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Omniscient God and free will?

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posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 01:27 PM
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I'm trying to find the passage in Scripture that relates to free will. Can somebody help me?




posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by Kaploink

Originally posted by WatchNLearn
Free will is a myth. Anything you do in life and society is conditioned by rules and laws. If you wanted to drive 150 miles an hour through the city you probably wouldn't because of fear of being arrested. Thus, your so called free will has been impeded by pre-conditioning.

Think about it, how many things do you do , or not do but you would like to do or not do?


The same driver can choose to walk, bicycle, use mass transportation or even stay home. Which means free will still exists in that situation. While its true there is a limit placed on use of the car by society, there is no requirement that he has to drive it.


Freedom to make a choice does not constitute "free will".



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by crestone
I'm trying to find the passage in Scripture that relates to free will. Can somebody help me?


You won't find any in scripture, because the Bible doesn't talk about free will.



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 03:38 PM
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reply to post by crestone
 


Ermm....where is the 'conspiracy in religion' in this thread exactly? Shouldn't this be posted elsewhere?

J.



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 03:41 PM
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reply to post by jimbo999
 


So where is the part you contribute to the thread?
Or did you just want to add that obvious fact?



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 04:07 PM
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reply to post by Freenrgy2
 


free energy. The ability to make your own choices is free will. You are arguing the wrong points. Free will is not about religion.

[edit on 4/20/2008 by JPhish]



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 04:29 PM
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Originally posted by JPhish
reply to post by Freenrgy2
 


free energy. The ability to make your own choices is free will. You are arguing the wrong points. Free will is not about religion.

[edit on 4/20/2008 by JPhish]


Did you even read my OP?



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by crestone
I'm trying to find the passage in Scripture that relates to free will. Can somebody help me?


When you want a verse, come to Howie. LOL
When Jesus knew he was about to be delivered to be crucified. He prayed;
"never the less, not my will be done. by thy will be done." I think that is close enough.

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. KJV



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 06:27 PM
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Your argument is flawed. "To want" is an expression of intent. How can God possible "want" anything to happen in a certain way. She already knows the outcome ...
reply to post by crestone
 


You're confusing God's ability to predict the outcome, with Her making that out come to happen. God doesn't force the outcome. She can predict what is going to happen. That is why it is prophetic!



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 07:01 PM
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reply to post by crestone
 


If you believe every sentient being is part of God, it could solve every question that you have about God.
Especially since the answer might lies within yourself.



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 08:56 PM
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One further note on the Bible and free will. When Peter said he was
(willing) to follow Jesus to the cross. Jesus said, "before the cock crows
twice you shall deny me thrice." paraphrased.
Paul later explained this. Stating, " To will is present with me, but how
to preform that which is good, I find not. For I find these two waring in my
body. The willingness to do good and sin." also paraphrased.



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 02:25 PM
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reply to post by JPhish
 


Absolutely and unequivocally it does not.

Define "free will" and define "choice". They are not the same.

If you would like to know exactly where I stand on this, then click on the links I gave earlier. I am including the link to Part 1 of this and the first two paragraphs.

The Myth of Free-Will Exposed - Part A


There was a time when I too was hoodwinked into believing that man has a "free will." I believed free will to be man’s ability to make choices, change his mind, learn from experiences, etc. And since it is a fact that man can indeed do these things, it seemed evident to me that man has free will. But then I learned that these are not the definition of free will at all.

Free will does not actually and literally mean that one can make choices, create, change his mind, or reformulate ideas and data, etc., but that those choices and thought processes must themselves be free thoughts and free choices. "Free will" is only true if our choices are also free. But free from what? Why, free from being forced upon us against our will, or free from being caused by anyone or anything except our OWN will. And so, yes, man can think, process data, make choices, change his choices, etc. But none of these activities are free from internal or external CAUSES.




[edit on 21-4-2008 by Freenrgy2]



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 02:31 PM
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reply to post by crestone
 


Why yes, I read it. Here's what you wrote:


Omniscient God and free will?

Hi,

God is omniscient, but we were also given free will. How does that work? Is free will restricted to what God knows? Did God already hear Beethoven's 5th symphony before he composed it? I just can't wrap my brain around this. How does Christian teaching resolve this issue?

Thanks in advance for all your comments.



You did state that we were given free will. I'm commenting to you that there is no such thing. I can't rightly address your belief in "free will" if I do not believe in it.



