Omniscient God and free will?

reply to post by Conspiracy Realist


And knowing everything is being able to effect everything?
Damn. Then if I knew everything about how a computer runs I would be able to affect it however I want and the ability or the will to.
I need to hit the books.

Oh yea I provided a example while you were responding.
Heres the quote

Allow me to give you a little scenario, i could use the powers that humans possess (with my hand just in case you want to accuse me of believing I am a super psychic something) to roll a ball in a single direction. I could be pretty sure on where it is going. Doesn't mean I mapped out a path that the ball must roll. And since I did not make a path aka rut for it to roll it it could deviate from where I wanted it to go and was pretty sure it would go.

Please note that is with me knowing where it SHOULD go. Doesn't mean it will.

[edit on 22-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
reply to post by Conspiracy Realist

 

And knowing everything is being able to effect everything?
Damn. Then if I knew everything about how a computer runs I would be able to affect it however I want and the ability or the will to.
I need to hit the books.

Oh yea I provided a example while you were responding.
Heres the quote

Allow me to give you a little scenario, i could use the powers that humans possess (with my hand just in case you want to accuse me of believing I am a super psychic something) to roll a ball in a single direction. I could be pretty sure on where it is going. Doesn't mean I mapped out a path that the ball must roll. And since I did not make a path aka rut for it to roll it it could deviate from where I wanted it to go and was pretty sure it would go.

Please note that is with me knowing where it SHOULD go. Doesn't mean it will.

[edit on 22-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]

Then again your not the god of the bible your not what the bible claims that its god is - ALL KNOWING, ALL SEEING, ALL POWERFUL are you. LOL

As stated in my thread "GOD DOES NOT EXIST" the very attribute of omniscience is a contradiction to "faith". The entire concept of faith is rendered rhetorical when taking God's omniscience into account. You ask a Theist why does bad things happen to them, more often than not they will say because "God wants to test my faith in him". Well.....if that's the case, faith quickly becomes problematic. First of all, why would God need to "test" anything? In that context to "test" would mean to "find something out", "experiment", "produce a stimuli to see what will occur",(implying a lack of knowledge) well then...if God is omniscient and knows in advance what will occur there is NO NEED for GOD to TEST YOUR faith, because he knows ABSOLUTELY how strong the depth of your "faith" or "trust" is in him.

So, logically if God has to "test" your faith or anything for that matter, "God" is NOT omniscient; meaning he doesn't know the past, present, or future. He has a lack of knowledge; just like us. Yes. End of argument, that fact is something a Theist will often not want to come to terms with because they are conditioned to believe they're God is SUPREME over all and everything, so taking away some of his godly power or knowledge wouldn't sit well with them. Ya dig, lol?

Sorry if i dont reply i lost the humor... LOL

Peace

CR



[edit on 23-4-2008 by Conspiracy Realist]

If I chose to use the word "God", I would use it as a synonymous to "life", "everything", etc.
In that context, what is the application of the word "power"?
What moves things?
Well, from our science, we understand that, since the big bang, matter organized itself by the laws of physics. Thus, everything that happens concerning the formation of galaxies, suns, planets, mountains, seas and winds is the result of matter rearranging itself according to its own laws. We also know that all the energy set in motion by the big bang will eventually lead to a stable (i.e. dead) system. The realization that after that, all the matter will re-group itself, and produce another big bang and a brand new universe is where I could find some use for the definition of "God's power".
There is also the manifestation of the concept of "power" among sentient beings.
These two could be resumed as "the power of the matter" and "the power of the mind".
Following with my understanding that "God" is the same as "everything", then God's power is the power of matter to organize itself according to its own laws, combined with our own power of creation.

Another aspect usually attibuted to God is intelligence and cognition.
I don't know if the omniscient entity exists. But if it does, it certainly isn't exercising its power on our little things. It doesn't need to, because we (all the beings in the Universe, since it began until it ends) do everything.
In that sense, it's all-powerful because it created all the power and all the actions.
Besides, if there is an entity interfering on our "little things", it's not God, in the sense of the creator of the Universe. It may be a very powerful and knowledgeable being, human or otherwise, but to wich can not necessarily be ascribed the qualities we usually attribute to God (benevolent, etc.)

reply to post by Conspiracy Realist


Yes back out.
It's perfectly fine.
Omnipotent doesn't mean such an entity would have the will or even the ability to affect things. No matter how much you try to dodge it you can't change that simple fact.

