Free Tibet? Hell, free America!

Tibet has been part of China for centuries before Amerigo Vespucci was even born. The CIA has probably fomented discord amongst a bunch of
newly minted college kids who can't wait to test their predatory ambitions on the general population right now. I think China wants to advance their culture w/o some of the garbage we have here like the John Waters Miss Divine creation and art that passes for art for no better reason than networking the business end of the trade or Quentin Tarantino making the kind of movies that a former video store clerk would make. That No Country For Old Men won the Oscar was an example, give me Into the Wild any day. I don't want Draconianism but there is just so much idiot culture here that it makes it hard to even avoid especially from the minds of the PT Barnum referenced bunches. Do you wear a cowboy hat? Then get away from me moron and go trick or treating somewhere. People probably think John Wayne really was a war hero. Maybe I'm a snob but I think its actually possible for something to be too stupid for general consumption. We really should go back to good old school taste, not metal and rap. My generation had Moody Blues, whats this generation got? Cold Play? Sometimes you just feel like Sarah Conner and the machines have become self aware.

Originally posted by EnlighteneSoul
Tibet has been part of China for centuries before Amerigo Vespucci was even born.

So what ? China was also part of Genghis Khan's empire. Are the comies going to hand over their power to the guys in Ulan Batar ??

Originally posted by budski
You do know which century we are in yes?
OF COURSE EXECUTING MINORS IS INHUMANE - are you a savage?

You do understand the meaning of the word "civilized"?

Apparently you think the word civilized means being a squeamish old woman. That is not my definition nor the rest of the world's.

Civilized implies following an ethical and equitable form of punishment where the punishments fit the crimes. Not wallowing in sentimentality about a criminals age or sexual orientation.

As they say Justice is Blind.

The world needs fewer borders not more. Borders do nothing but create neighbors with false sets of personal feelings of distinction. People with intentions that aspire to good faith should and do have a capacity for cooperation. People who have a desperate need to distinguish themselves at the expense of the collective good, which can be defined, are always the fly in the ointment. Take conservatives, the need to thump their chests and their less than quiet desperations somehow, in the face of empirical science, has floated this story that the greenhose effect is a liberal conspiracy. That mindset will get us all killed. Like Israel and Palestine theres not a dimes worth of difference between the people of Tibet and China -- people of the world for that matter, other than their primitive ancient mythologies they call religion. The world will be a better place when science becomes the true religion and people replace this emotionally potent oversimplification called freedom that republicans use as bait to get kids to enlist and get themselves killed for the sake of corporate profits. Nobody is special -- if anybody were special then everybody would be special and noone would be special.

As a native Chinese posting this from China I suggest a different point of view: let's forget about what the lama and his monks want for a moment (they are exiled rulers from a theocracy state), and try to picture want would the common people want?

If it was you, would you:

1. Been born either into slavery or practice religion for life... or:
2. At least have a choice, even if under the rule of the red flag.

I know two Tibetans in Beijing, one owns a bar in one of the most popular bar streets, and the other is in an underground rockbands. The above question is what the rocker asked me after I raised the question. And 'you are ignorant' was what he added to finish his sentence.

If you support human rights, then think the rights of the people actually in Tibet. Do you support Theocracy? Isn't that huge steps backwards compared to the Chinese 'Communist' party (which is becoming less and less communist-like everyday).

Also, if you guys want to pick a side, then really, do some research. The 'invasion' of Tibet is nothing more than an incident in the civil war after the rebellion, the use of force occurred only when the feudal lords refused to abandon serfdom. (To the person who quoted 1.5 million killed in the incident: check the population of Tibet before the invasion, and check the number of units deployed for the 'invasion', it was three infantry divisions of some 30K~50K men).

