God Does Not Exist

Originally posted by crestone
reply to post by Conspiracy Realist

 

:shk: Still not able to define the term as you see it. Hiding behind wiki entries is just weak IMHO.

Ummm it wasnt a wiki entry. It was www.dictionary.com..... try it sometime

I defined it perfectly, there must be a large gap between our understandings -


[edit on 28-4-2008 by Conspiracy Realist]

[edit on 28-4-2008 by Conspiracy Realist]

Originally posted by Conspiracy Realist
Well, as far as the topic of God goes, I've heard every argument and debated every topic, and each time I find a new hole in the concept of God, in any shape or fashion. I guess the only thing which will make me believe in God is to actually have [God] open up the sky and come shake my damn hand, but believers tell you that surely will never happen so Im going to forever be an atheist (hardcore).

Jesus Christ

Intolerance is ignorance matured.

Peace

Originally posted by Conspiracy Realist

Originally posted by crestone
reply to post by Conspiracy Realist

 

:shk: Still not able to define the term as you see it. Hiding behind wiki entries is just weak IMHO.

Ummm it wasnt a wiki entry. It was www.dictionary.com..... try it sometime

I defined it perfectly, there must be a large gap between our understandings -

[edit on 28-4-2008 by Conspiracy Realist]

[edit on 28-4-2008 by Conspiracy Realist]

Could you please point me to your post where I can read up on your definition of the term God?

reply to post by WraothAscendant


Thankyou for the personal insults, the english lesson and the verbal abuse! I didn't mean to hit so many nerves and cause you to BREAK the ATS T&Cs! I won't bother replying to you further, it would be pointless as you obviously don't read the posts properly (ours or yours)!

Thanks to "yeahright" for stepping in and putting a stop to the unnecessary friction.

"God does not exist" is the title of this thread....it is a statement I agree with and I'm sorry if any of you feel differently. You CANNOT prove the statement wrong because you cannot prove your god/gods exist except in "your own" universe, NOT "The" universe that we ALL (believers & non-believers) must share, and certainly not in "My" universe...sorry.

It is for believers to constantly prove the existance of their god/gods and not for everyone else to prove they do not! (I don't believe in MANY things, but I don't feel the need to disprove them).

You can believe anything you like in your world, it's yours, but in mine, it's reality.........see, feel, touch, reason, responsibility, logic etc, no fantasies, ignorance or delusion....and until a MIRACLE happens here that can prove his/her/their existance beyond any logical doubt to everyone....(which it won't).....

"GOD DOES NOT EXIST"

Seriously...should I believe in something I cannot touch, see, smell, hear, feel or taste. Or should I trust in ME and the real world I live in. Which one tells me without a doubt what is my reality, my truth.

And all the things that happen in my life....should I thank, or curse the "invisible", ask no questions, learn nothing, forsake my possible wisdom and just thank god for everything. No reasoning, no logic, no thought, no reality? Just because god or the bible or some preacher says so! I think not!

I respect the rights of anyone to believe anything, but they must respect my rights NOT TO, and to continue to............ DENY IGNORANCE ......

reply to post by nerbot


*smirks and bursts out laughing*
Well. I promised yearight I wouldn't address such as the top of this post anymore so eh. Think what you want. But it twas not to me that he was particularly talking to.

"God does not exist" is the title of this thread....it is a statement I agree with and I'm sorry if any of you feel differently. You CANNOT prove the statement wrong because you cannot prove your god/gods exist except in "your own" universe, NOT "The" universe that we ALL (believers & non-believers) must share, and certainly not in "My" universe...sorry.
It is for believers to constantly prove the existance of their god/gods and not for everyone else to prove they do not! (I don't believe in MANY things, but I don't feel the need to disprove them).

You can believe anything you like in your world, it's yours, but in mine, it's reality.........see, feel, touch, reason, responsibility, logic etc, no fantasies, ignorance or delusion....and until a MIRACLE happens here that can prove his/her/their existance beyond any logical doubt to everyone....(which it won't).....

"GOD DOES NOT EXIST"

Seriously...should I believe in something I cannot touch, see, smell, hear, feel or taste. Or should I trust in ME and the real world I live in. Which one tells me without a doubt what is my reality, my truth.

And all the things that happen in my life....should I thank, or curse the "invisible", ask no questions, learn nothing, forsake my possible wisdom and just thank god for everything. No reasoning, no logic, no thought, no reality? Just because god or the bible or some preacher says so! I think not!

