Omniscient God and free will?

reply to post by geek101


no one said that you always have a choice geek. The little girl didn't have a choice about being molested. But she does have a choice about pressing charges.

reply to post by JPhish


but isn't that the definition of free will? That you have a choice?
She didn't. Which makes the whole idea of free will laughable.
And as for pressing charges, what if she doesn't even get that chance?
Am not sure which side you're on here so forgive me if i have missed any sarcasm in your post....just that i have been reading up alot lately on child abuse, and i mean, global, organised child abuse, torture, things which i honestly wish i had never read......and even though i once classed myself as a muslim and believed all that free will stuff.....now, it just doesn't make sense to me at all.

Neither does karma for that matter.

I think your confusing "choice" or "will" with the ability to act on your will. I choose to go to the local deli for lunch, but it is unexpectedly closed. I still chose to eat there. I wasn't able to make it happen simply by "willing it" into being, but I made that choice.
The larger question then becomes, did I really choose to go there, or was a unstoppable string of events set into action which led me to that percieved "choice"?

Originally posted by _Del_
I think your confusing "choice" or "will" with the ability to act on your will. I choose to go to the local deli for lunch, but it is unexpectedly closed. I still chose to eat there. I wasn't able to make it happen simply by "willing it" into being, but I made that choice.
The larger question then becomes, did I really choose to go there, or was a unstoppable string of events set into action which led me to that percieved "choice"?

Ok, so she doesn't have the ability to act on her will. Which makes her free will invalid. Which in turn makes free will nothing but a concept made up by man to explain away the evil that goes on in this world.

I'm sorry, free will to me, doesn't mean the ability to act upon said will....it means FREE WILL....you have the freedom to choose what your will is.
And your example proves my point. There can't be free will because 99% of the time, there will be someone or something blocking you.

And if you beleive that an unstoppable string of events occur which makes things happen, then aren't we now on predestination.....which isn't free will at all, is it?

reply to post by geek101


You have only ever so slightly misread my posts.

I do believe that everything with a conscience possesses free will. I also believe that everything is predestined/predetermined as well.

Free will as i understand it means, simply, that you have control over your actions. Not the actions of others.

Children being molested, beaten, tortured and killed does not jeopardize the concept of free will. It calls into question the common belief amongst people of faith, that their "G*d" is benevolent.

With these things in mind, check out my first post with the "numbers" again.

If you disagree with me; that's alright. If it helps you resolve your uncertainties; you're welcome. But if you still do not understand me; feel free to ask me to rearticulate.

[edit on 4/20/2008 by JPhish]

Originally posted by JPhish


Free will as i understand it means, simply, that you have control over your actions. Not the actions of others.

I think we will have to agree to disagree here....i know, and i know because i am a muslim that the answer to "why is there evil in the world?" is invariably (from people of faith) that "we have free will"

It doesn't cut it for me anymore. There cannot be predestination AND free will. I've been through the whole....but God knows what we're going to do, but that doesn't mean it's set in stone....blah blah blah.

I have read things in the past two weeks that have had me pondering whether there actually IS a god. Forget about free will.....as someone who has ALWAYS had faith, i found myself wondering whether there actually WAS someone/something "up there" that made us.

Now, i think maybe there is, but it sure doesn't give a toss about us. It doesn't. And to think that evil happens because it's all part of some big plan, is the one thing, i beleive, that stops us from acting out more against the monsters that commit such atrocities.

You said that to you, free will means you have control over your actions. Not someone else's. Then what's the point of free will?
Honestly....what is the point?
Are you telling me that God is up there, thinking that everything's ok because that little girl could choose to cry, keep quiet, scream, or die? But as long as she had that choice, everything is good?

Are you telling me that YOU think that?

I ask you seriously, why do people of faith have such a high opinion of free will if that is really all there is to it?

reply to post by geek101


I'm not disagreeing with you/your faith that "evil" things happen because people have free will.

There can be predestination AND free will. I mathematically prove it to people i know all the time (in a simplified version) with my card demonstration. More vividly on these forums with my number choices demonstration.

I never said the world was fair. And i never said that free will is that great. I even said my self in my first post that i don't know why people make a big deal out of it.

I do not presume to know where "G*d" is, his intentions, or even if he exists. Life is not black and white, good and evil. There a many shades of gray. Maybe that little girl will be artistically inspired in lieu of her traumatic event and write a liberating book that will change the lives of women everywhere. OR maybe she just got raped.

Of course I think it's horrible. . . I'm saying that perhaps it is outside of our understanding.

I seriously have no idea why people of faith hold the concept of free will in such high esteem. It's almost laughable. But it's there.

[edit on 4/20/2008 by JPhish]

reply to post by JPhish


Hi, JPhish, and thanks! though CS Lewis put it much more eloquently than I could. He really was great with metaphor. As for my personal beliefs, that depends day to day, but I general oscillate between believing we're a part of some curious, enormous science experiment, being pleasantly watched and noted down without any intervention (rather Diest, I guess), to thinking there is a basic plan and we will end up there, despite the detours we end up taking. Like a road trip from Tacoma to San Fran--you could do it in twelve hours, or you could take the coast and stop for ice cream and to see the sea lions. But you end up there eventually. I really liked your number and card demonstration, it was quite clear and useful as a model.

