo. We all know the weapons change hands easily so the next thing to do is prevent the sale of the ammo to the people who are going to buy it for ill reasons.
It sucks that this is a considered option but calling my statement weak was uncalled for and shortsighted. If I am not doing anything wrong not only will I be able to buy a weapon legally but I can buy ammo legally too.
The idea of the bill sucks but I agree with what another post said, "Its a necessary evil" because there are some buttholes out there that dont know how to act.
When they ACTUALLY start to ban the sale of ammo is when I will be concerned and mad!

reply to post by logician magician
You obviously did NOT understanding the meaning of my reply to Lazy. I did not in any way, shape, or form say that they were trying to take away our rights to kill other people and get away with it. I was referring to the goverment taking away our right as a people to bear arms. And our right as given to us by our founding fathers, to keep and bear arms as a means of defending ourselves against an out of control goverment, i won't finish the rest of that statement as i may be labeled a "terrorist" and find the suits banging on my door. I'm all for them finding a means of positive proof to catch murderers, rapists, etc. However this bill that they are trying to pass has nothing to do with catching a killer as coding ammo, won't do that. But it does have everything to do with trying to take away our right to bear arms. first comes the coding, then the prices soar to make it harder and harder to buy ammo, then comes the limitation on how much ammo you can buy. Hey what better form of gun control than to make it almost impossible to buy ammo, makes it way easier to control guns without actually having to worry about the guns themselves. I am not a criminal and have a right, given to me by the founding gathers of this country, to keep and bear arms and the ammo to go with it and i won't give up that right easily! And believe me i know very well that life isn't a game or a movie, it has been made very clear to me any time that i have sat on my front porch with my kids or grandkids and some bangers want to drive by playing bang bang shoot em up! I have the right to go in my house and get my legal gun and put a bullet in thier head before they put one in mine, god knows the police won't make it here in time. You're right it is not comedic to realize that an intelligent criminal can get away with murder, nor is it comedic to realize that a non intelligent criminal can just as easily get away with murder, but coding ammo is not going to stop that, nor is it a step towards it. all it is is another attempt at yet another infringement of the rights of law abiding citizens, of which i happen to be. As for the likes of the attitudes of people on this thread who would act to leave obvious gaping holes to be exploited. I can't answer for anybody other than myself, so here goes. I am not saying that there should be gaping holes, just that the politicians should stop passing laws that infringe upon my 2nd ammendment rights under the pretence of trying to stop, or solve crimes when that is obviously not the intent. When we realize as a whole that killing other people is not good? Sorry never gonna happen, there have always been people that think it is ok to kill others and there always will be, take a look at our goverment. I know what society is, been a member for 46 years now, and i might add a law abiding, productive one at that.

reply to post by logician magician
And as far as imposing systems such as this on the general population. What are we back in grammer school where the taecher says now class no one can go home today until whoever stole jimmy's pencil admits it? You can't take away the rights of many good law abiding citizens, because of the actions of the few [ and i use the term (few) loosely to make a point] criminals. when we do that we are no longer the free society that this country was set up to be, but in fact a police state. Maybe what you should be more focused on is our judicial sytems practise of early release and continued release of continued, multiple offenders. As stated before by myself and others this legislation is not about preventing, or solving crimes, as coded ammo will not do that. It is in fact about infringing on our rights by tracking everything we do and raising the costs of ammo to prevent us from purchasing it.

I just recieved an e-mail from my state senator.He said that this bill "is going nowhere" So Tennessee supposedly will not pass this assanine bill.

I have a friend that told me back in Dec. 2007 that the gov is changing the amount of ammo to be used and changing the caliber on certain types of ammo so that they will not be able to be use in standard handguns/rifles.

Can anyone please confirm this ??