Sure all powerful means it COULD do anything.
But once again.
Just because you yourself COULD do anything.
If you had any wisdom at all SHOULD you do anything?
It's simple.
Imagine you were an all powerful being that set the rules and limitations, why in the heck would you blatantly and repeatedly throw things into chaos by repeatedly breaking your own rules.

And to state once again to drive this little point home.
I could murder my daughter.
It is well within my power. Maybe not avoid the legal consequences.
But SHOULD I?
Of course not.

I know why you repeatedly omit that simple fact of life but can you admit that to yourself?

Oh and not all religions view deity such.........
More blanket generalizations.
Much like:
All black people are gangsta and like fried chicken.
All white people can't dance.
All muslims are terrorists.
etc etc etc etc
All false.
Just like your assertions.

[edit on 23-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]

Thank you all for your interesting, mind-opening posts.

I start to realize that everything we say about the "concept" of God is doomed. Our language/reality, confined to the 4 dimensions, is simply not adequate to deal with it. Yet, I have a desire to explore/know what is clearly beyond my (our) knowledge horizon. Maybe that desire is the core of religion (and science)?

reply to post by crestone


Exactamundo and I salute you on your search.
Just remember to always take yourself and others with a grain of salt.

reply to post by WraothAscendant


Sorry but you actually lost me.

Omnipotent doesn't mean such an entity would have the will or even the ability to affect things. No matter how much you try to dodge it you can't change that simple fact.

The bible which is in gods words, claims that God created EVERYTHING, it also claims that god is all knowing, all seeing and all POWERFUL. So now your saying that god may not have the will to affect things.... so thus saying the bible, koran and its god's are not ALL POWERFUL and that the book of all the answers is obviously full of fallacies.

Thats your opinion but the bible and koran says what it says - ALL POWERFUL meaning it can affect things. If it couldnt then it wouldnt be ALL POWERFUL.

LOL

YA DIG?

Peace

CR

You obviously dont get the point.

Peace

CR

Originally posted by crestone
Thank you all for your interesting, mind-opening posts.

I start to realize that everything we say about the "concept" of God is doomed. Our language/reality, confined to the 4 dimensions, is simply not adequate to deal with it. Yet, I have a desire to explore/know what is clearly beyond my (our) knowledge horizon. Maybe that desire is the core of religion (and science)?

As ive stated in my thread "GOD DOESNT EXIST", science is committed to understanding the world around us, and most, if not all of it’s phenomena through studying, testing, and observation. Science admits we don’t know everything about the world around us and is constantly searching for ’truth’,and not "the truth".

Religion on the other hand, BELIEVES IT HAS ALREADY FOUND THE TRUTH! Nothing else to understand or investigate. Religion believes it knows the truth already! And the truth is GOD. Period. God through Jesus Christ, Mohammad, Krishna, Santa Claus or whatever god in general. That’s the difference between religion and science, they are mutually exclusive.

Science uses methods of observations and experimentations to find things out, religions already knows. What created everything around us? We dont know. Ask a religionists....What caused everything around us? GOD! God caused everything around us, he created it, he’s the father! "You wanna show how that happened"? Read the bible, Quran etc! Hands down, end of discussion! Now can you see the arrogance and ignorance in the statements made? One is humble and admits there is a lack of knowledge and more to be found out, and the other parades around proclaiming to already know the truth and that all the knowledge you will EVER NEED is in 1 book. It doesn’t matter which religion you choose, they all proclaim the truth to be in 1 BOOK; the book that tells they’re religious story.

Peace

CR

reply to post by Conspiracy Realist

The bible which is in gods words, claims that God created EVERYTHING, it also claims that god is all knowing, all seeing and all POWERFUL. So now your saying that god may not have the will to affect things.... so thus saying the bible, koran and its god's are not ALL POWERFUL and that the book of all the answers is obviously full of fallacies.

Ah the bible and the koran.
That encompasses Christianity and Islam.
NOT all the religions.
Like I said. Your using blanket statements.
Otherwise known as Strawmen.

And I get the incorrect point you are attempting to make.
No matter how much you want to believe otherwise.

[edit on 23-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]

reply to post by Conspiracy Realist


Can you give a link to your thread "GOD DOESNT EXIST"?

Originally posted by Conspiracy Realist
That’s the difference between religion and science, they are mutually exclusive.
CR

Not sure I can follow. So a scientist can't be a believer in God?

reply to post by Conspiracy Realist


Never mind. I found your thread.