I looked up Augustine's views on the matter, and he seemed to be in the predestination camp. But I believe he also introduced the thought that real love and worship of God can only be achieved by creatures with free will, the will to choose the greater over the lesser goods (ie: godliness over immediate pleasure). In fact, he goes on to postulate that the more and more one conforms to the will of God (the plan, I guess), the more and more one wants to choose the will of God, until not choosing it becomes inconceivable and repulsive and we are walking in lockstep with the Creator.

Edited to add an interesting link: www.newadvent.org...

[edit on 20-4-2008 by albright]

Do you stop pulling your dick because you fear "god" is watching?
Isn't it about time that people stop believing in this stupid fairy, there is NO god

reply to post by albright


Ur welcome, but seriously, thanku. ur post was refreshing . . . I’m only beginning to realize how great CS Lewis was as a visionary/writer.

We’re pretty much in the same boat in terms of how we view the nature of the world. Although I believe I might be slightly more spiritually consistent? As you say your beliefs slightly change day to day. My notions of the ways of the world, as a whole, rarely waver. I very rarely find myself on the fence; it hurts my groin. ;-)

I’m glad the demonstrations made sense to you. thanx

From that small excerpt, it would appear that Augustine and I see almost eye to eye on the subject of free will. But I think that other animals have “free will” or a “will of their own” but it is not the same as humans’. I admit that as I found myself doing “good” things; more and more they became second nature to me.

And for the atheists out there; regardless of the presence of a G*d, doing “good” acts is fulfilling. Trust me.

I would recommend "Surprised by Joy" or "The Four Loves" for Lewis reading material. One is autobiographical and the other philosophical.

Originally posted by crestone
The brain is part of your body, unless it's fallen out ... Unfortunately I can't follow your reasoning. Could you please clarify? The path from thought to muscle movement is neuro-chemical with a measurable delay. What does that have to do with free will?

If you read this story it is all explained in here at new scientist.
www.newscientist.... com/article/dn13658-brain-scanner-predicts-your-future-moves.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=news1_head


But even then again it is also true that the human subconscious can know the future (proven in a scientific study). So maybe it's just our subconscious reading the future and knowing what we are going to do before we actually do it, and therefore prepare the body in how it will react at that specified time. So who knows? Maybe there is free will.

"Free will" is a myth. Your will is never entirely "free" outside of anything that is, has or will be caused by God. That doesn't mean that you are pre-destined either. Nothing that we do, feel, say, think is entirely free but is the result of causes in our life.

Here is an excellent paper on the subject.

Myth of free will exposed - Part A

Myth of free will exposed - Part B

Myth of free will exposed - Part C

Myth of free will exposed - Part D

[edit on 20-4-2008 by Freenrgy2]

Wow, thanks for all your posts! Really cool! I will read up on some authors mentioned here.


So God already knew how Beethoven's 5th is going to sound, because She is an entity not bound by time?

Isn't that like a philosophical cop out, though. That's not really addressing the issue, but just changing the parameters by negating "time"?!

I also don't understand how every note in that symphony was predetermined ?

If God is truly the Prime Mover, then it stands to reason God exists outside of time. God did not "foresee" the 5th symphony being written, God "sees" the symphony being written. Everything, everytime is exposed before God. Continually, if you will.
Further, I would say God caused the 5th to be written.

Originally posted by _Del_
If God is truly the Prime Mover, then it stands to reason God exists outside of time. God did not "foresee" the 5th symphony being written, God "sees" the symphony being written. Everything, everytime is exposed before God. Continually, if you will.
Further, I would say God caused the 5th to be written.

Hi,

I don't understand? God sees the 5th being written in real time, but he doesn't know in advance how the full symphony is going to sound? That's not a definition of omniscience.

He sees all of it at the same time. He sees it being written and being played decades later all at the same time. He just IS. He doesn't move through time. He exists out side of time.

I think your only problem, is your insistent of defining "free will", as
total freedom! We all have some boundaries. The rich man, has more freedom to go where he wants. Then the poor man. But the poor man,
still has freedom to go where he wants, within the boundaries of his
abilities.
God knows what abilities He or She has given to every single entity, that He or She created. He also knows every single choice, every individual will make! Because He knows their make up. What drives them. What
inspires them. Where they are coming from and where they are going.
It is like we are trains on railroad tracks. With the power to throw the switches ahead, and change tracks. God already knows where will end up.
But we still have the freedom, that proves him right! If we choose to go
the direction God wants us to go; we will end up in the place he wants us to be. If we insist on going are own way. We end up with what we now have on the planet Earth. Hell and Chaos!

Originally posted by WatchNLearn
Free will is a myth. Anything you do in life and society is conditioned by rules and laws. If you wanted to drive 150 miles an hour through the city you probably wouldn't because of fear of being arrested. Thus, your so called free will has been impeded by pre-conditioning.

Think about it, how many things do you do , or not do but you would like to do or not do?

The same driver can choose to walk, bicycle, use mass transportation or even stay home. Which means free will still exists in that situation. While its true there is a limit placed on use of the car by society, there is no requirement that he has to drive it.

Originally posted by Howie47
God already knows where will end up.
But we still have the freedom, that proves him right! If we choose to go
the direction God wants us to go; we will end up in the place he wants us to be. If we insist on going are own way. We end up with what we now have on the planet Earth. Hell and Chaos!

Your argument is flawed. "To want" is an expression of intent. How can God possible "want" anything to happen in a certain way. She already knows the outcome ...