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Jehovah's Witnesses?

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posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 11:44 AM
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The JW's have no compelling desire for families to produce children, nor would they ever encourage someone to commit adultery.


I agree, I never heard of such a thing, I don't buy it.




posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 12:35 PM
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I got sick of reading the the JW bashing. I know there are a couple ex-JW's in here already that have chimed in. I'll add myself to the pile and make a few things perfectly clear:

1) If anyone forces their way into a home, they are NOT a JW. period. They may claim to be, but rest assured they either are lying, or they are very misguided.

2) The story about forcing a woman to sleep with another man is utter BS. It goes against their core values. They don't encourage people to be unfaithful to their mates if one of them doesn't decide to "convert". If this story is real then again, it was NOT a JW organization, even though they may have called themselves such. I'm sure ANY unfaithfulness is grounds for disfellowship. Even legal divorce is frowned upon unless there were things involved like abuse or cheating.

3) Children aren't forced to recite scripture. The theocratic ministry school is there to teach them how to speak in front of audiences and face to face. There is no "wrong" way to do it, so the comment about one kid getting beat for doing it wrong is CRAP. The mother may be overzealous, but that's not something that should be taken as a sample. I am a very shy person by nature. While giving talks, I have blanked out for about 30 seconds, lost my place several times, mispronounced names....I was horrible at it because I was so scared. At the end of the meeting I never got anything other than "Good job!", "Hey I really enjoyed your talk!"...They didn't care that i screwed up. Everyone understands that it can be a lot of pressure on some kids. It really isn't the big deal that this poster made it out to be. I can thank my experience with the tms for helping me at job interviews, meetings at work, etc..

I don't follow the religion anymore either. But I owe those people more than I can give them. When my parents were having financial trouble, the whole congregation came over to fix up our house. We knew nothing about it ahead of time. They showed up with truckloads of people, lumber, paint, gutters, etc one morning. They repainted the house, fixed the gutters, built a new cover for our well...

When my baby brother died, I was maybe 7 years old...I came home one day and the house was PACKED, wall to wall, with people. I literally had to squeeze my way between them. My mom took my upstairs and told me what happened. They were all there to comfort us. And they kept coming back. For several weeks they would drop off dinner for all of us and clean the house because they knew the last thing my mom wanted to do was take care of the house.

When I got my appendix out, they were there at the hospital to check on me. When i got home, they were there to check on me.

I defy you to find a group of people that will do that and expect absolutely nothing in return. Say what you will about their beliefs, but I can assure you that their sense of family between members is second to none.

There may be some out there that think they are JW's that are misguided, but rest assured that if something is considered immoral, pretty much by any standard, you can place a safe bet that any "normal" JW will hold that same thing to be immoral. Last time I checked it wasn't a f'ing sin to knock on people's doors.

[edit]

Oh and yeah, part of the fun of going to the Hall was the eye candy. Too bad I was never into it enough to consider myself worthy of their attention. =)

[edit on 21-4-2008 by an0maly33]



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 01:01 PM
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reply to post by onesockon
 

I am sorry, but you are incorrect. Jehovah's witnesses are a cult. Plain and simple. I am 23 years old and was a Jw until I was 18, and can tell you from personal experience they are completely two-faced. The thing is the actual regular members, like your father Im sure, are quite nice. But the people in control are twisted! Part of what defines a cult is that they isolate their members (Jehovah's Witnesses are taught they are no part of the "world"). They practice information control: JW's are counseled to only read what their Headquarters prints for them, they are advised to stay off of the internet, and they are told not to attend college.
I was not allowed to hang out with anyone who was not a JW when I was a kid, and taught that they were just going to die when God killed them in a few years any ways so why let " bad associations spoil useful habits."
Like I said, saying that JW are a cult is not really
an incorrect definition of the members; it is more of a correct term for the controlling bastards who play the flute while the "sheep" fall in line.



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 01:07 PM
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discouraged from going to college?! LOLOL

wow.

I'll just say one of my JW acquaintances, whom you could call "very devout", went to college and now works at Microsoft. =P

No one gave him or anyone else any guff for going to college. I'm getting the impression that some congregations go a little overboard. The one I was a part of was very down-to-earth, comparitively. The internet wasn't a big thing when I was in there, but they did discourage "crude" tv/movies/books etc. So it's not a stretch to imagine that now including the internet. I would think it's more cautionary advice than rule though.

"Don't use the internet! But please, check out our website:www.watchtower.org..."

Yeah, again I don't think you have the whole story.

[edit on 21-4-2008 by an0maly33]



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by blindtheory
Part of what defines a cult is that they isolate their members (Jehovah's Witnesses are taught they are no part of the "world").


