Jicarilla Apache Nation Airport in Dulce NM

Hello all;
I’m new here and have enjoyed reading numerous threads and postings. I’ve decided to give it a try, so here goes.

I have heard and read about a so called secret base somewhere near Dulce New Mexico. However I have not been able verify the existence of this secret base, hence the name secret.
Cutting to the chase, I began using aerial imaging software primarily Google earth, it’s just a preference. I found a runway which seems to be in the middle of no mans land (about 10 nautical miles south southeast of Dulce).
KZ Jicarilla runway in New Mexico is 7500 FT in length and 65-75 FT wide. It’s big enough for the largest of military transport craft according to the aircraft restriction published from the DOD. The size or the runway itself is comparable to a regional and very close to a few of the international runways. The runway in question is labeled the Jicarilla Apache Nation Airport, to the right or east & southeast of the runway is the Jicarilla Apache Indian Reservation. It’s listed as a public airport on the last link, the info states the main gate is locked at all times and it appears provides the combination for the lock.

My questions;
Who would use this runway and for what?
(Considering its size, and technically being in the middle of an Indian reservation with mountainous terrain). www.lrc.ky.gov... "Section 3. An airport classified as a public use airport shall have a runway length of at least 2,500 feet and width of at least sixty (60) feet.)" KZ is more three times the recommended minimum length. Was this the choice of the Apache Indians?

Has anyone personally seen this runway? If so what type of planes have you witnessed if any?

United States main airports with length and width of runways and coordinates.
www.tageo.com...

Aircraft restriction from DOD
www.fas.org...

Info on KZ Jicarilla
www.airport-data.com...

KZ Jicarilla runway in New Mexico is 7500 FT in length and 65-75 FT wide. It’s big enough for the largest of military transport craft according to the aircraft restriction published from the DOD. The size or the runway itself is comparable to a regional and very close to a few of the international runways. The runway in question is labeled the Jicarilla Apache Nation Airport, to the right or east & southeast of the runway is the Jicarilla Apache Indian Reservation. It’s listed as a public airport on the last link, the info states the main gate is locked at all times and it appears provides the combination for the lock.

no, that small runway is not going to withstand a C-5 or C-17..no way, no how. It would sink right though.

Why would they have a runway? Well the same reason that most small towns have a runway. For private aviation, or medical flights, or the tribe could very well have its own aircraft too.

Why is the gate locked? Security. Same as other airports.

Runways have to be longer in that part of the country.

The Jicarilla Apache's are sitting on a huge oil and natural gas field with a lot of oil and gas extraction, storage and cracking plants to service and market their natural resource. Oil companies have planes as does the forest service [slurry droppers] and the tribal officials.

There is also a casino on Tribal land and perhaps some high rollers like to fly in. The tribe also sponsors big game hunts for wealthy clients that probably would fly in.

Your input is appreciated, however I do not have knowledge of the subsurface of the runway in question. It's width and length is capable of supporting a c-17 according to the Department of defense link I provided.

[edit on 22-4-2008 by RemoveTheWool]

Actually a C-17 CAN'T operate out of there. It requires a runway width of 90 feet to turn around on. According to the USAF website, it requires a minimum of 3500 feet length, and 90 feet of width. And that's with a runway at an altitude of no more than 6,000 feet, with a temp within a certain range, and a weight of no more than 440,000 lbs.

The design of the aircraft allows it to operate through small, austere airfields. The C-17 can take off and land on runways as short as 3,500 feet (1,064 meters) and only 90 feet wide (27.4 meters). Even on such narrow runways, the C-17 can turn around using a three-point star turn and its backing capability.

www.af.mil...

reply to post by whaaa


Thanks for the reply, makes sense except oil and natural gas is not transported by air. I did a search and natural gas has been a key factor of the Apache Nation since 1953. Here is the link if interested. Still the length and width of the runway seems unusual to me. Unless it is for the execs of the gas companies, although most private jets only need a minimum of 3000 feet for landing and take off. Once again thank you, I learned some facts of the Apache Nation I was unaware of.

news.moneycentral.msn.com...:EPD

reply to post by Zaphod58



You may be correct, however the DOD link states;
"Notes: 1. Runway criteria for AMC aircraft can be waived on a case-by-case basis, by the HQ AMC/DO."
We are only told the capabilities of said aircraft based on need to know basis, and we as private citizens really don't need to know, so they tell us what they think we need to know. Also one must coincider national security.
I personally think the runway location is unusual considering it's size.
Once again, thank you.

And having spent MANY years around these airplanes (all kinds of military planes) and having many friends who FLY these planes, I have a much better understanding of their capabilities than the average person. I know several C-17 pilots who would never dream of trying to put it into a runway less than 100 feet wide, without knowing MUCH more about the field. And even if they waive the runway criteria, unless they have a tug to get them back to the end of the runway, it's not going to do any good to take a C-17 into there. It simply CAN NOT turn itself around in less than 90 feet. You are risking getting stuck off the side of the runway and having to fly a team in to get it unstuck.

I will admit, you probably know more pilots than I do, also I do not know the detailed technical data of the specific aircraft except what I have read from outside sources one of which being the DOD. This still does not explain the reason for the size of this runway and its purpose or future purpose. Which is what I'm searching for.
I sincerely appreciate you input and making me think.

