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Free Tibet? Hell, free America!

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posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 03:38 PM
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"Usually children die as collateral damage."

So if im robbing a gas station and kinda shoot a kid whilst loading oil into my car . Its just collateral damage eh?

As long as im there for the oil tho right? Or how does it work again?

Btw . Don't execute mean "to carry out" ?

[edit on 17-4-2008 by d11_m_na_c05]




posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 03:39 PM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


Who says that the "systems of government" works in other countries better than it does here ? Europe is a socialist hole where half the people dont work. The American economy eclipses any country in Europe or Asia. Half of European companies are owned by American firms. Most Europeans hope to come to America to escape the stifling taxation and Islamification of Europe.

Dont delude yourself that there are some islands of fantasy where everything "works". Even the much envied Scandinavian countries have Islamic death squads that vow to kill journalists and riot for weeks on end.

[edit on 17-4-2008 by IAF101]



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by d11_m_na_c05
"Usually children die as collateral damage."

So if im robbing a gas station and kinda shoot a kid whilst loading oil into my car . Its just collateral damage eh?

As long as im there for the oil tho right? Or how does it work again?

Btw . Don't execute mean "to carry out" ?

[edit on 17-4-2008 by d11_m_na_c05]


No you decided to pull the trigger with the gun facing a child. That is premeditated. Plus robbing a gas station is a crime. So that is armed robbery plus murder. They could even add aggravated assault if you beat up the store clerk to get him to give you the gas.



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 03:45 PM
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reply to post by IAF101
 


Since you have no clue what premeditated means .
I will just chose to ignore your messages now.

Justify murder however you want. It's still murder..



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by IAF101
 



The crime for which Patterson was executed, was committed when he was 17 years of age and still a juvenile. At that time, the U.S. Supreme Court applied its earlier ruling in Stanford vs. Kentucky 492 U.S. 361 1989 where Justice Scalia concluded that there was neither "a historical nor a modern societal consensus forbidding the imposition of Capital Punishment of any person who murders at 16 or 17 years of age".

Justice Scalia further found that such Capital Punishment "does not offend The Eighth Amendment’s prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment".

source

pb.rcpsych.org...

More
Enough said.

Torture in abu ghraib was committed, and is STILL being committed.

I find your view of the violence promulgated by the US leaders in the name of freedom to be naive in the extreme.

Yeah, the US leaders just LOVE freedom - that's why they're SUCH good friends with saudi.

Follow the money.

[edit on 17/4/2008 by budski]



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 03:50 PM
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reply to post by budski
 


And... that there is no collusion between China and Iran:





[edit on 17-4-2008 by dk3000]



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 04:02 PM
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reply to post by dk3000
 


Of course not - Iran is the enemy, they couldn't possibly have any friends.

Except for Lebanon
Syria
China
Russia
India
Pakistan (dodgy ally)
Iraq
Afghanistan
venezuela
North Korea

and probably others who just don't advertise the fact


But this isn't about iran, this is about how the US is bending its citizens over...

[edit on 17/4/2008 by budski]



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 04:40 PM
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Starred and flagged. I agree with you that there are a lot of things wrong with this country, but our biggest problem is the apathy. All of the gripes in the article you posted were right on, but has that person stood up and done anything. We do still live in a democracy, and in that democracy you will have freedoms that lead to the nut jobs coming out of the wood work and exercising their right to free speech.

I am an activist, I have faught for the welfare of all animals, the environment, the ACLU (I Know a lot about wrongful prosecution in Texas) and now Tibet. The difference between the two countries is you have a right to fight for what you believe, Tibet does not. Those chinese products are also a choice.



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by IAF101
Torture is illegal in the US. Gitmo is NOT in the US. Its a loophole that exists. Moreover you have ZERO proof to show that there was every torture in Gitmo.


You're wrong.


War Crimes Act of 1996:

The law defines a war crime to include a "grave breach of the Geneva Conventions", specifically noting that "grave breach" should have the meaning defined in any convention (related to the laws of war) to which the U.S. is a party. The definition of "grave breach" in some of the Geneva Conventions have text that extend additional protections, but all the Conventions share the following text in common: "... committed against persons or property protected by the Convention: willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health."

The law applies if either the victim or the perpetrator is a national of the United States or a member of the U.S. armed forces. The penalty may be life imprisonment or death. The death penalty is only invoked if the conduct resulted in the death of one or more victims.

It doesn't matter that it was done in GITMO, it was done by US citizens.


Regarding if there's any proof of torture being done in GITMO, it doesn't matter if it was done in GITMO, the US or any other prisons. It was done, and it was admitted already.

CIA admits waterboarding inmates (Tuesday, 5 February 2008):

The CIA has for the first time publicly admitted using the controversial method of "waterboarding" on terror suspects.

CIA head Michael Hayden told Congress it had only been used on three people, and not for the past five years.