This refers to their getting involved in politics, and adopting a materilaistic lifestyle. JW's go to movies, go to school, play sports, watch tv, take vacations, go out to eat,....
They avoid activities that would identify them with false religious practices or nationalism.


They practice information control: JW's are counseled to only read what their Headquarters prints for them, they are advised to stay off of the internet, and they are told not to attend college.


More disinformation I'm afraid. They can read whatever they want, They are cautioned though to be very selective in order to avoid material that is of a offensive to ones conscience or violates Bible priciples. Who can fault them for that?

You have to admit that it would be darn near impossible for a JW kid to graduate from hight school if they could only read what their organization printed. THats a no-brainer



I was not allowed to hang out with anyone who was not a JW when I was a kid, and taught that they were just going to die when God killed them in a few years any ways so why let " bad associations spoil useful habits."

Parents are the ones responsible for deciding who their kids associate with. Although I will agree that parents are encourged to base their decision on the scripture you partially quoted regarding "bad association.



[edit on 21-4-2008 by Sparky63]

[edit on 21-4-2008 by Sparky63]



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 01:38 PM
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Originally posted by blindtheory
They practice information control: JW's are counseled to only read what their Headquarters prints for them


I guess that thing they do of reading consecutive scriptures every week so that they read all of the bible in about a 2 year period is part of that "information control"?


they are advised to stay off of the internet


Can't answer that personally but I've seen Witnesses here so I've got to go with BS.


and they are told not to attend college.


Close. They are not encouraged to attend college. They can if they want to though.



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 01:50 PM
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reply to post by intrepid
 


I know many JW's that hold degrees, and then on top of those degrees is a fluency with one of the greatest collections of literature and ancient history.



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 02:04 PM
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Some of these posts are from people who were raised as JW's or who had parents who were JW's. Many assume that because their parents were restrictive in one area or another that it must be indicative of the organization as a whole.

Nothing could be further from the truth.
Some parents allow their kids to participate is school sports, while others do not.
Some parents allow their kids to play with the neighborhood kids....some do not. Some choose to go to college, some do not.
Some choose to watch PG-13 movies...some R...some only PG.
These are all personal decisions. Their literature does point out the advantages and disadvantages of some of these options.

No one is forced to do anything. Unless your a kid and its by your parents enforcing their wishes.....but then again, how many Catholic kids were forced to take Catechism classes as a child?

edited to correct spelling.



[edit on 21-4-2008 by Sparky63]

[edit on 21-4-2008 by Sparky63]



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 09:48 PM
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reply to post by an0maly33
 

I will agree with you that JW members for the most part are a great group of people, and the story you told about all of the support they showed your family does not surprise me at all. I suppose sometimes I am a little hard on JW's, but like I said before it is not the people that grate on me it is the organization as a whole. I guarantee you the only reason they helped you and your family out in a time of need was because you were tied to that congregation. They would never help anyone who is not "of their own", or worldly however you want to phrase it. It sounds like you are currently not a JW and I would be willing to bet on the fact that if the same type of situation were to occur now, those people would not be there for you. Anyone who is not a JW, or who is not at least "showing interest" is less than human to them. Again, not their fault they are lied to.
I guess my problem with JW's is my problem with society in general: patriotism, nationalism and in general a group thinking they are better than other people who are not in the group is just wrong. We will not make strides as a society until we learn that we are all connected! Isolationism is not the answer, and that is what they preach.
But I am not trying to change your mind, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 09:56 PM
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reply to post by intrepid
 

The only reason you see JW's on this internet site is because they are anonymous. Ask them if they discuss with any other JW's about being on this site and I am sure they would tell you no. Ask them if they would be comfortable with letting an "elder" sit in the room with them while they browsed their usual sites and I'm sure the answer again would be no.



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 10:04 PM
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reply to post by Sparky63
 

You are correct that no one is forced to do anything but the control mechanism they use is shunning. They are counseled to limit their association with non-JW's and then when they use their free will to make a decision that is not in accord with the general counsel they may be shunned by other members and therefore isolated from association with anybody. This is the mechanism that keeps the sheep coming back for more. Ingenious really.



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 10:09 PM
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I am amazed that one of the most benign, quiet, religious denominations on this planet, is subject to being bad-mouthed here on ATS.

Here it is in a nutshell....if you don't like 'em....don't join 'em....just ignore 'em.

Of all the subjects there are to discuss.....this is the lamest.



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 07:17 AM
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I've read this thread with quite a lot of interest. A lot of differing opions have been shared and i strongly disagree that it isn't a topic worth discussing on ATS.