I respect the rights of anyone to believe anything, but they must respect my rights NOT TO, and to continue to............ DENY IGNORANCE ......

Your assuming my beliefs again. I have not stated them.
And by all means believe what you want. I don't care if you believe the in the great tapioca putting of the 5th and a half dimension.
Just rather foolhardy to call your beliefs evolved when you have nothing in the way of proof for them as well.
And I challenge you to not find a person who doesn't believe their beliefs are somehow more evolved and better than everyone else.





[edit on 29-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]

Originally posted by nerbot
You CANNOT prove the statement wrong because you cannot prove your god/gods exist except in "your own" universe, NOT "The" universe that we ALL (believers & non-believers) must share, and certainly not in "My" universe...sorry.

Have you ever told someone about a dream you had?

Did you expect them to believe you?

Because you could not prove your dream, does that mean you did not have one?

God can find you, and if you are not listening, you will not hear.

You can search for God, and if you are not doing his will, you may not find him.

Knock and the door will open. Look and you will see a glimpse. Journey and the path will begin to unfold in front of you.

Or...You can do nothing.

Anyone can do nothing, and anyone can see nothing.

Some people wake up in the morning and see mud.

Others wake up and see stars.

Peace

Originally posted by HIFIGUY

Have you ever told someone about a dream you had?

Did you expect them to believe you?

Because you could not prove your dream, does that mean you did not have one?

The dreams I have are in MY mind and do not apply to anyone elses reality, I would only EVER expect them to believe or disbelieve my fiction/image/imagination. If I dreamt I was a twelve foot tall gorilla who speaks venusian I would not expect them to actually believe I really was!
I think you have actually made a good analogy there...would you like to try again?

Anyone can do nothing, and anyone can see nothing.

Some people wake up in the morning and see mud.

Others wake up and see stars.

It is impossible to see "nothing"...unless you are not "seeing"..kind of paradoxical that one...once again, I think you should re-think your analogies.

And if by "mud" you mean some kind of reference to "clarity", then that depends completely on the individual and their perception. Because I don't see what you see, doesn't mean I see "mud" but just something different, and as for stars.....we all have the ability to see stars, some of us are guided and some of us are blinded!

Would you like to expand on your comments or does your perception only go as far as "stars"?
What about the really BIG stuff like where do the stars come from, or where did the place the stars come from, come from, etc, etc, etc........

Seems to me "GOD CAME IN A BOX"......think bigger, think more, and then think MORE....WE have infinate imagination, something it seems a god does not!

Moderator. That was fabulous. Probably the most intelligent thing I've heard on all these unwinnable debates.

What happened to Way Aboves? I know you couldn't have gotten one anyway as a mod....



Edit to add: WOW! That was on page one. Didn't pay attention to how long this thread was. This is the post:

For those that found me obtuse, I'll elaborate. Bear in mind, for me this is nothing more than an exercise in logic, and I have no vested interest in proving anything for or against any deity.

..........

That was a great post from NGC2736.......thanks!

[edit on 7-5-2008 by Excitable_Boy]

Originally posted by nerbot
Seriously...should I believe in something I cannot touch, see, smell, hear, feel or taste.

I was going to respond to you, but the response got out of hand and I posted it as a whole new thread here:

www.belowtopsecret.com...

I would still like you to read it, since you brought it on.

The only thing I can say is GOd is alive and out there. And the only things I will point out is you cant disprove that God is alive and that Jesus is his son. or the there is life after death. You cant disproves

Originally posted by slymattb
The only thing I can say is GOd is alive and out there. And the only things I will point out is you cant disprove that God is alive and that Jesus is his son. or the there is life after death. You cant disproves

So therefore we can take the stance that God does not exist for it cannot be proved.

Peace

CR

Does it even matter whether God exists or not? Wouldn't a more important subject be on how we act and grow as people, whether he does or not?