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 08:12 PM
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reply to post by Howie47
 


Thanks for the verses!



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 01:32 AM
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Originally posted by crestone
God is omniscient, but we were also given free will. How does that work? Is free will restricted to what God knows? Did God already hear Beethoven's 5th symphony before he composed it? I just can't wrap my brain around this. How does Christian teaching resolve this issue?


Well, since God doesn't live in a world of time, the question of whether it heard the 5th symphony BEFORE it was composed doesn't apply. Beethoven created it, satisfying his urge and satisfying God in the process, since all and whatever we do serves for the purpose of God's satisfaction.
This is just my current opinion, but I think that the creation of the Universe was a bit of a roll of the dice. Wich means that the outcome was unknown, and the reason for its creation was precisely to see what would happen. I think that if there is a God in the sense of an universal omniscience, its purpose or goal or function is precisely to "see" what happens. In a playful sort of way.
On the other hand, the act of "rolling the dice" does still involve a certain predicability. You're going to end up with two dice laying in the table. So maybe God did know the outcome, but wanted to experience the variables. My point is: the Universe is God's life, expressed, because there was interest for it in creating it. God had to be interested. God is not neutral. God really wants all this to happen, and needs it to happen, in some way.
Regarding "free will". Regardless of laws or limitations, free wil is always present. Even if you can't do anything about a situation, you can always choose how to react to it. One can always find a way to view something as an opportunity, rather than as a tragedy or a drawback. That's why I say that free will is at the very core of our existance. After all, what use would we have to God if we couldn't make our own choices?



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 02:09 AM
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Is God omniscient? Yes!

Do we have the power right now to get up, do circles in our bathroom yelling "Wallpaper banana feet sky!"?

Just because we can, does not mean we have to do it. My belief is that God, right now, if he is asked "Where will SilentShadow be in 10 years from now?". He will have an answer that is based on my actions leading up until this point. God being present since the world began would be the greatest statistician EVER.

Yet there is nothing to stop me from quickly running to the kitchen and jamming a fork in the powerpoint right now. He wouldn't see that coming until i decided to do it prior to the event.

He doesn't need to use His omniscient power, and we wouldn't want to because of the gift of free will. If He knows my future as an omniscient God it means it has already been created the future and i have no choice in my destiny.

Without free will, there is no point to life.



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 10:57 PM
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reply to post by Freenrgy2
 


Sorry, I didn't mean to reply to you. I hit the wrong button.



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 11:08 PM
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reply to post by SilentShadow
 


How can "god" be omniscient and omnipotent and humans have free will at the same time. Its not logical.

God knows the past present and future, he planned it that way, its apart of "god's divine plan" as written in the bible. So how can we have free will for that matter if he already has destined our past present and future.

Im a born Atheist. God knew in advance that i would be an Atheist, in fact he planned it that way, as the bible claims god is omniscient, so what chance did i ever have to stay out of the fires of hell. hmmm....

Peace

CR



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 11:20 PM
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reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 



omniscient and omnipotent


Since when do those word mean "preplanned"?
I just realized that is the context in which you use the words.

Here are the definition since you seem not to know

omniscient


–adjective
1. having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.
–noun
2. an omniscient being.
3. the Omniscient, God.

Source: Omniscient @ dictionary.com

Note: I see nothing in here like that.

omnipotent


–adjective
1. almighty or infinite in power, as God.
2. having very great or unlimited authority or power.
–noun
3. an omnipotent being.
4. the Omnipotent, God.
[Origin: 1275–1325; ME < L om

Source: Omnipotent @ dictionary.com


Note: Hmmm nothing here as well.......

Allow me to give you a little scenario, i could use the powers that humans possess (with my hand just in case you want to accuse me of believing I am a super psychic something) to roll a ball in a single direction. I could be pretty sure on where it is going. Doesn't mean I mapped out a path that the ball must roll. And since I did not make a path aka rut for it to roll it it could deviate from where I wanted it to go and was pretty sure it would go.


Next bit of rhetoric?

[edit on 22-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 11:44 PM
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reply to post by WraothAscendant
 


In other words "having total knowledge; KNOWING EVERYTHING."

what does EVERYTHING constitute.... it would know the past present and future its apart of gods divine plan. Isnt that what it states within the bible that god is ALL-KNOWING and ALL-SEEING.

If science doesnt have an answer well guess what the bible does... LOL

Peace

CR

[edit on 22-4-2008 by Conspiracy Realist]



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