America is the most powerful nation EVER!!!

reply to post by jkrog08


Aside from initial gains you made in lower Canada, in 1814 when the Treaty of Ghent was signed, the British had captured 40,000 square Km of American territory.

None of the War aims of the USA had been gained (namely the press ganging of US citizens into the Royal Navy and the help we gave to the NA) and you were more than happy to accept a peace Treaty and a return to the status quo.

As for you Navy, you ships only won single ship to ship encounters due to the 44 gun broadsides your Frigates could put out, compared to the much smaller British ships. The cream of the Royal Navy was busy elsewhere, namely in Europe.

In virtually all theaters of the War, bar the indecisive engagements around Lake Ontario and the Atlantic coast, the USA was soundly defeated and pushed back. Your capitol was captured and after eating the Presidents dinner, the British burned down the White House!!

What you also fail to mention is the huge debt America built up in its War of aggression, which very nearly bankrupted the USA for no gain whatsoever.

So, I will say it again: The USA did NOT win the War of 1812. Far from it, in fact, which is what you claimed.

reply to post by stumason


Yea we did win...if we didnt your Brits wouldnt have left our country.The war was turning for the worse for Britian at the time of the treaty I'll quote your dukes statement.

The Duke of Wellington was approached about leading the British army in North America and sent the following letter:

I confess that I think you have no right, from the state of war, to demand any concession of territory from America... You have not been able to carry it into the enemy's territory, notwithstanding your military success and now undoubted military superiority, and have not even cleared your own territory on the point of attack. you can not on any principle of equality in negotiation claim a cessation of territory except in exchange for other advantages which you have in your power... Then if this reasoning be true, why stipulate for the uti possidetis? You can get no territory: indeed, the state of your military operations, however creditable, does not entitle you to demand any.[50]

Heres a nice pic for you:


Heres some more info for you:

Major General Sir Isaac Brock skillfully repulsed an American invasion of Upper Canada, but his death was a severe loss for the British cause.

reply to post by jetxnet


You use your knowledge and combine it with common sense, unlike most

Originally posted by jkrog08
Yea we did win...if we didnt your Brits wouldnt have left our country.The war was turning for the worse for Britian at the time of the treaty I'll quote your dukes statement.

May I remind you it was a US invasion that started the War, which was completely repulsed at the end.

Can you read?

I confess that I think you have no right, from the state of war, to demand any concession of territory from America... You have not been able to carry it into the enemy's territory, notwithstanding your military success and now undoubted military superiority,

At the signing of the Treaty of Ghent, Britain had captured 40,000 Km2 off the USA, had sacked and burned Washington and repelled the US invasion of Canada. They also successfully blockaded Trade into the USA along the Atlantic coast, causing economic turmoil in America.

What Wellington is talking about above is the UK's initial demands for Territorial concessions at the Treaty of Ghent that the UK originally had demanded off the US in exchange for peace. This was dropped in favour of concentrating on the War in Europe and returning to the status quo, rather than pursuing a protracted war which would have cost the UK a lot of money

May I remind you that this was a war of US aggression that failed in all it's War aims and almost bankrupted the USA. If you won, what exactly did you win?

The best way of looking at the War from a US perspective is a draw (and that is generous seeing as the US gained nothing and failed in it's aims), but from a British perspective, it was a victory as it repulsed the US invasion and cemented the British presence in Canada. We lost nothing, whereas the US failed in everything.

As for the Battle of New Orleans, which you so wishfully cling on to as a sign of a US victory, it took place after the Treaty was signed, yet the US attacked anyway. After the Battle there, the British went on to to win the Battle of Mobile, but when word reached the front of the peace, we packed up and went home.

Again, exactly how is the War of 1812 a US victory?

Who started the War?

What were you War aims?

Were they achieved?

What was the status of the USA at the end of the war?

The answer to each of these questions points emphatically to an American failure in prosecuting a War against the UK.

[edit on 20/4/08 by stumason]

I thought September 11th had taught us all, but especially Americans, a little bit of humility.

Because for all the USA's military might, a gang armed with nothing more technologically advanced than boxcutters brought us to where we are today. The USA was as powerful then as it is now. And it's every bit as vulnerable to terror attacks now as it was then. Thanks to Bush and Blair the numbers willing to kill us all on their way to martyrdom has swelled enormously.