I'd like to give some of my views. My aunt and her 6 children are J.W's, they are now in their 20's and 30's but i have grown up with them in the same town in England.

I can definitely relate to some of the stories about J.W's being very pushy at the door, this is something that in my home town was something that was commonly reported. I don't think they've ever gone as far as to force entry, but certainly i can remember my own mother having to get very assertive with them to leave.

The previous comments about smacking/spanking their children i can also confirm is true of my cousins. They were punished severly for any kind of bad or child like behaviour. Indeed my parents used to use the threat of sending me to my aunts house to stop me misbehaving.

This of course might not be something relation to religion, merely just their way of parenting.

Another comment that i have to agree with is the amount of child molesting / paedophilia that seems to be rife in the religion. But possibly no more than any other religion.

The reason why i believe that JW is a cult is as has been mentioned before the way they don't allow members/followers to talk to or socialise with non-followers. My youngest cousin was 20 last year. They found out that she had slept with someone which is one of their 'sins' as she was not married to this person. She was made an outcast of the religion 'discommunicated' for want of a better word for a certain time period. During this period no J.W was allowed to acknowledge her existance. This meant her own family had to ignore her for weeks if not months.

This type of brainwashing where a daughter is deliberately ignored by her own parents can only be seen as cult activity.

There were similar problems when a marriage fell apart. One of my older cousins found out that her husband had quit his job and created debts of £30,000 without her knowing. But she was not allowed to divorce him, apparently because he had not commited adultery, if she did then she too would be discommunicated.

I unfortunately am not aware of similar practices in other religions, although i'm sure they exist. It is just that i have had many discussions with my cousins about their religion and debates about why they believe certain events, like that man is only 6000 years old (if i remember correctly).

One thing that i found most disturbing is that their religious book that all of their teachings come from, is not allowed to be seen by anyone. Now i might have that completely wrong, but if i'm going to live my life by a set of rules in a book, i want to at least see what it says!

Some of the little guides that they are given that paraphrase and quote from the bible are ridiculous though. They twist words to make them fit their reasoning. I won't write an example as i can not remember any, but they were very far-fetched to an atheist reading them.

Overall, my experience of J.W'sare mixed, but that is of course because the human race is mixed. There will be good, honest, trustworthy J.W's as much as there will be evil child molestors.

I will continue to take each person as they come.



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by BritishGent
The previous comments about smacking/spanking their children i can also confirm is true of my cousins. They were punished severly for any kind of bad or child like behaviour. Indeed my parents used to use the threat of sending me to my aunts house to stop me misbehaving.

This of course might not be something relation to religion, merely just their way of parenting.

True. My dad went to the Church of Christ and he firmly beleived in "spare the rod, spoil the child". My Mom was a Catholic and she could swing a paddle wit the best of them. This is a cultural thing.



The reason why i believe that JW is a cult is as has been mentioned before the way they don't allow members/followers to talk to or socialise with non-followers. My youngest cousin was 20 last year. They found out that she had slept with someone which is one of their 'sins' as she was not married to this person. She was made an outcast of the religion 'discommunicated' for want of a better word for a certain time period. During this period no J.W was allowed to acknowledge her existance. This meant her own family had to ignore her for weeks if not months.


Their practice of shunning in based on the Scriptures at in 1 Corinthians 5:1-13. They are following the standard set by the first century Christians. It is not a pleasant experience for any who are involved, especially family members. That action is only taken if the guilty party is unrepentant.

The goal is to help the guilty party see the seriousness of the offence committed.

In this "anything goes" world it is not popular to follow such a seemingly strict procedure. I'll grant you that for someone who is not familiar with the Bible principles involved it may seem harsh. But if a religious group is going to claim to follow the Bible, they must follow all the Bibles instructions, even if they are not politically corrent in the eyes of this present permissive society.

Paul himself said: at 1Cor 5:11

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."


When someone who has been disfellowshipped recognizes the seriousness of the offence committed and is once again resolved to live by Bible standards, they are welcomed back to the congregation.
I hope this helps any who feel this action is harsh to appreciate that this is the standard set out in the Holy Scriptures. If JW's are to condemned, at least it is for doing what the Bible says.



There were similar problems when a marriage fell apart. One of my older cousins found out that her husband had quit his job and created debts of £30,000 without her knowing. But she was not allowed to divorce him, apparently because he had not commited adultery, if she did then she too would be discommunicated.


Regarding the situation mentioned above, Once again they are merely trying to follow the standards set out in the Bible, where Jesus states:


(Matthew 19:8-9) . . .. 9 I say to YOU that whoever divorces his wife, except on the ground of fornication, and marries another commits adultery.”




