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Fresno Student Shot, Killed by Police Officer After Bat Attack

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posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 08:16 AM
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reply to post by S1LV3R4D0
 


Thanks for the post and reading this thread completely. I will not run from this thread, instead I will just ignore those who have not read my previous post or I will have to constantly remind people to read the whole thread as I no longer have the same perspective on this case that I did in my op. And thank you for telling people that as well. If I did not have thick skin I would have just erased what I said last night in the first place, and nobody would have known what I said. I left it up there because I have no reason to hide what I said or to deny I said it, but I want people to read the entire thread, or its not worth posting a reply to my op. I have only posted one thread as big as this so far and it got 85 replies, so I am fairly new and do not want to make enemies that fast, but I still will not hide what I said period.

Now on the story, I didn't know how bad of a school it was, or that the kid was a gang banger. If he was a gang banger than his motives were pretty clear then, kill the cop. I should have done my research before posting this thread. Why do kids like this go to school anyway?

And to respond to your comment about medal detectors and cops in school, they do not belong in school. It is a shame that schools have to protect the good students from the bad ones. But its a reality nowadays.

When I was in school we learned how to fight with our fists, and if we got caught fighting we got suspended thats it. You could kick the # out of the guy and no one gets killed. But these damn gang bangers, shoot or in this case swing to kill. It has gotten out of hand, degenerate loonies and gangs terrorizing the schools, blasting their own classmates and teachers and it seems to just get worse and more frequent. There also seems to be no solution, no possible way to stop a kid on the brink of chaos. Why don't we know how to deal with our own children?

I don't know what you mean by why do the schools have to raise my perverbial kids, I never said they did. Parents should raise their own kids, and children should know how to act in school before they even go to kindergarten. Why do parents fail to raise the children? I have no clue. I wish I did.

I do not have kids as I am only 22, but if I did I would kick the crap out of him/her if I found out he/she was in a gang, or terrorizing anybody, but I guess some parents are as big of pieces of shi* if not bigger than their own children. Whether or not that was the case here I don't know, but it seems like a reoccuring problem everwhere in America today.

One question for people who don't live in America, is this kind of thing as big of a problem in your country as it is in mine? Do you see similar reports on your tv frequently?

**** all these gun toting hip gangster wannabes --- MJK

I could not have put it better




[edit on 18-4-2008 by schism85]




posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 08:32 AM
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Originally posted by schism85
When I was in school we learned how to fight with our fists, and if we got caught fighting we got suspended thats it. You could kick the # out of the guy and no one gets killed.


Times have certainly changed. In my day, if caught fighting, a coach had the participants show up at the gym after school and put on the gloves. The two could finish off their disagreement on a more level field so to speak.



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 08:36 AM
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reply to post by mattifikation
 


I have erased what I wrote because you did not read my previous posts and someone already informed you of that before I wrote this. So I will not be rude.





[edit on 18-4-2008 by schism85]



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 08:53 AM
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reply to post by roadgravel
 


And that is awesome!! Why don't more Americans think this way?? What happened to the old after school boxing programs?

What year are we talking about here anyways?

There should be more after school boxing programs, but the schools would never allow it nowadays. It would be good for students to get out their aggressions in a constructive manner like boxing. I for one would have loved that in high school.

[edit on 18-4-2008 by schism85]



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 09:13 AM
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There is, as seems to be the case more and more often, a link to anti-depressants also.

Btw, Roosevelt is my Alma-Mater, class of '85.

Cop was defending his own life, period.

[edit on 18-4-2008 by FewWorldOrder]



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 09:30 AM
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reply to post by schism85
 


That was back in the 70s. There are (were) inner city boxing gyms for that purpose but one doesn't hear about them as much anymore.

I suspect it's cooler to use guns to even a score and less chance for injury in the eyes of these kids prone to violence. A sad state of affairs.



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 10:03 AM
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reply to post by FewWorldOrder
 


And its sad to say many children nowadays are turning into these crazed litium dolls or whatever anti-depressant they are giving kids nowadays. I have taken anti-depressants for months and all they did were cause me diffrent problems. I had to learn to deal with my own problems in my mind by maturing into an adult, and realizing that one: Iam not alone and two: no problem is too great that I cannot overcome it. Once I came to those conclusions myself, I learned life was not as difficult as I made it seem in my own head. Imao anti-depressants do not help, and only fuel the fire. Some people it probably worked for, but I can only go off my own experiences and others that I know.

[edit on 18-4-2008 by schism85]



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 10:28 AM
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Well, looks like im not the only central valley-an around here.

San Joaquin Valley represent!!! lol

And here i thought i was the only one from fresno. Rock On.