Deism

Just seems to me to be a bit more valid and relevant to our lives.

reply to post by Conspiracy Realist


Sorry you have such a distorted view of what belief in God is all about.
The way you describe it, it makes no sense.
I do not think God created the universe knowing it would be defective.
God created something perfect.
He would have known that there was a potential for something to go wrong.
We were not there and we do not know what the circumstances were that caused the fall of man.
I think it is a bad idea to try to form a concept of what God is, by making up rules that he has to abide by, in order to be God.
God does not take on a certain role, in order to suite our notions.
We have no idea what it might mean, to know everything, so why do we automatically apply our deficient knowledge of that concept, onto God.
What is God, to you? A universal spy?
God went to the garden to talk with Adam, and Adam hid from him.
God had to assume that there was something wrong.
He had to ask Adam if he had eaten of the forbidden fruit.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Conspiracy Realist

 

Sorry you have such a distorted view of what belief in God is all about.
The way you describe it, it makes no sense.
I do not think God created the universe knowing it would be defective.
God created something perfect.
He would have known that there was a potential for something to go wrong.
We were not there and we do not know what the circumstances were that caused the fall of man.
I think it is a bad idea to try to form a concept of what God is, by making up rules that he has to abide by, in order to be God.
God does not take on a certain role, in order to suite our notions.
We have no idea what it might mean, to know everything, so why do we automatically apply our deficient knowledge of that concept, onto God.
What is God, to you? A universal spy?
God went to the garden to talk with Adam, and Adam hid from him.
God had to assume that there was something wrong.
He had to ask Adam if he had eaten of the forbidden fruit.

WOW thats total rubbish and ill explain why.

According to the Bible & Koran:

Your Almighty God knew in advance, before he even created Adam, that Adam would eat the fruit. God, knowing that Adam was going to eat the fruit, then told him not to.
You know this is like pushing a man off a high rise building and ordering them not to hit the ground. The outcome was already known. No instructions to the victim can change the outcome of something that is already known absolutely.

Adam couldn't possibly have decided not to eat the fruit because God already knew he would. If Adam did refuse to eat it then God would have been wrong.

Of course this argument fails if you insist that God didn't know what was going to happen.

Now lets look at the consequence of eating this fruit.

God Created this tree. He created it with fruit that had certain attributes. He could have created the fruit with any attributes he chose but he chose the fruit to have the magical property of causing death to humans or in other words - loss of immortality. He designed it in such a way that it would cause suffering to the whole of humanity if just one person ate it.

The problem is that GOD knew in advance, before he created the tree that Adam was indeed going to eat it. So, God is responsible for causing our suffering. He not only knew that it would happen, He designed it that way.

Peace

CR

reply to post by Conspiracy Realist


Thanks for going to the trouble to explain what your opinion is on this matter.
Sorry if your argument is not convincing, to me.
We do not know exactly what was involved in the garden.
We do not even know what it was, in the garden, that convinced Eve that it was OK to go ahead and eat of the tree.
It is translated as serpent, but that is a guess.
It is some sort of being and we assume that God created it.
Eve uses that as an argument to justify her actions.
If god created some sort of being that shows up and tells her something wrong, well it must be God's fault that she chose to believe it.
You are using her logic.
If Adam fell, because he bought into the deception, well, it must be God's fault because He put that possibility before him.
Why would God do such a thing?
You seem to know the answer.
The answer you must, unavoidably come to, if we understand God, correctly.
So, the solution, in your way of dealing with it, is to decide that there must not really be a God, because, why would we want to believe in something so hideous.
Believing in God is Hideous because He created a world that we have no choice but to have to suffer and die.
First off, I do not think the Bible tells us that.
You may think it does.
Maybe someone told you it does, and you believe it to be so.
We might find ourselves in a predicament like that, but it does not mean our ancient ancestors had it that way.
That is the whole reason for having this nice story, about the garden.
It is to show us that at one time, everything was perfect and we had a nice life and we had the freedom of choice to be good or bad.
It ruins the whole thing, if you inject the idea that it was nothing but a trap.
That God created such weak humans that, given any temptation, we would be helpless to fall for it.
I do not think God did that.
I think God created extremely intelligent and good charactered people to inhabit His creation.
But, the fact remains, that they did fall.
That is the point, to tell us how we came to be such retched creatures.
Of course, it has no value to you, if you turn it into a demonstration of the evilness of God.
We do not live where Adam and Eve lived.
We do not have the choices they had.
The choice they made was effective for all their descendents.
So, we can not choose to not be evil.
We are born into it.
But, we were born, and have a life, thanks to having our original parents, faulty as they are.
We live for the sake of them.
We are not here for some trial purpose.
That was their option, not ours.
But, they live on, through us, despite making the wrong choice.


[edit on 5-6-2008 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by nerbot
"GOD DOES NOT EXIST"

Seriously...should I believe in something I cannot touch, see, smell, hear, feel or taste. Or should I trust in ME and the real world I live in. Which one tells me without a doubt what is my reality, my truth.

Think of it like this, there are fish in that lake, but you cant see them if you dont go fishing.