It won't take much to create the next outrage. It never does. A hijacked diesel oil tanker could poison your city water supply for days. Set up a fake laboratory, buy in some old x-ray machines and fashion the radioactive sources into a dirty bomb. Heck, buying a couple of old cars and setting them on fire at major intersections would completely screw over most cities for next to no expense or loss of life whatever. It's as easy as pie for those so inclined. The USAF & USN won't save your sorry asses against those little scenarios. The miracle is it hasn't happened ... yet. Perhaps the next outrage will be more ambitious still ... I don't imagine Bin Laden's men having been sitting playing Scrabble for the last 7 years.

These terrorists don't need conventional armies or navies to wage war. They don't need them. they play a different game. For all you might feel enchanted or comforted about seeing great warships off your coast or the latest aircraft in the skies they're affording you little if any protection against the terrorist. No-one anticipates a major war between superpowers because there's too much to lose. So boasting about how powerful your armed forces are is just plain hollow.

And to those outside the US, who've been following the Mickey Mouse economics of USA Ltd, boasting about these wonderweapons and this military machine you've created seems just daft. Because you've borrowed the money to build it all (mainly from the very same foreigners you so regularly chastise). And that debt will still be getting re-paid by your Grandchildren as you yourself as taxpayers are still paying for warships and aircraft built during the very heights of the Cold War and long since scrapped or cut up.

It's madness, all this "most powerful" nonsense. It's little more than the ATS version of Top Trumps. And i stopped playing that dumbass card game over thirty years ago.

JKrog , you are a TROLL, you come here with an argument that you know will cause trouble and incite racial hatred and personal attacks. You have no intention to enage any member in logical debate and flatly deny to acknowledge any fact or truth accept you own perveted ones, Therefore if it looks, smells and sounds like a TROLL, ITS A TROLL.

Where are the mods when you need them?

*cough* What? *cough*

It took you 20 days to oust Saddam, and Iran is by all means a far more powerful adversary.

So i'll ask you the same question, do you even know what you're talking about?

[edit on 18-4-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]

We didn't hit them with anything NEAR close to what we have. D. Rumsfeld saw what we did in the 1st Gulf War and basically said "If it was that easy with that much force, why not use less?"

We took the lessons learned and applied them along with more advanced military, but not with brute force.

As for the "win in a few hours"... it wouldn't take much time to cripple Iranian infrastructure. A few hours is a bit of an exaggeration, but not much.

Military victory isn't defined as "ground occupation". Which some people tend to forget.

Originally posted by Air_Superioritymuch.

Military victory isn't defined as "ground occupation". Which some people tend to forget.

So what is military victory? Destroying the infrastructure of a country so the American taxpayers can pay to rebuild said country. Seems like that's pretty much what happens.

See anything wrong with this picture?

Oh, I guess it's worth it so the gamer kidiots can swagger around and brag how tough they are by association. While young men and women
die for hollow ideals, to feed the blood lust of the corporate beast.

[edit on 20-4-2008 by whaaa]

Originally posted by Air_Superiority
Military victory isn't defined as "ground occupation". Which some people tend to forget.

Indeed. Military victory is defined by achieving the aims set out at the beginning of the conflict.

Have those aims been achieved?

Originally posted by masterp

Originally posted by jkrog08
This page seems to think that the U.S. will lose a war with Iran.
Iran most powerful nation

Well all I have to say is THERE IS NO WAY THAT THE U.S. WOULD LOSE A WAR WITH IRAN.

Further more some claim we are "tyrannical"-----------NO.We are utilizing our international police power to uphold civility in the world.

Finally....we would DESTROY IRAN in HOURS if we wanted to-----------WITHOUT TACTICAL NUKES.

You lost the Vietnam war, didn't you? and the Vietnamese were nothing more than villagers armed with primitive weapons...

Yeah, because the average Vietnamese villager has tanks and MiG-21s.

The Russkies backed them at the height of their power. Read a book.


There is absolutely no question America has the strongest military in the world. People constantly say "Well if you couldnt occupy Iraq....." but to them I ask...

How many countries would even make it to our borders? 0.

Originally posted by whaaa

Originally posted by Air_Superioritymuch.

Military victory isn't defined as "ground occupation". Which some people tend to forget.

So what is military victory? Destroying the infrastructure of a country so the American taxpayers can pay to rebuild said country. Seems like that's pretty much what happens.


[edit on 20-4-2008 by whaaa]

We've pretty much already had a "military" victory. We run that country. Now it's all political and reconstruction. Now we have soldiers and marines on the ground "policing" the area, and that's not what they were meant to do. That's the strain.

reply to post by Air_Superiority


What aims, set out both prior too and since the invasion, have been met?