We who live in China are NOT happy with the current human rights conditions, and we are fighting for our freedom, as I am sure people are everywhere else. If you want to help that's totally cool, but please think on HOW you do it. Hosting the games is a chance for us to open up our country even more to the world and in turn more freedom for us, that is why we have so much hope for it (and the reform wing of the communist party hopes the same, to fight the hard line commies), and the benefits will be applied across the country include the Tibetans. When the world is asking us to give up roughly 25% of our country for a ticket to host the games, when the torch held by us are attacked everywhere, and when what we the people want to say are always considered 'brainwashed' views unless we are in agreement with your views, we'll consider it as racism, wouldn't you? US have invaded for reasons of 'nation is ran by druglord', 'nation lacks human rights', 'nation is ran by terrorist' and they are all ok. China took out a serfdom government and we are the only one who is evil? Is that not double standards?

At last, think why you want to support putting the dalai back on his throne and what you are supporting, please. If you just want to support your country to compete against ours, or that our cheap products are #, even those are OK if you say it as such for they are true. Putting all this under the flag of 'human rights' is hypocrisies and ridiculous, and in my opinion anti-human-right.

eeeeee...my penny's worth

ps, do some research on Dalai Lama himself, search on youtube on how he enforces his own religious oppressions on his own monks (he banned worships of several traditional buddas and have resorted to blackmail and murder to enforce the ban).

Originally posted by EnlighteneSoul
Tibet has been part of China for centuries before Amerigo Vespucci was even born.

So what ? China was also part of Genghis Khan's empire. Are the comies going to hand over their power to the guys in Ulan Batar ??



No but Mongolia was part of the Republic of China (now running the rogue province of Taiwan) and Inner-Mongolia is part of the People's Republic of China. Mongolia was split in half after WWII by the majors, mostly the soviets to create a strategic buffer or something like that.

Today, the official teachings of the PRC says Genghis Khan is 'Chinese'. His empire the Yuan Dynasty is considered one of the Chinese Dynasties. This is actually very easy to understand: the concept of 'Chinese' did not exist until the 1900's when the last empire collapsed. Chinese is NOT a nationality, it's a concept that means 'the people who ruled the land of China'.

Even more interesting is that the Han Chinese is not a nationality, it's also a concept. Han means 'The people who was part of the Han Empire' which existed some 2200 years ago (same time as Rome), it was established after 1000 years of continuous warfare in Asia that united what was once hundreds of independent states, many with unique nationalities (The warring states period). Still more interesting, is for a time Koreans were part of the Han Chinese 'nationality', as it was an province of the Han. Korea's capital, until ten years ago, was called 'The City of Han' in both Chinese and Korean, their river the 'River of Han'. Korea became an independent state (and then a puppet of whoever held the throne in China) after the Han dynasty collapsed.

I guess both my countrymen and Koreans will flame my ass for saying the above statements, but it should just be a piece of knowledge for you guys to grab . The history of Asia is extremely long and complex, but essentially works the same as Europe: government and religions try to rule, states fight for power. The biggest difference... well, imagine if Rome united the whole of Europe and instead of separating the Romans from the Barbarians they bought the people under one written language and one law with a centralized government, we would probably have a European country the size of China, the people of this country called the Euro or some other name, but essentially they would still be the French the British and the Germans (though if such empire did exist inter-nation-province marriage will blur the lines after a few hundred years).

What is China, it's that the Han Empire united hundreds of different 'nations' and created a nationality. My family tree says I am from Jiangxi the house of Hsu, one of the more barbaric states in central China ;D, conquered by the Han Empire so today, I'm Chinese. now back on topic, I know it's a rhetorical question but nobody is going to hand out power, that's what it is all about man.

woohooo

Bush is totally corrupted-inhuman person

China is doing their job to help tibet.But Tibet insisted that china human rights are bad.Cmon are they sicko or wat. China is not like North Korea.
It doesnt follow strict communism like stalinist dictatorships or Juche type.
Its socialist republic cmon.

reply to post by lordwedggie


Man, you make some good points. Liberating someone from oppression of religion is a noble cause. I don't know why so many over here in the West view things from a very polarized position, but they do. We are under the strangle hold of religion over here in the west too...here there is absolutely no regulation on big religion, they are allowed to do absolutely as they please with no checks or ethics and they literally get by with murder! Many of the branches of various Christian faiths over here in America have huge portfolios of investments into industry from everything from defense (war) to pornography, and nobody says a word about it, and the people keep showing up every Sunday for their weekly brain washing and all the while keep giving them freely their hard earned money...and then the worst part is that many of these same religions that rape the people, then get them to vote for the same crooks that back up the corruption...