Oh sure, someone will tell you there is a sighting, but will you believe? After all, you sat on the bank all day and didn't see a single one jump yourself.

The caveat to seeing the fish, in the case of the Lord, is that he has to allow you to see him too. Another catch 22. So if your not doing the will of his Word, not only will you not see any fish jumping, but you surely wont catch any either.

Peace

[edit on 7-6-2008 by HIFIGUY]

To the OP,
Can you prove that the moon is not made cheese? Have you been there? Are you able to bring someone ther and tell them "see the moon is made of cheese". So if your opinion is that the moon is made of cheese, yet you say that it is because you have a peace of cheese in your hand that has craters in it like the moon, then you are definantly not proving anything except that you have a piece of cheese.

God exists beyond what we can understand, so your "proof" on something is not proof at all, but an opinion, sense you (or I for that matter) cannot concieve God in His entirety, then how can we disprove Him? How do you disprove something you cannot even concieve I guess is the question. Before you start saying something about "not being able to concieve extra demensions, but being able to prove them with math", ever see the movie Hypercube? Ever see an illustration of a Hypercube? I have, I can see extra demensions in my mind, so before that arguement even starts, I thought I'd go ahead and debunk it.

One more thing, the Bible is not the word of God, it is not God's words being written down. It is an account of peoples experiences with God and what He said to them and commands He gave to the world to help us all out.

-Jimmy

Originally posted by jimmyjackblack
One more thing, the Bible is not the word of God, it is not God's words being written down. It is an account of peoples experiences with God and what He said to them and commands He gave to the world to help us all out.

You are right about experiences, but missing a key point in Jesus Christ.

The Word is the will and the voice of God. Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh and his teachings and accounts are indeed the Word of God.

The voice that is heard but not seen in the OT is that of the Word of God.

Here is an example.

Jeramiah

The word of the LORD came to me, saying,
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew [a] you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Then we see the Word in the form of a man.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

And the relationship between the Father, and his Word.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

The Bible is the Lord Gods revealing of himself to us. Our history and experiences of hearing the Word through prophets, and the emergence the Word made flesh who is the Authority in way and in his teachings of the Almighty God.

Peace



[edit on 7-6-2008 by HIFIGUY]

reply to post by HIFIGUY


Yep, you are exactly right, I forgot about Yeshua.

Yes, the Word (Logos, or what God used to create everything that exists) is of God, He is Yeshua, but one of the things I was trying to get at was that "The Bible" is not the word of God, however it is an account of "The Word (Yeshua)".

Originally posted by HIFIGUY

Think of it like this, there are fish in that lake, but you cant see them if you dont go fishing.

Oh sure, someone will tell you there is a sighting, but will you believe? After all, you sat on the bank all day and didn't see a single one jump yourself.

The caveat to seeing the fish, in the case of the Lord, is that he has to allow you to see him too. Another catch 22. So if your not doing the will of his Word, not only will you not see any fish jumping, but you surely wont catch any either.

Peace

[edit on 7-6-2008 by HIFIGUY]

HIFIGUY - Yes, I would probably believe there are fish in 'that lake' as I KNOW for a FACT that fish actually EXIST. I have PROOF they EXIST. I'm pretty sure there's not a single person here who would argue that fish did not EXIST.

Fair enough, I can't KNOW for definite whether fish EXIST in 'that lake' or not without seeing for myself but I'd use my brain to process the given information (people are fishing there, there's been sightings of fish, I know fish exist) to come to a conclusion that there are probably fish in 'that lake'.

In this sense, my fishing rod is my 'faith'. Agreed?

Now, by applying the same logic, would I go fishing in a shallow puddle of dirty, stagnant water within which the likelihood of fish existing is next to nothing?

NO..

How about if I arrived at this puddle and it was surrounded by lots of people fishing?

How about if they told me they hadn't actually seen any fish there, or heard anyone say there's fish there, but they believe there is because they can 'feel' the fishes presence?

What about if some age old work of fiction had told me there was fish there?

I'm afraid the answer would still be NO as my brain, after processing all the available information, would tell me that it is extremely unlikely that fish could exist in such a habitat. There would be NO PROOF that fish existed in this puddle, only the collective 'feeling' of a group of rather strange fishermen and a few lines of text in a dated book.

Now, apply this to God/religion/faith and, well, hey ho...

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[edit on 8-6-2008 by threedoom]

[edit on 8-6-2008 by threedoom]