U.N. rights envoy suspects CIA of Guantanamo torture

GENEVA (Reuters) - A United Nations investigator said on Thursday he strongly suspected the CIA of using torture on terrorism suspects at Guantanamo Bay, suggesting many were not being prosecuted to keep the abuse from emerging at trial.



New Charges of Gitmo Torture

In 2005, CIA officials ordered the destruction of videotapes depicting the harsh interrogation of prisoners in the agency's secret overseas prisons.



edit: additional links

[edit on 17-4-2008 by danx]



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 05:12 PM
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reply to post by Witness2008
 


I think the problem of electorate apathy is one that many western countries have - maybe this is why the leaders feel they can do whatever they want.

Too many people are caught in the modern NOW lifestyle to notice that their freedoms and liberties are slowly being eroded and that crimes are being committed.

Or maybe they just don't care...



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 05:17 PM
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While I agree with alot of the things that have been posted, I'm confused as to where the breaking news story is....


reply to post by danx
 


If waterboarding can be labeled as torture, then so can just about any unpleasant interrogation techniques used anywhere. Using the definition of the law in the link you provided, how can one truly measure "great suffering"? I can see how injury can be measured, but suffering? One could argue that even the act of capturing somebody and imprisoning them causes "great suffering".



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by danx

Originally posted by IAF101
Torture is illegal in the US. Gitmo is NOT in the US. Its a loophole that exists. Moreover you have ZERO proof to show that there was every torture in Gitmo.


You're wrong.

No you are wrong. I will use your own links to prove so too.



War Crimes Act of 1996:

The law defines a war crime to include a "grave breach of the Geneva Conventions", specifically noting that "grave breach" should have the meaning defined in any convention (related to the laws of war) to which the U.S. is a party. The definition of "grave breach" in some of the Geneva Conventions have text that extend additional protections, but all the Conventions share the following text in common: "... committed against persons or property protected by the Convention: willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health."


Terrorists are not covered by the convention. Only civilians and military personnel. There is no mention that these rights also extended to cover terrorists.
Read the conventions yourself.




Regarding if there's any proof of torture being done in GITMO, it doesn't matter if it was done in GITMO, the US or any other prisons. It was done, and it was admitted already.

CIA admits waterboarding inmates (Tuesday, 5 February 2008):

The CIA has for the first time publicly admitted using the controversial method of "waterboarding" on terror suspects.

CIA head Michael Hayden told Congress it had only been used on three people, and not for the past five years.


The President has already said that "waterboarding" is NOT torture and so has the department of defense. Have you read the news or only bits that suit your world view ?



Waterboarding is A-ok
........
Waterboarding currently falls under guidelines known as enhanced interrogation techniques both for U.S. and international law. Other methods of these interrogation techniques include sleep deprivation, being subjected to the cold, standing for long periods of time and even slapping.




U.N. rights envoy suspects CIA of Guantanamo torture

GENEVA (Reuters) - A United Nations investigator said on Thursday he strongly suspected the CIA of using torture on terrorism suspects at Guantanamo Bay, suggesting many were not being prosecuted to keep the abuse from emerging at trial.



Note the Term "SUSPECTS". Speculation nothing more.



New Charges of Gitmo Torture

In 2005, CIA officials ordered the destruction of videotapes depicting the harsh interrogation of prisoners in the agency's secret overseas prisons.




Does NOT prove there was any torture. Just proves that they destroyed the tapes. Circumstance cannot be used to prove guilt.



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by 27jd
If waterboarding can be labeled as torture, then so can just about any unpleasant interrogation techniques used anywhere. Using the definition of the law in the link you provided, how can one truly measure "great suffering"? I can see how injury can be measured, but suffering? One could argue that even the act of capturing somebody and imprisoning them causes "great suffering".


If you don't mind me asking and this is not pertinent at all for my argument, but, in your opinion, you don't think waterboarding is torture? To make someone feel like they are drowning?

But anyway, one thing is clear: waterboarding is not allowed by the Geneva Conventions.



(Article 17): "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."


No one forced the United States (and other countries) to sign the Geneva Conventions. So, by those standards, laws have been broken.

If the President or anyone else doesn't agree with what's in the Geneva Conventions, then I suggest them to retract their signature or do whatever is necessary to reject the Geneva Conventions, because until then, the United States have agreed on following them.



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 05:37 PM
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Weird that we killed some Japanese for watter boarding . Then it was torture
But when we do it it isnt ? www.npr.org...

Also on that link the FULL history of watter boarding + victim accounts.