Aside from the disposal of Saddam, I think the invasion has fundamentally failed on it's stated objectives, ie; removing WMD (didn't exist), installing Democracy (far from it at the moment), stabilising the region (HAHAHA, no fudging way has this happened!) and reducing terrorism (terrorist acts have increased since 2003).

Not one objective has been met.

A military victory doesn't just stop when you've steam rolled over the enemy, if you haven't actually done what it was that caused you to steam roller them in the first place.

There is significant resistance from the populace against the presence there, the region is spiraling into more conflict and the risk of terrorism has actually increased. None of the War aims have been achieved, so by any definition, the campaign has failed.

[edit on 20/4/08 by stumason]

reply to post by stumason


You are right,myself and everyone else is wrong.



I dont know what the US is thinking,we should be thankful that Britain doesnt come invade us with Iran right now.Infact the US has never won any war.Our military is the worst and weakest,infact I should be hung for insulting he rest of the world---------------------YEA RIGHT.

Its obvious you and everyone else who agrees will never change your mind-----------until maybe the US STEAMROLLS YOUR ASS.

If you think your so bad over in Britain or Iran,China,Russia...........come on then..petition your leaders to declare war on us.WHAT A JOKE.

reply to post by magicmushroom


The mods wont help you.,do you need a "WAAAAAAAAA-Ambulance"?


Sorry just cause you disagree the mods wont come rushing to your rescue.

Thats not what they are here for.

Originally posted by Solarskye
America is the most powerful nation on earth. I say that because I was born and raised here in America.

I was born here, too. And as I see it, we like to tell ourselves, like some show-off flexing his muscles on the playground, that we are the "most powerful." But there are others who are right at our heals, and we surely wouldn't be the most powerful if several of those joined forces against our flexing and beating up of other playground kids.

And I can say that for a nation only being 200 years young while others have been around for thousands of years, we have what no other nation has and that's freedom. ( believe it or not )

If we still had a Constitution and Bill or Rights, I would agree with you. But I can no longer go across borders without passport and expect to get back in, even with a suitcase of other ID. I can no longer be secure in my person, house, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures. All someone has to do is accuse me (accusation NOT equaling probable cause) of being involved with "illegal" drugs and they can come, arrest me, and take all I own.

And the freedoms are slipping away faster and faster since 9/11.

Ellis Island with it's mass immigration to the new world was a key factor to this nation being the best. America is not a nation of just a few cultures and races. This country has the world living on it. A world of immigrants who left their countries and risked their lives, some even lost their lives to have freedom. They have the respect for individualism and free competition.

Here you bring up people who came here, mostly, a century ago. This is history and has nothing to do with the current, concerted efforts to bring this country to its knees.

Yes we have had our problems but we as a nation have endured and learned from them and are still doing so.

We have "endured" until recently (post 9/11), at which point we were raped with the "Patriot" Act, and as we lay prostrate, we were lied to, and then further raped. We see legislation "quietly" passed that further erodes the principles upon which our country was built.

9/11 was a testament of how our nation might be divided with our own problems but when it comes to our nation being attacked we always pull together and become a nation of one.

9/11 was a testament to how easily we are controlled by the media. If the truth were to have been given to us when it happened, we would still have been united, but it would have been against the appropriate forces. As it was, our anger was channeled into getting us into two wars - and, gods, man! We KNOW one war was instigated on lies. Do you think the other one was not?

You can say what you want about 9/11 but you can't deny that after seeing those plans fly into those towers and them falling to the ground that this nation with all races was ready to fight anyone who stood in our way.

Yup. We were ready to fight anyone we were told was in our way. We were led like...er...sheep.

Say all you want about America but don't under estimate the hearts of the American people or write us off as being weak.

I think I tend to overestimate the hearts of those bent on our destruction.

[edit on 4/20/2008 by Amaterasu]

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by Air_Superiority

 

What aims, set out both prior too and since the invasion, have been met?

Aside from the disposal of Saddam, I think the invasion has fundamentally failed on it's stated objectives, ie; removing WMD (didn't exist), installing Democracy (far from it at the moment), stabilising the region (HAHAHA, no fudging way has this happened!) and reducing terrorism (terrorist acts have increased since 2003).

Not one objective has been met.

A military victory doesn't just stop when you've steam rolled over the enemy, if you haven't actually done what it was that caused you to steam roller them in the first place.