Anywhoooo, Glad you came back to participate in your ongoing discussion schizm.



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 10:46 AM
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reply to post by schism85
 


Yeah, IMO, most "doctors" are merely salesman for Big Pharmas' multitude of semi-tested snake-oils that only substitute one symptom for another (or several others!) and never really address the causes of these symptoms.
I believe the most severe drug problem in this country has been prescribed for profit.

Just say NO to drugs...., unless they are prescribed by our "doctors"...

I understand people are responsible for their own behavior, however, when those we are told to trust administer drugs they say will alleviate our symptoms, and the drugs have unknown side-effects that we are not informed about, who's responsible now?



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 11:14 AM
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reply to post by S1LV3R4D0
 


Howdy neighbor, Rock On indeed...

Glad to make your aquaintance.

...back to the thread...



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 11:16 AM
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reply to post by FewWorldOrder
 


I know I sure don't trust any shrink. I feel sorry for those who are not informed and completly trust a shrink simply because he has a degree. Its only natural to trust what your shrink tells you and many people never question his/her recommendations. I for one do, ever since I was perscribed anti-depressants, took them and made things worse as it did for many people I know. I think shrinks are intelligent hired friends, who know nothing about you and whats going in your head. Completely usless to me anyways. So I stoped going and look at me now. I'm fine and somewhat sane.



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 11:19 AM
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Despite what some people think,if you ask anyone in law enforcement,the only reason you shoot someone is to use deadly force,that stuff they show on TV where they shoot gun out of someones hand is a joke



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 11:34 AM
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reply to post by schism85
 


I didn't read through the whole thread yet, but I would like to sound off here to link it in my subscriptions. For the record, and as some of you may already know, I was recently the victim of police brutality. You can read about it in my thread How Jackinthbox Got Jacked Up by the Police. But that fact is counterbalanced by the fact that I have worked, in a professional capacity, very closely with the police and often in uniform as well. Furthermore, there are many officers in my family.

Having said all of that, let me get specific on this story.



Where was the officers mace?


Pepper spray would have been tactically dangerous in that situation. Deadly force was being used against him, and therefore warranted a return use of such force. Pepper spray could easily have further incapacitated the officer who was using it in that situation. Even in the best situations, the officer applying the pepper-spray will also suffer some ill-effects. All it takes is a breeze in the wrong direction really.



Where was his back up?


This is a very good question, but the reality is that the situation may have erupted within seconds. The officer might not have realized how dangerous the situation actually was going into it. Even if he had called for backup, they may still have been enroute while he was being attacked.

I wonder where campus security was.

You might also think that the people standing around might have jumped in to help the cop, but it's probably a good thing that no one else got involved, as thay may have gotten killed by accident.



Why didn't the officer shoot to disarm or incapacitate this student, instead of taking his life?


This is a myth perpetuated by the movies. You don't draw a firearm to wound someone. You shoot to kill, or you choose a different method. Shoot to wound, you wind up being the dead one. Never pull a gun unless you have decided to kill someone. If they don't happen to die, good for them, but a firearm is not a weapon for incapacitation.



I don't think enough cops are properly trained for this type of situation, and non-lethal bullets should be more widley used.


Rubber bullets are for crowd control.

What if the officer finds themself suddenly in a situation where they are being shot at. Should they first take the time to unload rubber bullets from their weapon, before returning some lead?

Non-lethal bullets negate the purpose of an officer's weapon. There are other non-lethal weapons that is at an officer's disposal, should the situation warrant the use of less-than-deadly force.



I mean he could'nt even pull out his own gun without the clip falling out.


This actually goes to show how critical the situation had become. Control of the officer's weapon was questionable. What of the suspect had gotten hold of the gun? Clearly the officer was injured and dazed. His life was directly in danger. The lives of innocent civilians would have been in jeopardy had the perp seized the officers firearm.



That reeks of incompetence.


I very much disagree. I wonder how well anyone can perform a task when they are being beaten in the head with a wooden bat.



Maybe this student was having a bad day, maybe he did make some poor decisions, but he did not have to pay the high price that he did...


A sad situation indeed, but clearly not the fault of the officer in this case.



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 11:56 AM
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Here I just read this:

The next year, however, Carrizales' 10 brothers and sisters noticed he had become withdrawn, and the family decided he would do better at an alternative school where he could pursue independent study. He was prescribed Lexapro and Geodon, drugs used to treat depression, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, and in January he transferred to Roosevelt High, said his sister Elisa Ortega.


Here is the link: Updated story

Now is Roosevelt high an alternative school meaning a behavior school? Like if you get kicked out of regular school you go there?