[edit on 22-4-2008 by RemoveTheWool]

The longer the runway, the bigger the plane you can get in. With let's say a 5000 foot long runway, you are limited to let's say a Boeing BBJ (based on the 737 airframe). With a 7500 foot long runway, you can get let's say a 757 or 767 into there. So where a shorter runway only attracts those smaller planes, the longer runway here brings in the larger planes such as the 767. So if you want to bring that guy from a company to make a deal, and he flies a bigger plane, he can land there and you work your deal. As opposed to the guy going to the shorter runway, who has to land somewhere else, and drive.

Keep in mind this is purely hypothetical, and the numbers for the size of the planes are thrown out there off the top of my head.

Just curious did you view the DOD link? Scroll down about half way.
The link shows military plane specific runway recommendations. Based on those specifications the runway would accept all military craft stated in the link although weight limits may be a factor, (taxiway width minimum states 75 feet for the large planes, an experienced pilot could land and take off from there). If that is indeed the case, this runway may have a secret or hidden public agenda due to its geographic location. White Sands is not too far away, could this runway be associated with emergency landings?

Thanks

They could land or take off yes. But for a C-17 sized aircraft to turn around on the runway they need a minimum of 90 feet. That's for a turn, backing using the thrust reversers, then turning again. 75 feet isn't enoughh room for them to pull off this maneuver. And looking at the satellite photo of the runway, there is NO WAY that a large military plane is landing there. If they had to land on 35, there's nowhere for them to turn around, unless they wanted to do a downwind landing, which can be extremely dangerous even for experienced pilots. Even landing on 17, and trying to turn around in that parking area would be extremely difficult for even a C-17 sized aircraft.

Originally posted by RemoveTheWool
reply to post by whaaa

 

Thanks for the reply, makes sense except oil and natural gas is not transported by air. I did a search and natural gas has been a key factor of the Apache Nation since 1953. Here is the link if interested. Still the length and width of the runway seems unusual to me. Unless it is for the execs of the gas companies, although most private jets only need a minimum of 3000 feet for landing and take off. Once again thank you, I learned some facts of the Apache Nation I was unaware of.

news.moneycentral.msn.com...:EPD

Well if you dont know about the subsurface, then you cant say that the runway in question could support jets of that size. Length and width is only part of it, doesnt matter how long or wide it is, if something heavy would break right though.

Most private jets require more than 3000 ft to operate safely. You are not going to find 3000 ft runways in the desert southwest and four corners area.
Taos is at least 7000, Angel Fire is over 8000 ft long. Santa Fe is about 8000 f long, I think Kirtland is 15000.

Read up on elevation and "density altitude". Tell us the elevation of that runway.

reply to post by firepilot



The “density altitude” could prevent certain aircraft from taking off based on load and the temperature & humidity condition. The KZ elevation is 7618 feet just to answer your question and I also found data stating the 15 highest airports one is 14422 feet. The site below also shows the longest and shortest runways, the shortest runways are from 100 feet to 400 feet, the longest is 39600 feet.
www.simtours.net...

And yes, I do not know the subsurface, do you? I have searched for the info, if it’s close to rock the runways surface is much stronger than published. The published single wheel ratio is 12500 pounds, although that is based on load for the concrete or asphalt with its base. Even if it will not carry the largest of planes, I feel the need to keep digging on this issue. I’ve just got a gut feeling something is not quite right, that’s why I joined ATS, for advice, info, and data to provide leads to further investigate.

Thanks




[edit on 23-4-2008 by RemoveTheWool]

reply to post by Zaphod58




Between you and firepilot I have learned allot about aviation, and thanks too each of you for making me think. Leaving out the largest of military transport craft, I still feel something is odd, just a gut feeling, must be the Auditor coming out of me.

"There is an airport on the reservation. The airport is used for emergency medical services and during forest fires. BIA Road J-8 goes to Dulce to the airport." www.fhwa.dot.gov...

Its also limited to aircraft of 12,500 lbs, if you look up the data on the runway on airnav.com

Here is why airports in the desert southwest are so long. Its because of elevation, terrain, and temperatures. A 3000 ft long runway at sea level, is usuable for a lot of general aviation planes, although not for most jets.

3000 ft at the elevations in the four corners area, would be practically unusable. Aircraft at those elevations need much more room to takeoff and land safely, because they are actually going faster, which means it is more kinetic energy, which as you know squares as the airspeed increases. So takes longer to get to takeoff speed, and takes longer to slow down.

And also, you dont plan on an airport based on a best case scenario where everything works, but considering a rejected/aborted takeoff, or even brake failure, so that there is room to stop.

Angel Fire has a runway at 8400 ft elevation, and the runway is about that long too. And thats the low spot in the valley. Dulce has terrain all around, but not as high as around Angel Fire.

Now if you want to talk about a spooky airstrip in NM, $cientology has a facilty and a private strip not too far from Las Vegas NM.


[edit on 24-4-2008 by firepilot]

The legends around Dulce are cool.


Google the "Dulce Papers" and you will find a lot of cool stuff.

reply to post by emsed1



Thanks, the whole situation or speculation in the area surrounding Dulce is interesting. Hopefully were not all chasing our tails.

[edit on 26-4-2008 by RemoveTheWool]

reply to post by RKWWWW


Thanks, that's the type of link (info) I'm searching for.