[edit on 22-4-2008 by Sparky63]



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 08:55 AM
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Where I used to work there were about a dozen JWs in my department. It was a piecework setup and they were as quick to stab you in the back as any other person. I saw nothing devout or religious about them. Only they smiled at you as they screwed you over. Hell, one guy would go for a nap in the nurse's office when there was bad work on the line, and came back when there was the gravy. Can you believe it? Right in the middle of work go and nap for a couple of hours while everyone else does the garbage work. The worst dodgers they were.



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by Relentless
What actually cinches it for me is that ANY religion who insists they are the only ones to be saved are NOT christians.


So I guess that would make Roman Catholics not Christian either then. I have been to one of their services where the priest told all the being a Roman Catholic was the only way to heaven.

So unless you feel the same about them do not use that as an argument.


I know a Jehovah's witness and he is an overly kind an helpful person. he most certainly would not fit into any type of cult. And when Jehovah's witness's knock at our door, they leave quite soon if you don't answer and happily accept it if you say you are not interested.

Oh and about not allowing members to talk to non-members; my friend is the only JW at my entire school, that is nothing to do with the religion as a whole as far as I can see, but as a family decided thing.


[edit on 22-4-2008 by umbr45]



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 10:26 AM
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Originally posted by blindtheory
The only reason you see JW's on this internet site is because they are anonymous. Ask them if they discuss with any other JW's about being on this site and I am sure they would tell you no. Ask them if they would be comfortable with letting an "elder" sit in the room with them while they browsed their usual sites and I'm sure the answer again would be no.


I pulled a "duh". One of the ladies I work with is a Witness. She's on the computer a lot at work, it's become quite the joke. Her husband, an elder btw, runs another department, I pretty sure he knows she uses the comp. Everyone else does. Non-issue.



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 11:03 AM
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reply to post by Sparky63
 


Sparky63, thanks very much for your reply. That's certainly given an insight to those points i raised.

Yes i do remember her saying that after a certain period of time, if she was repentent then she would be let back into the fellowship. But one question i have is, doesn't the bible say something about "let he without sin cast the first stone?".

So why is it that certain bible teachings are followed, but others ignored? Surely someone shouldn't be cast aside for 6 weeks before they are allowed to repent?

How would this affect a situation in the workplace? Would all J.W's have to ignore their fellow employee? Just intrigued.



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by BritishGent
How would this affect a situation in the workplace? Would all J.W's have to ignore their fellow employee? Just intrigued.


Nope, in fact the lady I refered to above and I get along quite well. Forgot to mention I was disfellowshiped. We just don't discuss religion. Same with my Grandmother. We talk but nothing about religion. That's the no-no.



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by BritishGent
reply to post by Sparky63
 


Sparky63, thanks very much for your reply. That's certainly given an insight to those points i raised.

Yes i do remember her saying that after a certain period of time, if she was repentent then she would be let back into the fellowship. But one question i have is, doesn't the bible say something about "let he without sin cast the first stone?".


Thats a good point. That account occurs at John 8:1-11. However you should be aware that these verses are spurious. These 12 verses have obviously been added to the original text of John’s Gospel.

They are not found in the Sinaitic Manuscript or the Vatican Manuscript No. 1209, though they do appear in the sixth-century Codex Bezae and later Greek manuscripts. They are omitted, however, by most of the early versions.
It is evident that they are not part of John’s Gospel. One group of Greek manuscripts places this passage at the end of John’s Gospel; another group puts it after Luke 21:38, supporting the conclusion that it is a spurious and uninspired text.



Surely someone shouldn't be cast aside for 6 weeks before they are allowed to repent?


It's not a matter of the person being allowed to repent. Repentace is not something you can allow someone else to do. Surely someone who was guilty of such a serious sin as fornication would need some time to do some soul searching, to determine why they allowed themselves to deviate from God s righteous standards and then take the necessary steps to straighten their life out.

A person in this situation would have to take time to consider whether they really wanted to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. They would have to ask themselves if they were prepared to follow a course of moral cleaness as proscribed by the Bible. Some may reach the conclusion that they do not agree with the restriction against immmorality. Thats their perogative.

This is a serious matter, not to be taken lightly.



How would this affect a situation in the workplace? Would all J.W's have to ignore their fellow employee? Just intrigued.


How an individual decides to handle that is a personal decision. No doubt that would depend on the type of work they are involved in.


[edit on 22-4-2008 by Sparky63]

[edit on 22-4-2008 by Sparky63]



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