I have been in a behavior school since 7th grade untill I finally left school to pursue something worth my time as a sophmore. The schools I've been in were horrible. There were like 8 kids to a class room with 2 teachers and they had little rooms or cells where if a student acted up they restrained him/her and swept them to the floor and carried them to the little cell untill they calmed down. The would call for back up by screaming in the hall for extra teachers to assist them.

I can tell you one thing, I could not concentrate at all in that school because everyone did not care and was acting like animals. It was like school in a juvinile detention center or something. I got kicked out of my normal school in 7th grade for missing too many days, so they sent me to an alternative school, and I became worse then I already was.

But again it goes to show this guy was clearly screwed up in the head.

[edit on 18-4-2008 by schism85]



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 12:02 PM
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reply to post by schism85
 


Even a lot of regular public schools today are run like prisons. Conformity is the only lesson they demand that oyu learn. The rest of it is window dressing.

The behavioral drugs are bad news too.



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 12:24 PM
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reply to post by jackinthebox
 


I just wanted to let you know I read your post when you first posted it and saw the pictures. That is messed up, I was a victim of police brutality too when I was only 13yrs old. They throw me around the station, hit me with my own belt, and put a gun to my head just because I had a small amount of smoke in my pocket. Then they told me to lie about it, I was so confused as to what to do and I felt horrible. So I told my mom right in front of all the officers when she came to pick me up. Big mistake!!

3 months later I recieved a court notice saying I had to appear before a judge because I caused bodily harm to a peace officer. I never hit that cop once, not once. I knew they were just covering their own behinds. I plead guilty as my lawyer advised me to and I was sentenced to five years of probation which I violated two times for missing school and sent to the juvinille detention center twice.

I never seemed to get over it as it is apparent in this thread. I could never look at the police the same again, as Iam sure it hard for you to do the same. I just jumped to a conclusion way too fast on this one, and I saw that yesterday.



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 01:01 PM
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reply to post by schism85
 


I really don't blame you for jumping to conclusions. Your case is precisely the level of damage that goes unseen when the police abuse their power. It seems that the one incident has dominated your life ever since.

The first time I was beat up by the police, I was fourteen. I wouldn't snitch on a black guy that I had talked into buying me a 40 of Crazy Horse. Except for being "marked" by those few officers in future situations, the situation happened and ended in the station house. I told my Mom, but she just didn't know what to do about it.



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by schism85
 


I really don't blame you for jumping to conclusions. Your case is precisely the level of damage that goes unseen when the police abuse their power. It seems that the one incident has dominated your life ever since.




Thank you. This incident has dominated my life ever since and it is terrible that cases like ours go unnoticed by the public. But I do have to say I have had one good experience with the police. I was pulled over by a state trooper, and given a ticket for doing 25 over the speed limit. The cop seemed like he felt bad for busting me and told me when I had to go to court he would be on vacation, and to plead not guilty. He said he wasn't sure if that would get me off but, it did. I plead not guilty and he was on vacation, they checked my driving record to see if it was clean. It was and they let me off the hook. Maybe I have to realize that there are good cops out there too, that they are all not crooked. I'll try to trust the police and still be weary of them at the same time.

P.S. Codex is always on my mind. I will be growing my own garden soon and trying to not be dependent of supermarket food for vitamins and minerals. I have warned everyone I know about codex but they think I am crazy. Did you know there is an internet petition you can sign trying to stop codex on healthfreedomusa.org? I don't think it will do anything but it didn't hurt to sign it.







[edit on 18-4-2008 by schism85]



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 01:31 PM
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reply to post by schism85
 


There will always be good cops and bad cops. I am reminded of a story someone shared here on ATS about a cop that they hated, who actually saved their life one day.

What I fear most today, is the police-state mentality and social climate. Even the Gestapo didn't know they were the bad guys after all. It's possible to be on the wrong side doing the wrong things for all the right reasons.

You can even see the difference between the old cops and the young cops. It's not a matter of age or experience that necessarily make the difference. It is the training, and how they are taught to interpret their settings.



posted on Apr, 18 2008 @ 01:42 PM
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reply to post by jackinthebox
 


I see what your saying. I have always tried to think of it that way too. I was doing bad things in my life at that time, and those cops knew me. I guess in their own minds they were doing the right thing by trying to teach me a lesson in the wrong way. And in retrospect I have become a better person because of it, I was too scared to go back to the town I was getting in trouble in and I never did. But I never forgave the department for what happened either and I did not see them as saving me from myself even though they did see it that way. Its like a cop planting evidence on a criminal, they see it as being justified because he is a criminal anyways, and they are just fighting a war, but in reality they are no different then the criminals they are busting and are losing the war because of it.

[edit on 18-4-2008 by schism85]




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