So yeah, I hear your point. Americans would do well to rethink think things a little bit. Especially since we risk further souring of relations over such garbage....

My wish for China: find alternative energy; protect the environment; clean up the ecosystem; improve human rights. My wish for the West: The same thing!

Originally posted by lordwedggie

As a native Chinese posting this from China I suggest a different point of view: let's forget about what the lama and his monks want for a moment (they are exiled rulers from a theocracy state), and try to picture want would the common people want?

If it was you, would you:

1. Been born either into slavery or practice religion for life... or:
2. At least have a choice, even if under the rule of the red flag.

I know two Tibetans in Beijing, one owns a bar in one of the most popular bar streets, and the other is in an underground rockbands. The above question is what the rocker asked me after I raised the question. And 'you are ignorant' was what he added to finish his sentence.

LOL!!

What makes you think it is slavery ? Who are PRC to decide the fate of others ? They want what you consider slavery. That is they way they choose to live their life! That is freedom.........Something PRC can never offer!

I know 100,000+ Tibetans all outside China who think you are talking BS. Not to mention those hundreds of Tibetans, who are NOT monks, who were agitating for more autonomy. More freedom, more liberty. Something the Red flag cannot provide.

All these "explanations" are merely excuses. In America, we think that your Red flag is crap. Should we decide to impose our will on you ? Thats what you are doing to Tibetans. No more explanations, no more excuses.

Originally posted by lordwedggie

Originally posted by IAF101

Originally posted by EnlighteneSoul
Tibet has been part of China for centuries before Amerigo Vespucci was even born.

So what ? China was also part of Genghis Khan's empire. Are the comies going to hand over their power to the guys in Ulan Batar ??

No but Mongolia was part of the Republic of China (now running the rogue province of Taiwan) and Inner-Mongolia is part of the People's Republic of China. Mongolia was split in half after WWII by the majors, mostly the soviets to create a strategic buffer or something like that.

That "republic of China" exsisted for a few years where as the Khan empire exsisted for many centuries! Inner Mongolia, outer mongolia are recent history which is part of the aggressive tactics of the PRC and their thugs under Mao.

Originally posted by lordwedggie
Today, the official teachings of the PRC says Genghis Khan is 'Chinese'. His empire the Yuan Dynasty is considered one of the Chinese Dynasties. This is actually very easy to understand: the concept of 'Chinese' did not exist until the 1900's when the last empire collapsed. Chinese is NOT a nationality, it's a concept that means 'the people who ruled the land of China'.

Yeah, officially Mao is supposed to be an enlightened and great guy but in reality he was mass murdering commie who killed 40 million chinese just to get his way. The Nazi's also said Hitler was a great guy but the world knows different. What the PRC says about who is Chinese is not fact and not relevant.
Everybody knows that Genghis Khan was Mongolian, he was the only one who broke through that mud wall the Chinese hold so dearly and ravaged China, destroyed the Chinese empire that was in power and took what he wanted. He didnt speak Chinese, he didnt look chinese and he certainly want based in China. Even if you take today's boundaries, Genghis Khan's capital is just outside Ulan Batar.

And you are also wrong about the "concept" of Chinese. That is just BS you are spewing. Everybody in West Asia, Central Asia, Korea and JApan knew what Chin was. The people of Chin had a particular identity as Chinese since the fist emperor Chin of China. So the BS about there not being anything called "chinese" till the 1900 is just BS. There are THOUSANDS of records of the so called people of Chin who came to other lands- India, Persia, Central Asia, Mongolia, etc. Chinese was a distinct identity.