[edit on 17-4-2008 by d11_m_na_c05]



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 05:38 PM
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Yeah, our country is pretty screwed up, religion has nothing to do with it though, it is just a tool used to manipulate the masses, because Christians have lost there roots, what the truth behind there beliefs are. Now all Christians do is feed from a troth of lies spilled from a "prosparity preaching", "America's tha best" and "kill all the arabs" pastors. The truth of Yeshua is mostly lost now days, it is a sad, sad thing. If the Prez was a real Christian, we would've never went to war, we would've returned hate with love (assuming the official story is true, which it ain't). Did you know a number of past Prez including the current one are all part of a sick cult? Proves to me they are no Christians, you can't serve two masters.
I don't care who the next Prez is, all I know is our rights are slowly being chipped away and Americans are begging for it (not me of course). If Obama's the next Prez, the NAU will come into being and we will go to war with several countries, If Hillary's the next Prez, the NAU will come into being and we will go to war with several countries, If McCain's the next Prez, the NAU will come into being and we will go to war with several countries. There is no republican or democrat, they're just two sides or the same coin, it's a distraction. ATSers should band together instead of being seperated by TPTB by believeing in the whole, right, left lie.

-Jimmy



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 05:40 PM
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Let's get our priorities strait here. First we free Scotland, then North Ireland, then Whales, then America, then Tibet, then Iraq, then the rest of the rest of the Middle East. What? The rest of them need to be freed too...



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by budski
reply to post by IAF101
 



The crime for which Patterson was executed, was committed when he was 17 years of age and still a juvenile. At that time, the U.S. Supreme Court applied its earlier ruling in Stanford vs. Kentucky 492 U.S. 361 1989 where Justice Scalia concluded that there was neither "a historical nor a modern societal consensus forbidding the imposition of Capital Punishment of any person who murders at 16 or 17 years of age".

Justice Scalia further found that such Capital Punishment "does not offend The Eighth Amendment’s prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment".

source

pb.rcpsych.org...

More
Enough said.

How is execution of underage criminals inhumane ??
All his rights were observed. The legality of the judgment was even vindicated by the US supreme court as not being cruel and unusual punishment.
Since its neither cruel nor against his rights as an individual there is nothing wrong with this at all. Justice was served.




Torture in abu ghraib was committed, and is STILL being committed.

Any proof to back up your claims other than your speculation and your imagined crimes ?



I find your view of the violence promulgated by the US leaders in the name of freedom to be naive in the extreme.

I find your views of some conspiracy by US leaders against the American citizenry ludicrous and imbecilic. To claim that people are out on some personal agenda simply because they have risen to positions of prominence is illogical and crazy.


Yeah, the US leaders just LOVE freedom - that's why they're SUCH good friends with saudi.

Follow the money.

Yes, they love freedom thats why they love the rulers of Saudi Arabia. Because without those leaders in Saudi arabia the Wahhabists would turn that nation into Afghanistan redux and fund every Islamist nut who has a death wish. The need of the Saud Royal family to stay in power prosper has made them dependent on the USA, which inturn exercises its influence on them to clamp down on terrorist networks and activities within its borders.

You dont know the first thing about Saudi Arabia. Its better not to proclaim your fantastic world view as the truth. Little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
[edit on 17/4/2008 by budski]



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 05:51 PM
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Tibet and America are ruled by tyrants. No man is removing them. They're here to control us, and they have armies of greedy bastards & brainwashed thugs, who would gladly kill all of us for a certain amount of money. No one is freeing America or Tibet from the wicked people, who got us to accept their monetary-system: Bauer-Rothschild family & the people they support (the governments of every ambassador within the United Nations' ilk).



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by danx
If you don't mind me asking and this is not pertinent at all for my argument, but, in your opinion, you don't think waterboarding is torture? To make someone feel like they are drowning?


I don't mind at all. From my understanding of it, no, I don't. They are not actually drowning, they walk away shook up, but still uninjured. Plus, everybody knows about it, so how is anybody honestly going to think they're really drowning now? They know it's a mind game now, and mind games don't work when you are aware of them. I'd probably rather be waterboarded than sleep deprived personally, and sleep deprevation is permitted under the convention as far as I know. Having suffered insomnia in the past, I know personally that not sleeping for days causes great suffering. I'm giving my honest opinion on this subject, I hope that doesn't mean I'm going to be labeled as supporting our moronic president and his ass clown administration.



But anyway, one thing is clear: waterboarding is not allowed by the Geneva Conventions.



(Article 17): "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."


That, IMO, pretty much outlaws anything other than asking nicely once. Unpleasant treatment?? That can have such a broad definition that varies so widely from one person to another, like I said, just being a prisoner is unpleasant. Couldn't you argue that even taking POW's is unpleasant for the POW?

[edit on 17-4-2008 by 27jd]



posted on Apr, 17 2008 @ 06:07 PM
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Originally posted by 27jd
Plus, everybody knows about it now, so how is anybody honestly going to think they're really drowning now? They know it's a mind game now, and mind games don't work when you are aware of them.


If everybody knows about it, why would we think that waterboarding would give us significant or any information at all?

And, the reason why it should be considered torture is not so much the fact that they (might) think that they were going to drown, but the physical pain inflicted from it.

You don't think that 'terrorists' apply to the POW status, that's fine. We don't see eye to eye and we'll leave it at that I guess



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