There is significant resistance from the populace against the presence there, the region is spiraling into more conflict and the risk of terrorism has actually increased. None of the War aims have been achieved, so by any definition, the campaign has failed.

[edit on 20/4/08 by stumason]

Propaganda has played a big part in most of those areas. As it has on most of your opinions.

Acts of terrorism in the region are mostly aimed at Iraqi civilians. Anti-american sentiment in Iraq is down now that more and more Awakening Councils are becoming active. They hate the conflict, not the Americans and as more and more realize that it's not the Americans it's the terrorists that are causing the conflict senitments follow.

Democracy is in place. The security is the issue. Just incase you forgot there has already been one democratic election of a prime minister.

I think you're forgetting that the main kick off of the civil problems we're Muslim initiated. The suicide bombing of the golden shrines.

I'm not saying everything is good and dandy over there and rolling just like we planned, but you cant say that progress isnt being made.

Maybe if you had ever set foot in Iraq or the middle east for that matter i'd take your opinion more seriously, but chances are the main sources of your information are media channels.

Originally posted by jkrog08
Let me state that some of you think I am a patriot-YES,I am.....as should all of you towards your many countries,if you are not than you need to delve deep into yourself and ask......"What do you stand for'?The truth?As Im sure many on here will say............The truth is only obtained by being one with your country..........I know that certain entities in the various world government are NOT truthful........but it is up to US to set the example.

The "example..." The example of what? And "The truth is only obtained by being one with your country..." Is this so if your country has been secretly taken over...? If it is promoting Gestapo-like police sweeps of multiple states? If it has stripped power from some and consolidated it into one position which they control? If it has given your power away?

Lastly,Some of you if not ALL of you probably misunderstood my intentions on this post.I am not saying the US is "almighty"and should "rule"the world.I am simply stating the fact that militarly we are the top power.Yes we have shortcomings

Shortcomings? The whole of our Constitution and Bill of Rights under intense attack, already eviscerated? By a small group of men? Who lied to us to get us into war to fill the coffers of corporations via war contracts? Who planned and executed an attack on us and then blamed a few crazy Arabs?

I'd say, shortcomings.

-as do every nation,no we do not go to war for the right reasons sometimes,and yes we do "over police"........but if any of you that reside in another country an claim your perfect I would like to hear it.I do not know the fate of the US..........I do fear it may get bad.,but again I have faith that "we the people"will stand up and uphold my country.As I hope for all other countries.

I don't think there are any countries that claim perfection... And if you think we will "stand up and uphold [our] country," then why did the worst piece of legislation happen ("Patriot" Act) and few did anything? Why didn't the media discuss the implications? Show us how we had been changed? Why are we now standing here powerless as more and more anti-American paperwork gets "quietly" signed and mandated?

However,I do believe that the US has the moral duty as the super power (militarly)to police and uphold civility of the planet.

Why?

However I know I feel safe and NEVER worry about a foreign force invading my country-can you say the same?

Do you believe the Official Conspiracy Theory? If you do, why do you believe this? If not, why aren't you up in arms?

If so than great,if not,than know-as you should the US is here-as it happens by fate we are the superpower,to protect you and uphold your values.

What?!? How arrogant! We are here to provide protection for the rest of the world? Uphold their values? What if their values differ from ours? What if they want us to leave them alone to make their own mistakes? All I see is us bullying other countries with unneeded preemptive strikes, declaring ourselves in better state to judge the needs, wishes and values of others than they themselves are.

We are forcing ourselves on other countries. Fine, if they ask for our help, but it's never help if not asked for.

If you are a "power"country...like France or Britain.......even if your country should fail to protect you from any unforseen(at this point)force.......we will be here to help....as we have in the past.

And if they don't ask for our help? If they don't want it? Heh. If we can see gain for us, we will give them "help" whether they want it or not.

[edit on 4/20/2008 by Amaterasu]

Originally posted by Charity
I thought September 11th had taught us all, but especially Americans, a little bit of humility.

Because for all the USA's military might, a gang armed with nothing more technologically advanced than boxcutters brought us to where we are today.

I like most of what you say, Charity, but if you still believe this lie... [shakes head sadly...]

reply to post by Amaterasu


Aye, ok. Point taken. I should've known better and stand corrected
I'm always receptive to the opinion of others.

Or am i ? Isn't this the point in the thread where I THREATEN TO BOMB YOUR NATION CUZ WE ARE THE BESTEST EVER ??

reply to post by Charity


LOL! True. Well, glad you have an open mind. [smile]