As for Chinese not being a nationality, you are right, it is a race. Other than that it all BS in your post.

Originally posted by lordwedggie
Even more interesting is that the Han Chinese is not a nationality, it's also a concept. Han means 'The people who was part of the Han Empire' which existed some 2200 years ago (same time as Rome), it was established after 1000 years of continuous warfare in Asia that united what was once hundreds of independent states, many with unique nationalities (The warring states period). Still more interesting, is for a time Koreans were part of the Han Chinese 'nationality', as it was an province of the Han.

The Han dynasty was NOT a concept. Who said it was a "nationality" ? It is a sect or group of people who consider themselves to be the real chinese.
As for Korea, it was under direct Chinese rule for a short period of time. In that way China was also under Western Rule and Japanese rule. Including cities like Shanghai, Nanjing etc.
Also, nobody considers Koreans as Chinese because Chinese have a different culture, their language which they all speak is different, their customs are completely different. Even under their various states, they still speak generally the same language! It is not different like Korean or Thai or Vietnamese!

Originally posted by lordwedggie
The history of Asia is extremely long and complex, but essentially works the same as Europe: government and religions try to rule, states fight for power. The biggest difference... well, imagine if Rome united the whole of Europe and instead of separating the Romans from the Barbarians they bought the people under one written language and one law with a centralized government, we would probably have a European country the size of China, the people of this country called the Euro or some other name, but essentially they would still be the French the British and the Germans (though if such empire did exist inter-nation-province marriage will blur the lines after a few hundred years).

Again bull.
First, Rome did do the whole centralized thing and bring the whole of Europe into the Roman way of doing things by enforcing Roman gods on people, Roman culture and even language. Such a state did exist!
But the underlying states were vastly different from what China was. These nations had their own unique culture and traditions that varied greatly from those in Rome. Some culture predated the Romans like the Greeks and others only accepted it for a short time.
Also despite these attempts by Rome the underlying culture still existed. Now China is a different story, the people there be their from some barbarian state or what not, still speak the same language, share the same cultural traits and even eat the same kind of food. While people like the Tibetans, Koreans, Japanese dont. They are different nations. Just like Mongolia and Mongolians dont speak Chinese even though they have so much interaction with the Chinese people through out the millenia. Because they are separate and different.

The question I was dealing with is historical claims. The PRC has none on Tibet. Thats my point.

Yeah eveybody know Genghis is Mongolian, except in 'Chinese' history he is recorded as Chinese, because historically the word is used to describe whoever lives in the land, not an ethic group or nation in the modern sense. that is my point.

Sure everybody knew what Chin was, the name of the ruling house of the central plain. If you actually read chinese/japanese history books, there was no mention of the word Chinese or China, instead China as we know it today was referred to by the ruling dynasty. Chin itself was considered a barbaric state before they created the first empire, same as the Mongol and the Manchu who also conquered the land in later times. You brought up the example of the Japanese invasion, that happened in modern time, but if it took place perhaps a hundred years earlier and if they did indeed conquer China by annexing the previous ruling house, and rule sometime, I think they would indeed be considered Chinese, at least that's what happened with the Mongol and Manchu conquest.

As for the bit on Language, Spoken language is drastically different in various parts of China, a person from the north will have NO IDEA if someone speaks Shanghainese, Cantonese, Sichuanese etc, it's a different language. After Chin a standardized version of written Chinese was created, so at least today we can communicate by writing, but even today, some of the local dialogs still retain even grammar differences than the standardized 'Mandarin' Chinese.

The Han Dynasty was indeed not a concept, the people of Han as an Ethic group is.

Lastly on your previous post, well I don't disagree, but I also don't think it's realistic. IMO the whole deal on the Tibet incident is extremely stupid, the Tibetans and their supporters, and of course the PRC. We don't even have freedom ourselves, you think our $#*@ government is gonna give it to the Tibetans?

Anyway, what I think could indeed be a load of bulls, they are opinions I formed after reading crap loads of history books (as a hobby). few ppl in China would agree with me either ~~